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Reaper1097 06-29-2012 06:52 AM

Flyers Cap Management
 
In today's NHL cap managment could be just as important as talent evaluation. Teams that are able to pay their players on par to their talent level usually have much deeper teams and are not forced to make any personel decisions based soley on a player's cap hit in the offseason. Every year the flyers are not able to go after the player they truely covet because of cap restraints and it is so frustrating that the perfect fit to fill a hole in the lineup cannot be acquired. I was just curious what the overall opinion is of the flyers cap management and where it ranks amongst other NHL teams.

I only bring this up now after reading that the penguins are prepared to make huge offers to both suter and parise, players that most flyers fans would love in orange and black. A few websites even suggest that it is more than likely that the penguins will indeed get both which is obviously bad bad news for the flyers. It amazes me that they could have two 8.7mil players, a goalie making 5.0 mil, two other 5.0 mil players and still have over 15.0 mil in cap space to spend and that is not taking into account one of those two 5.0mil players (Paul Martin) more than likely being traded or waived before the start of this coming season. I love timonen and briere is a great playoff performer but their caps hit are killing the flyers IMO. Combined they make just under 13.0 mil which is only a few mil less than what crosby and malkin make.

I dont even know if this is a legit complaint about the flyers but all i know it is very frustrating because in order for the flyers to have success in the next few seasons they are going to probably have to go thru the pengiuns, which could be a very tough task if they are able to acquire parise AND suter.

Hockeypete49 06-29-2012 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper1097 (Post 51705863)
In today's NHL cap managment could be just as important as talent evaluation. Teams that are able to pay their players on par to their talent level usually have much deeper teams and are not forced to make any personel decisions based soley on a player's cap hit in the offseason. Every year the flyers are not able to go after the player they truely covet because of cap restraints and it is so frustrating that the perfect fit to fill a hole in the lineup cannot be acquired. I was just curious what the overall opinion is of the flyers cap management and where it ranks amongst other NHL teams.

I only bring this up now after reading that the penguins are prepared to make huge offers to both suter and parise, players that most flyers fans would love in orange and black. A few websites even suggest that it is more than likely that the penguins will indeed get both which is obviously bad bad news for the flyers. It amazes me that they could have two 8.7mil players, a goalie making 5.0 mil, two other 5.0 mil players and still have over 15.0 mil in cap space to spend and that is not taking into account one of those two 5.0mil players (Paul Martin) more than likely being traded or waived before the start of this coming season. I love timonen and briere is a great playoff performer but their caps hit are killing the flyers IMO. Combined they make just under 13.0 mil which is only a few mil less than what crosby and malkin make.

I dont even know if this is a legit complaint about the flyers but all i know it is very frustrating because in order for the flyers to have success in the next few seasons they are going to probably have to go thru the pengiuns, which could be a very tough task if they are able to acquire parise AND suter.

Having all these high price players, how did they do in the last playoffs? Kimmo is off the books after this season and I hope they make a run at Weber. But lets see how this off season goes before we start *****ing.

Flyotes 06-29-2012 07:15 AM

The Flyers are fine. They have other overpaid pieces they can move to create space.

For instance: Trade Mez. Don't resign Jagr. That should be enough to sign Suter. More than that, would be, in fact, bad cap management.

The Flyers don't want Parise and Suter on the Penguins, but they lost Staal (which is huge for their future).

Parise going to Pittsburgh would bite, but you can't stop teams from signing free agents (the Flyers can afford Parise as well if they make some moves / don't resign people). Suter is just Matt Carle with a seat warmer and fuzzy dice. It would negate part of losing Staal.

Pittsburgh is already very good, it'll just make them a little harder. Nothing to freak out about.

I would be more worried that Parise and Suter, if they both go to the Penguins, are going to start the same trend the NBA is dealing with of stars packaging themselves together.

That would suck.

The Flyers can make room for Suter or Parise, but they can't make them want to come here.

I'm more worried that the Penguin's issues on defense will be solved in 3-4 years due to the draft they had. That O with a stern D will be nasty.

MsWoof 06-29-2012 07:18 AM

This is nothing new, Holmgren has repeatedly shown how bad he is at cap management and also at understanding how the cap works. He doesn't plan beyond the current day and that's what repeatedly bites us in the ass. The Pens have it right and the Kings have it right, as do many other teams. Look at what Lombardi did in LA, they won the Cup and have since re-signed everyone but Penner who is expected to re-sign any day now AND stay under the cap comfortably. It's obvious it can be done but Homer repeatedly has his back against the wall or in this case head against the ceiling.

