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Barnaby 01-02-2005 11:44 PM

Montoya
 
I'm really trying hard to smile about Montoya, but it's not easy. It's looking more and more like we blew it by passing up Olesz who has looked terrific in this tournament. I'm not giving up hope on Montoya by any means, but he has been very unimpressive. Most of us didn't like the pick, and it looks like we were right. We've all really supported him after the draft, but it's starting to feel unfounded. Montoya needs to be in the AHL next season, and Allaire should be there all the time to help him. The Russian loss isn't on him, but he certainly didn't make any big saves early to keep the US in it either. Hopefully he'll look better in the Bronze game - hopefully Olesz doesn't score on him AGAIN :banghead:

Montoya isn't expected to be Roy, but he should be a difference maker. I'd like to start seeing some of that myself. Hopefully this just looks like a stupid rant in a couple years...

barrel_master 01-03-2005 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnaby
I'm really trying hard to smile about Montoya, but it's not easy. It's looking more and more like we blew it by passing up Olesz who has looked terrific in this tournament. I'm not giving up hope on Montoya by any means, but he has been very unimpressive. Most of us didn't like the pick, and it looks like we were right. We've all really supported him after the draft, but it's starting to feel unfounded. Montoya needs to be in the AHL next season, and Allaire should be there all the time to help him. The Russian loss isn't on him, but he certainly didn't make any big saves early to keep the US in it either. Hopefully he'll look better in the Bronze game - hopefully Olesz doesn't score on him AGAIN :banghead:

Montoya isn't expected to be Roy, but he should be a difference maker. I'd like to start seeing some of that myself. Hopefully this just looks like a stupid rant in a couple years...

I thought that Olesz was too young to be drafted. Also, it's far too early to say if he's going to be great or if he's going to suck no matter what. Keep in mind, Fleury didn't do so great for Canada either his second time around.

Barnaby 01-03-2005 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrel_master
I thought that Olesz was too young to be drafted. Also, it's far too early to say if he's going to be great or if he's going to suck no matter what. Keep in mind, Fleury didn't do so great for Canada either his second time around.

Olesz was drafted by Florida last draft right after Montoya. I still think Montoya will be good. I was just venting because the guy I thought would be the better pick is doing so well ;)

True Blue 01-03-2005 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnaby
I'm really trying hard to smile about Montoya, but it's not easy. It's looking more and more like we blew it by passing up Olesz who has looked terrific in this tournament. I'm not giving up hope on Montoya by any means, but he has been very unimpressive. Most of us didn't like the pick, and it looks like we were right. We've all really supported him after the draft, but it's starting to feel unfounded.

First of all, the "most of us" comment is not quite accurate. A good amount of us liked the pick and still do. Second of all, while no, he is not having a great tournament, but who is on the US team? Atlanta's Lehtonen is not doing too hot this year either. Think that anyone is not happy that he is a draft pick of their team?
Montoya will be just fine. Olesz, while looking good, is beginning to scare me with his head issues. He looks to be a hit or two away from the dreaded case of being dogged with concussion related issues.

Levitate 01-03-2005 07:29 AM

montoya did make several big saves to keep the US in it...i don't know what you're talking about there

also i think they need to never televise these games again because people spaz out about them wayyyyyyyyyy too much. these are young young players who are nowhere CLOSE to their potential and are still developing right now. montoya is a great talent and could be a great goalie...but it's way too early to say for sure if he'll pan out and one tournament (or even one season at this point) is not enough to make a good judgement. like i've said...if he goes back and plays poorly for the rest of the season, and plays the same way next year, etc...then i'll worry. considering he's had a very good NCAA career to this point and had a great tournament last year...this looks for all the world to just be a letdown year after a great one last year. IMO this year has been the exception, not the rule with montoya, and right now he has to prove he sucks, not prove that he's a good player (if that makes sense to anyone)

Broadway Brett 01-03-2005 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnaby
Olesz was drafted by Florida last draft right after Montoya. I still think Montoya will be good. I was just venting because the guy I thought would be the better pick is doing so well ;)

I said that Olesz was the 3rd best player in the draft. I should be the GM, I certainly couldn't do worse.

OT: Will ESPN televise the US-Czech game tonight? They said that they would televise every US game. And what about the Russia-Canada game? I thought that they televised the gold medal game regardless of who is playing. It didn't sound like they would televise these games, but I just want to check.

