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-   -   Richard, Beliveau, Lafleur top 10 or not? Overall thoughts? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=121895)

KOVALEV10* 01-04-2005 12:05 AM

Richard, Beliveau, Lafleur top 10 or not? Overall thoughts?
 
What do you guys think of those 3? They are the 3 best hab forwards of all time obviously. But would you consider one of them in the top 5 of best forwards ever?

Rocket Richard as we know was a determined goal scorer.. he was the first to score 50 goals in a single season much less in 50 games! Also the first to score 500 in a career and has won 9 Stanley Cups.

Jean Beliveau was an awesome player who could stickhandle better then anyone I've ever seen in my life. Also scored 500 goals and about 1100 points.Won a hart trophy and 10 stanley cups.

Guy Lafleur is considered as the most exciting hockey player of all time by many. He was the first player ever to score 50 goals or more in 6 consecutive seasons as well as 120 points or more on 6 consecutive seasons. Won 3 art ross trophies, 2 hart trophies, 5 stanley cups with 4 of them in a row, a conn smythe trophy and was the idol of future legends such as Mario Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky. His style was so fun to watch with the dekes and the spins and his booming shot.. he was really the Flower!

The hockey news ranked Richard at no 5, Beliveau at no 7 and Lafleur at no 11...Personally I think Lafleur is in the top 10...

What are your thoughts about those 3? I would say Richard is in the top 5 forwards of all time and Beliveau and Lafleur are no doubt in the top 10! Anyone agree with me? Discuss!

Russian_fanatic 01-04-2005 12:51 AM

Richard-Top 5 IMO and is the best goalscorer ever!
Beliveau-I would rank him in the top 15. Around #11-15 debatable.
Lafleur-See Beliveau. Around #12

BuppY 01-04-2005 01:20 AM

TOP 15 for sure!! but Richard top 5 forsure.

Legionnaire 01-04-2005 01:36 AM

Wherever Lafleur is, Dionne should be right behind...

Rocket is easily top 10, maybe top 5. He and Bossy are the two best goalscorers ever.

Jeffrey 01-04-2005 01:42 AM

maybe it's just me but I would rank Beliveau over Richards both easily top 10!
Lafleur would be around 15..

LannysStach 01-04-2005 03:27 AM

it's hard to comment on players you never saw play much (Richard, Beleveau) -- but to my eyes it's: gretz, orr, mario and then Guy. other than the Big Three, i've never seen anybody like him -- and especially that it was able to go on for so many years . . . like those years where they lost about 8 games a season . . . the way he could break open a game and skate circles around everyone else -- and to have the supporting cast around him. and then of course the weirdest comeback in history -- gotta be the Only person ever already inducted into any sport's Hall of Fame who then came back and played actively.

arnie 01-04-2005 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
What do you guys think of those 3? They are the 3 best hab forwards of all time obviously. But would you consider one of them in the top 5 of best forwards ever?

Rocket Richard as we know was a determined goal scorer.. he was the first to score 50 goals in a single season much less in 50 games! Also the first to score 500 in a career and has won 9 Stanley Cups.

Jean Beliveau was an awesome player who could stickhandle better then anyone I've ever seen in my life. Also scored 500 goals and about 1100 points.Won a hart trophy and 10 stanley cups.

Guy Lafleur is considered as the most exciting hockey player of all time by many. He was the first player ever to score 50 goals or more in 6 consecutive seasons as well as 120 points or more on 6 consecutive seasons. Won 3 art ross trophies, 2 hart trophies, 5 stanley cups with 4 of them in a row, a conn smythe trophy and was the idol of future legends such as Mario Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky. His style was so fun to watch with the dekes and the spins and his booming shot.. he was really the Flower!

The hockey news ranked Richard at no 5, Beliveau at no 7 and Lafleur at no 11...Personally I think Lafleur is in the top 10...

What are your thoughts about those 3? I would say Richard is in the top 5 forwards of all time and Beliveau and Lafleur are no doubt in the top 10! Anyone agree with me? Discuss!

The number of Stanley cups you win is a worthless stat. All it means is that you were lucky enough to play on a good team. In fact, it probably means that part of you success was because you had extraordinary teammates and that you accomplishments are a bit overblown. (Example: Wayne Gretzky. The oilers made him as much as he made the oilers. Who did did he cup follow when he left Endmonton? Messier, who won another cup in Edmonton and one in NY.)

When people suggest that winning the cup is a sign of a players ability, I need only point out that Troy Loney won 2 with the Pitttsnurgh Penguins while Ray Borque would have won 0, if the Bruins hadn't given him a break and traded him to Col in his last year. If that trade hadn't been made, would that mean that Borque was any less a player?

#66 01-04-2005 08:08 AM

IMO I would rank Richard #4, Beliveau #7 and Lafleur #11.

Chili 01-04-2005 08:53 AM

Top ten lists
 
I think a better question is what is the value in comparing eras.

How does a six team league with much different pay, travel and other conditions (i.e. medical staff) compare with the NHL of recent times?

I don't think that it does.

I would not even compare Rocket Richard and Mike Bossy. Who was better? I have no idea other than they are two of the greatest goal scorers in the history of the game.

Richard, Beliveau and Lafleur's places in NHL history are secure and I respect what each player accomplished, without the need to place them on a subjective list.

Bring Back Bucky 01-04-2005 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili
I think a better question is what is the value in comparing eras.

How does a six team league with much different pay, travel and other conditions (i.e. medical staff) compare with the NHL of recent times?

I don't think that it does.