BillDineen 06-29-2012 07:36 AM

Problem is two fold. 1- NMC attached to contracts and 2- Cap management, in particular Pronger's over 35 contract error.

1- If Martin had a NMC moving him would be an issue. If Briere's playoff performances were closer to his regular season performances he would be a major liability.

2- Say whatever you want about how great Pronger was, blah, blah, blah, but the Flyers should have know BEFORE trading for him that his next extension would be a 35+ contract and that they would extend the years to get the cap hit down and realize the risk of early "retirement"/injury was possible. Flyers did not have tagging space to sign Carle around the cost of Coburn. Now if they want him, they might have to pay up to 1mm more. That is a direct result of Pronger's contract.

Overall difference as well was that the Pens tanked for multiple years and the Flyers sought an immediate bounce back and felt they had to give the contracts they have in order to compete every year for the cup. Pens lost Staal, but they got good prospects on ELC in compensation that allows them now and in the future to spend more on other players.

EDIT: The Matt Walker contract is also an issue because if affects the summer cap along with Pronger and (small) Bartulis.

ayshplaysh 06-29-2012 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsWoof (Post 51706069)
This is nothing new, Holmgren has repeatedly shown how bad he is at cap management and also at understanding how the cap works. He doesn't plan beyond the current day and that's what repeatedly bites us in the ass. The Pens have it right and the Kings have it right, as do many other teams. Look at what Lombardi did in LA, they won the Cup and have since re-signed everyone but Penner who is expected to re-sign any day now AND stay under the cap comfortably. It's obvious it can be done but Homer repeatedly has his back against the wall or in this case head against the ceiling.

Is that what you call 11.5 million in cap space?

Flyer's have 11.5 million space plus any cap relief we need from Pronger's contract,which would enable us to spend almost 16.5 million. We could easily offer both Suter and Parise the exact same deals that Pittsburgh will offer them, plus I'd imagine Meszaros would be on his way out if we obtained Suter, and you have another 8 million coming off the books after this season with Timonen, Lilja, and Shelley's contracts expiring, which opens up a good 12 million to resign Hartnell and Simmonds. It's not until 2014 that we'll need to worry (Need to resign Schenn, Couturier, Read and Giroux that year).

The Flyer's are in a very good cap situation right now, which has to make you wonder, whose the next shelley/lilja getting a bad contract.

DrinkFightFlyers 06-29-2012 07:57 AM

The Flyers have three guys with high salaries. Timonen, Briere, and Bryz. It is hard to argue that they didn't deserve them. Hartnell is probably making a little too much overall but he certainly earned every penny last season. Mez is overpaid. Yes, the Jody Shelley contract is bad, but it's really over an overpayment by a couple hundred grand. The rest of the team are on very low or reasonable contracts. Show me a team that doesn't have a guy or two that is overpaid.

DrinkFightFlyers 06-29-2012 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayshplaysh (Post 51706361)
Is that what you call 11.5 million in cap space?

Flyer's have 11.5 million space plus any cap relief we need from Pronger's contract,which would enable us to spend almost 16.5 million. We could easily offer both Suter and Parise the exact same deals that Pittsburgh will offer them, plus I'd imagine Meszaros would be on his way out if we obtained Suter, and you have another 8 million coming off the books after this season with Timonen, Lilja, and Shelley's contracts expiring, which opens up a good 12 million to resign Hartnell and Simmonds. It's not until 2014 that we'll need to worry (Need to resign Schenn, Couturier, Read and Giroux that year).

The Flyer's are in a very good cap situation right now, which has to make you wonder, whose the next shelley/lilja getting a bad contract.

Lilja makes very close to the league minimum. Not sure how that is a negative for cap management.

Broad Street Elite 06-29-2012 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers (Post 51706489)
Lilja makes very close to the league minimum. Not sure how that is a negative for cap management.

Yes, in this market, if Lilja had signed for 750k last year on a 1 year deal, he's probably looking at about the same or slightly more on a 1 year deal again this year.