Fletch 01-03-2005 08:21 AM

Barnaby...
 
the kid's 19 years old. I don't think we should expect a goalie to really hit his stride, especially in the NHL, for several more years. It'll be another 2-3 years at least until one can fairly say we made a mistake passing on Olesz. It's way too soon. We may sing a different tune if Blackburn doesn't full recover and Lundqvist either doesn't come over or doesn't have the same success in the NHL as the SEL, and Montoya's the only young goalie prospect in the system.

John Flyers Fan 01-03-2005 09:01 AM

While I think it was a mistake for the Rangers to select Montoya with the 6th overall pick, one poor two week tournament doesn't mean that Montoya won't become a very good NHL goalie.

GKJ 01-03-2005 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
While I think it was a mistake for the Rangers to select Montoya with the 6th overall pick, one poor two week tournament doesn't mean that Montoya won't become a very good NHL goalie.

It doesn't, but this is how it's been all season for him.


You know how people complained about Cechmanek on the Flyers board ;) It's been that type of season.

Sather Hater 01-03-2005 09:45 AM

It's one tournament relax. He's not gonna get a shutout every game and make 50 saves. He's gonna have his good days and bad days, that's part of hockey and the goalie position is the most visible on the ice, because when he makes a mistake it goes on the scoreboard. When a forward or defenseman makes a mistake it's no big deal like when Kessel tried carrying the puck up the ice and lost the puck atleast 5 times last night, nobody talks about it the next day, but if he was a goalie and let up some soft goals he would be a bust.

What was important to me was watching Montoya play. I was impressed with his stance and movement in the net. When in the butterfly position he is able to push off and move across the net nicely. He still has a lot to learn but for a 19yr old but he has very good fundamentals.

He is a little to aggresive playing the puck though. He likes to play the puck, but is not the most skilled at handling the puck and as a result gave it away atleast twice that I can think of that almosted resulted in empty net goals. But as he matures and gets stronger he will be able to play the puck smarter and put some more muscle on it when he tries making the long pass. Secondly I noticed when he is down on his back it looks like it took him a second or two more than needed to get back up on his feet and into the play (on wrap arounds too he was out of position on the occasional play). This is stuff that he will get better at and learn though, he is only 19.

FLYLine24 01-03-2005 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sather Hater
It's one tournament relax. He's not gonna get a shutout every game and make 50 saves. .


Hes Not!?!? :eek: ;)

Graveytrain 01-03-2005 11:31 AM

Still not seeing where Montoya is a great talent.... a nice goaltending prospect yes, but one that is 4-5 years away from making a dent in the NHL

It seemed during the tournament most of his better saves were made thru agressiveness... swiping a puck before the shooter moved to the backhand, challenging along the side of the net because the shooter had very little time, ect...I was not impressed with relfexes or abilty to move in the net... A couple nice passes cross ice or a good offensive move and there would be lot of open net to find

He seemed like a flopper to me, without much of a set style....often struggling to get from one side of the net to the other, to the point where he was often swimming like a fish...I couldn't tell whether he was a standup or butterfly tender either...

Overall assessment-very unimpressive... Don't see how anyone could come away with a different conclusion.... If you were looking for evidence of a Star in the making, you've got to be dissappointed

True Blue 01-03-2005 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graveytrain
If you were looking for evidence of a Star in the making, you've got to be dissappointed

Likewise, if you are looking for evidence of a Bust in the making, you've got to be dissappointed. Certainly cannot tell from just this one tournament. The bottom line is that those people who are looking for him to be a bust so that they can break their arms patting each other on the back, will find reasons to gloat.

drewcon40 01-03-2005 11:45 AM

We may not even have to worry about Montoya. He is still a highly touted prospect but if everything aligns right. Montoya can work at Michigan and the Wolfpack for a few years. While this is going on, we can try and figure out if Lundqvist can be a successful North American/NHL goalie. Lundqvist is 22 years old so he isn't "old" by any stretch. If I had to make a prediction, I'd predict that Lundqvist is the goalie of the future and Montoya is traded for a highly rated prospect, maybe a high pick in an upcoming draft. He won't be traded for an over 30 "superstar". As far as Blackburn goes, let's see how he does in Charlotte.