I would not even compare Rocket Richard and Mike Bossy. Who was better? I have no idea other than they are two of the greatest goal scorers in the history of the game.

Richard, Beliveau and Lafleur's places in NHL history are secure and I respect what each player accomplished, without the need to place them on a subjective list.

Nice post. ;)

DaaaaB's 01-04-2005 09:25 AM

I'd go with Richard #5, Beliveau #8-12 and Lafleur #12-15.

BM67 01-04-2005 09:35 AM

Richard = will & fire. One of the best regular season goal scorers, in the playoffs he was The Best. Any list without him in the top 7 needs a big *.

Beliveau is the only one of the three that you can make a case for the #1 spot for. He certainly had a better career than Orr or Lemieux. Start with a Steve Yzerman, and add a healthy dose of Mario Lemieux, and you get something close to a Jean Beliveau. The Canadiens purchased the entire QMHL to secure his NHL rights. If you rate class above fire he goes ahead of the Rocket, if not just behind him.

Lafleur might be the slickest and flashiest of the three, but I still wouldn't put him as high as 10. He wasn't a captain or a "complete" player so I might even knock him down a couple more notches from 11.

Darz 01-04-2005 09:48 AM

I think I would have all three in my top ten.

1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Lemieux
4. Richard
5. Hull
6. Beliveau
7. Mikita
8. Bossy
9. Guy Lafleur
10. Messier, Trottier or Esposito

Masao 01-04-2005 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legionnaire
He and Bossy are the two best goalscorers ever.

Ahem. I really don't think neither Richard or Bossy were better goalscorers than Mario Lemeux was. No way.

Darcy Wakaluk 01-04-2005 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darz
I think I would have all three in my top ten.

1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Lemieux
4. Richard
5. Hull
6. Beliveau
7. Mikita
8. Bossy
9. Guy Lafleur
10. Messier, Trottier or Esposito

Where do you have Bobby Orr at?

I'd put Richard at 5, Beliveau in the top 10 around 8-10 and Lafleur probably somewhere around 12th. They were all great players.

Kings16 01-04-2005 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darz
I think I would have all three in my top ten.

1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Lemieux
4. Richard
5. Hull
6. Beliveau
7. Mikita
8. Bossy
9. Guy Lafleur
10. Messier, Trottier or Esposito

I know this is a matter of taste and very subjective, but I think Messier gets way more credit than he deserves. THN had him ranked high as well, but I'd take Yzerman over him any day of the week - which incidently the THN didn't even have Yzerman on their list (of course that was an old publication).

I also think Forsberg is a better player than Messier.

Just my 2 cents.

KOVALEV10* 01-04-2005 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darcy Wakaluk
Where do you have Bobby Orr at?

Were talking about top 10 FORWARDS ever...

Wetcoaster 01-04-2005 12:48 PM

Here is THN's Top 50 from 1998 (drawn from their Top 100 list):
http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...ts/nhlt100.htm

Richard was ranked #5, Beliveau #7 and Lafleur #11.

Personally I would have switched Beliveau and Richard. But then I also pick Gordie Howe #1, Bobby Orr #2 and Gretzky #3 all-time. YMMV.

Hunter Gathers 01-04-2005 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kings16
I also think Forsberg is a better player than Messier.

Just my 2 cents.


A better player all-time? BS.

Yzerman vs Messier is a good debate, however.

Crosbyfan 01-05-2005 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnie
The number of Stanley cups you win is a worthless stat. All it means is that you were lucky enough to play on a good team. In fact, it probably means that part of you success was because you had extraordinary teammates and that you accomplishments are a bit overblown. (Example: Wayne Gretzky. The oilers made him as much as he made the oilers. Who did did he cup follow when he left Endmonton? Messier, who won another cup in Edmonton and one in NY.)

When people suggest that winning the cup is a sign of a players ability, I need only point out that Troy Loney won 2 with the Pitttsnurgh Penguins while Ray Borque would have won 0, if the Bruins hadn't given him a break and traded him to Col in his last year. If that trade hadn't been made, would that mean that Borque was any less a player?

Beliveau won 10 cups. He was unquestionably the leader (and captain) on the last 5 which included the winning the first Conn Smythe. In the first 5 Rocket was definitely the leader but not the go to guy (although he definitely came up with the big games). Beliveau was the top player, top scorer and top PIM for Montreal in that "5 in a row" of the late fifties.

KOVALEV10* 01-05-2005 02:49 AM

Here's the exact quote of Wayne Gretzky in the beggining of the Guy Lafleur DVD talking about "The Flower".

Good evening ladies and gentlemen. Hi I'm Wayne Gretzky. I just wanted to get an upportunity to say a few words about one of the greatest hockey players and obviously maybe the most exciting hockey player to ever play the game, the montreal canadiens Guy Lafleur. First of all I want to say that it was my great pleasure at the age of 19 to follow Guy Lafleur around not only in the locker rooms but on the ice in practice and of course in the games in canada cup 1981. And i'll tell you that I learned so much from him, what it takes to be a champion, what it takes to be a hard worker, the dedication that he put into the game and what he meant to the game. As a young boy growing up and I hate the age of Guy Lafleur but as a young boy growing up I used to watch him intensely every saturday night on hockey night in canada. Not only was he exciting and fun to watch but he was a true champion and that's the most important thing about being a proffesionnal hockey player in the NHL. So my hat goes off to Guy Lafleur and his family. Hope you have a wonderful evening tonight, take care!

:handclap: Wayne is such a class act! However for those who didnt see him play a whole lot or never saw him play.. you now know what he was all about. What do you think?


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