For how much we (over-)used Lilja, I hardly thought that he was overpaid. Based upon performance alone, Bryz and Briere were the only bad contracts for last season. If you include injury, Mez and Pronger get added. I don't count Shelley because he can be sent up and down at leisure, he has essentially 0 impact on our day-to-day roster.

This offseason is one where you can definitely get into trouble, however. When there are fewer quality players and a big cap increase, you end up with some dramatically overpaid players. Matt Carle getting mentioned in the same breath as 6M a year should terrify anyone.... I'm just glad we have so few UFAs that we might lose or overpay.

Overall, our cap looks pretty good right now. The full NMCs have got to stop though. They are completely ridiculous now.

CharlieGirl 06-29-2012 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayshplaysh (Post 51706361)
Is that what you call 11.5 million in cap space?

Flyer's have 11.5 million space plus any cap relief we need from Pronger's contract,which would enable us to spend almost 16.5 million.

Not to be rude, but you understand how LTIR works about as well as Holmgren does.

Per Bill Meltzer:

Quote:

* There is no such thing as LTIR during the summer. The player's salary counts in all salary cap calculations, both toward the in-season cap ceiling (temporarily set at $70.2 million) for 2012-13 and the summer maximum ($77.2 million)

* Even during the season, a player on LTIR's salary counts against the salary cap. It is not "bankable" money or freed-up cap space.

* LTIR money is not automatic. It is an allowance to exceed the salary cap if necessary to replace a player who is going to miss significant time. If a team does NOT need to exceed the cap to replace the injured player, it simply uses the necessary cap space to add another player.

* LTIR money is calculated by the injured player's salary cap hit MINUS (not plus) the available amount of cap space. For example, if a player's salary is $3 million and the club has $2 million of cap space available, they have a $1 million allowance to go over the cap. If they have $500,000 of cap space available, the allowance is $2.5 million. If they have $4 million of cap space, they don't need the allowance and can use their available cap space as they please.

Broad Street Elite 06-29-2012 10:03 AM

I know this has been talked about before, but when in relation to the summer cap ending can a player be placed on LTIR. Essentially, do we get to replace Pronger over the summer if we recognize he's out for a while or do we only get that credit after the season is underway?

Snotbubbles 06-29-2012 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsWoof (Post 51706069)
This is nothing new, Holmgren has repeatedly shown how bad he is at cap management and also at understanding how the cap works. He doesn't plan beyond the current day and that's what repeatedly bites us in the ass. The Pens have it right and the Kings have it right, as do many other teams. Look at what Lombardi did in LA, they won the Cup and have since re-signed everyone but Penner who is expected to re-sign any day now AND stay under the cap comfortably. It's obvious it can be done but Homer repeatedly has his back against the wall or in this case head against the ceiling.

You say that yet the Pens traded Michalek in a cap dump and they are probably going to trade Paul Martin in a cap dump if they land Suter and Parise.

turkinaa 06-29-2012 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snotbubbles (Post 51709443)
You say that yet the Pens traded Michalek in a cap dump and they are probably going to trade Paul Martin in a cap dump if they land Suter and Parise.

I think the point is more that they are able to retain their better players while still being able to get more assets and have a solid line up even without Crosby and Malkin (but they did also have Staal). They are able to make the deals they made and sign free agents because of better overall contract and asset management.

The Flyers, while always trying to put together the best team, manage contracts and assets (2nd round picks anyone?) poorly which leads to issues when there are injuries or the ability to make the team better is more difficult because you're locked into terrible contracts. Not all contracts are poorly made agreements and not all trades are dumps, but it always seems that we give more money and trade more assets out to get flexibility or fill holes when we might not need to or have to.

achdumeingute 06-29-2012 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite (Post 51709229)
I know this has been talked about before, but when in relation to the summer cap ending can a player be placed on LTIR. Essentially, do we get to replace Pronger over the summer if we recognize he's out for a while or do we only get that credit after the season is underway?

No. Prongers contract "counts" during the summer. However, current CBA has a "you can outspend cap by 10% in the offseason" clause. So if cap is 70 mil, we could spend up to 77 in the offseason, but must have that trimmed to cap by seasons start. So really...prongers deal just eats most of this "bonus" during the offseason.

When the season begins and he is placed on LTIR we are able to exceed the cap by the amount of his cap hit.

achdumeingute 06-29-2012 10:43 AM

And let's not forget they just dumped michalek who is a pretty decent defender.