Graveytrain 01-03-2005 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Likewise, if you are looking for evidence of a Bust in the making, you've got to be dissappointed. Certainly cannot tell from just this one tournament. The bottom line is that those people who are looking for him to be a bust so that they can break their arms patting each other on the back, will find reasons to gloat.


Not so sure about that... You don't need to watch dozens of games to see a players raw ability. You can get a pretty good idea of it after a handful of games...

I can't tell from your post if you believe i want him to be a bust, i did say i think he is a good prospect... but Ranger fans were not looking to see a good prospect, they were looking for a soon to be star, maybe even more then that, because thats what most in the hockey world made him out to be...

Maybe the expectations were too great, not just for the tournament but his talent level overall....very disappointing

AG9NK35DT8* 01-03-2005 12:23 PM

IMO...............

Montoya = OverRated

Thata always been my opion,Montoya is good but not worth the #6 overall.At one time there was a rumor with L.A and NYR weather its true or not I dont know.But I do believe if true NYR would have turned it down.Why , once again I DONT KNOW.

To NYR:M.Camalleri and 11th pick (Tukonen)
To L.A:#6 overall (Montoya)

Barnaby 01-03-2005 01:23 PM

I'm not saying he's a bust ;) I've been sticking up for him constantly.

It's just a little frustrating. The best sign to me is that his two best games were the two biggest games. I'm not losing faith in him, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I am a bit less confident then I was pre-WJC. Sure, he came up big late against Russia, but where was he early in the game? I don't even expect to see him in the NHL for 3 years, but I was hoping that he would show a glimpse of what he could be. I didn't see that. I know he's 19, and he's got a long way to go. My problem was how many soft goals and inconsistent games can you have? Oh well, it's only one pretty short tournament so hopefully he can come out strong when he gets back to Michigan.

Here's to keeping the hope alive ;)

True Blue 01-03-2005 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graveytrain
Not so sure about that... You don't need to watch dozens of games to see a players raw ability. You can get a pretty good idea of it after a handful of games...

And based upon his entire amatuer career you do not think that he is a good prospect? How so?

"but Ranger fans were not looking to see a good prospect, they were looking for a soon to be star, maybe even more then that, because thats what most in the hockey world made him out to be..."

NO ONE made him out to be that. Fans saw what they wanted to and made their own assumptions and guesses. And now, becuase of a handfull of not-so-great games in the tournament, all of a sudden he is not going to be a star or even a good player. Heck, just what is it that is going to make Lehtonen a star and Montoya not? Not like the former is having a great year. Point being is that it is too early to tell.

"Maybe the expectations were too great, not just for the tournament but his talent level overall....very disappointing"

Aside from Kessel, who on the US team is not disappointing?

"Montoya = OverRated"

Based on......what exactly?

"Montoya is good but not worth the #6 overall"

And who was better? Certainly not Tukonen. Olesz? Something about him made him drop completely off the Rangers charts.

This is why the NHL needs to come back. And soon. With no Rangers to complain about, people are beginning to try to find fault with an underage prospect playing in an underage tournament (with absolutely no defense to speak of in front of him).

Chief 01-03-2005 02:38 PM

I'm a big Montoya backer but he hasn't looked as good in this WJC or regular season as he did last season, but that doesn't mean that the guy is a bust. Look at the 6 players picked after Montoya: Olesz, Picard, Smid, Valabik, Tukonen and Thelen. Olesz' WJC notwithstanding, I don't know that anyone could say any of those players has performed better than Montoya since the draft.

nrf83 01-03-2005 02:46 PM

this is typical NYR fan. WE want playoffs, get vets , don't make playoffs for 7 years , we are PO. Lets get kids, we are willing to wait for them to develop; after a mediocre WJC Montoya has to go; Jessiman wanted to stay in Dartmouth, him, he supposed to go to Hartford, he is not following the plan, lets get rid of him. Oh by the way, Parise is great, Debbies stole another great pick, why didn't Glen draft him instead. We said, we promised, that we would be patient with the rebuild. What a joke. Remember Alvaro is only 19, he has a long career ahead of him. This is why we got Allaire, to work with Montoya, Blackburn, LaBarbara, Holmqvist. Patience please. These prospects hopefully will develop for NYR, but we all know what a crap shoot developing talent is.

RangerBoy 01-03-2005 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnaby
I'm not saying he's a bust ;) I've been sticking up for him constantly.

It's just a little frustrating. The best sign to me is that his two best games were the two biggest games. I'm not losing faith in him, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I am a bit less confident then I was pre-WJC. Sure, he came up big late against Russia, but where was he early in the game? I don't even expect to see him in the NHL for 3 years, but I was hoping that he would show a glimpse of what he could be. I didn't see that. I know he's 19, and he's got a long way to go. My problem was how many soft goals and inconsistent games can you have? Oh well, it's only one pretty short tournament so hopefully he can come out strong when he gets back to Michigan.

Here's to keeping the hope alive ;)

Look at the other Montoya thread on a reasonable theory for Montoya's struggles.Fleury and Lehtonen struggled in the WJC after getting drafted high in the first round.

Early in the Russian games,the shots were from the slot and the Russian shooter-Ovechkin is lethal.Team USA played like chickens with their heads cut off in the first ten minutes of the 1st period.

Barnaby 01-03-2005 02:53 PM

Montoya was a solid pick at 6. Not the choice I woulda made, but I wouldn't consider it a reach or a huge risk as compared to the players still left. I like Olesz better and possibly Ladd if we moved up, but are Valabik, Thelen, Wheeler (before him), Picard, Smid really better picks? Those were the players taken around him.

5. Wheeler
6. Montoya
7. Olesz
8. Picard
9. Smid
10. Valabik
11. Tukkonen
12. Thelen
13. Stafford
14. Dubynk
15. Radulov

Not too many players are exactly sure-fire stud picks.

Levitate 01-03-2005 02:57 PM

i'd definatly agree with the people saying he wasn't a reach at #6. after the first 3 picks, IMO there weren't any "sure fire" top line players or guys you just *had* to have. sure tukonen might have been nice...olesz (i really liked him before the draft but i'm kinda cautious now hearing some things about him...i think he took another hard hit while playing in the czech republic and was injured and some have said he's played weak at times since his concussion) but i still think that if montoya reaches his potential, he's much much more valuable than any other player the rangers could have taken at that spot.

Sather Hater 01-03-2005 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnaby
Montoya was a solid pick at 6. Not the choice I woulda made, but I wouldn't consider it a reach or a huge risk as compared to the players still left. I like Olesz better and possibly Ladd if we moved up, but are Valabik, Thelen, Wheeler (before him), Picard, Smid really better picks? Those were the players taken around him.

5. Wheeler
6. Montoya
7. Olesz
8. Picard
9. Smid
10. Valabik
11. Tukkonen
12. Thelen
13. Stafford
14. Dubynk
15. Radulov

Not too many players are exactly sure-fire stud picks.

That is a good point. Loooking at the players drafted around him, I wouldn't go back and pick someone else. Stafford did impress me at the WJC's though, he is an excellent pick up by Buffalo (I wish he was available at the 19th spot or the Rangers could have moved up to select him too).

I wasn't exactly thrilled the day they drafted Montoya, but I have come around and it didn't take me that long. The only reason I wasn't thrilled was because the goaltending position was alot deeper than the forwards at the time (Lundqvist and Blackburn). Now hearing Blackburn might not regain full mobility in his shoulder, it's nice knowing we have two excellent prospects, and Blackburn. The team still has a 1st rounder and a few 2nd rounders if they ever hold the 05 draft so there is a chance to strengthen the forward position on this team and they will be in excellent shape in the future.

Fletch 01-03-2005 03:19 PM

I think it's tough...
 
to get excited about a goalie pick. This team is so short in a lot of areas (forwards with 'star' potential, defensemen with 'star' potential), and you're right that at the time, there seemingly were two goalies already in the system. Of course right now we know there' was really one as Blackburn at this point is a huge questionmark. And heck, Lundqvist is not a lock either at this point and over the last several seasons, the goaltending spot has been erratic, at best, even when Richter was here (off his game, injured, etc.). Sather's building the team from the net-out, and filling voids with character (safe) players where possible. With a deep draft in '05 and the possibility for a high pick if a draft is ever held (and Sather's thinking last draft day was this team will likely tank the season giving us a high pick), he figures he can get his 'Olesz' or better next year, while shoring up the goaltending position a bit in the process.


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