Martin is terrible, he might as well have a NMC because nobody wants that...but a cap floor team might take it...

Broad Street Elite 06-29-2012 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by achdumeingute (Post 51710517)
When the season begins and he is placed on LTIR we are able to exceed the cap by the amount of his cap hit.

You missed my entire question. Let me clarify...

What is the first date you can put someone on LTIR for the season?

What is the official date that you need to go from 77.2M to 70.2M?

Actual dates, not speculation please.

Unstable 06-29-2012 11:45 AM

Next year Briere's actual salary plummets - I am highly hopeful he can be dealt to a young team with a lot of cap space.

achdumeingute 06-29-2012 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite (Post 51713963)
You missed my entire question. Let me clarify...

What is the first date you can put someone on LTIR for the season?

What is the official date that you need to go from 77.2M to 70.2M?

Actual dates, not speculation please.

Heh...that wasn't what you asked for originally.
And what does the actual date matter...they have to be compliant right before the start of the season. There is time to waive players, send them down, put guys on LTIR ect before the season begins. It's after the preseason.
Look up last year and see when everyone got sent down before the reg season...there is your answer.

BernieParent 06-29-2012 01:27 PM

Assuming Parise a) doesn't have a problem with signing for an Atlantic division team and b) has no greater preference for the Penguins over the Flyers, I'd hope that Paul Holmgren would tell Parise's agent that the Flyers want an opportunity to match/exceed any Pittsburgh offer, or just mess with them and say "We'll give you an extra $500,000 above what Pittsburgh offers you."

DrinkFightFlyers 06-29-2012 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BernieParent (Post 51719913)
Assuming Parise a) doesn't have a problem with signing for an Atlantic division team and b) has no greater preference for the Penguins over the Flyers, I'd hope that Paul Holmgren would tell Parise's agent that the Flyers want an opportunity to match/exceed any Pittsburgh offer, or just mess with them and say "We'll give you an extra $500,000 above what Pittsburgh offers you."

My guess is he has a preference for the Pens just based on what people are saying about his relationship with Crosbaby.

FreshPerspective 06-29-2012 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers (Post 51720765)
My guess is he has a preference for the Pens just based on what people are saying about his relationship with Crosbaby.

Carnal relationship....:sarcasm:

ayshplaysh 06-29-2012 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieGirl (Post 51707911)
Not to be rude, but you understand how LTIR works about as well as Holmgren does.

Per Bill Meltzer:

No I understand it perfectly fine, we are able to exceed the cap by around 7.0 million dollars, we can keep in mind spending the entirety of Pronger's salary, during the season we will be over the cap but Pronger being on the LTIR will cover that entirely, we are able to spend up to 16.5 million this offseason without dealing anyone.

I don't even know why Bill Meltzer wrote that, it's irrelevant what way you look at it, and it's needlessly complicated by what he has said, we are able to use the entirety of Pronger's salary in cap space, simple.

BernieParent 06-29-2012 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayshplaysh (Post 51728363)
No I understand it perfectly fine, we are able to exceed the cap by around 7.0 million dollars, we can keep in mind spending the entirety of Pronger's salary, during the season we will be over the cap but Pronger being on the LTIR will cover that entirely, we are able to spend up to 16.5 million this offseason without dealing anyone.

I don't even know why Bill Meltzer wrote that, it's irrelevant what way you look at it, and it's needlessly complicated by what he has said, we are able to use the entirety of Pronger's salary in cap space, simple.

There is no LTIR in the off-season, so Pronger's salary takes up cap space right now. This reduces how much can be spent, irrespective of how much can be offset when the season begins.

ayshplaysh 06-29-2012 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BernieParent (Post 51729225)
There is no LTIR in the off-season, so Pronger's salary takes up cap space right now. This reduces how much can be spent, irrespective of how much can be offset when the season begins.

We're able to spend 10% over the cap limit in the offseason. We're able to spend around 18 million but we have free up cap space before season begins if we go that high.

achdumeingute 06-29-2012 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BernieParent (Post 51729225)
There is no LTIR in the off-season, so Pronger's salary takes up cap space right now. This reduces how much can be spent, irrespective of how much can be offset when the season begins.

But his salary is covered by the 10% offseason overage. If we didn't have pronger on the books and we spent over the cap (70m) we would actually have to dump a player who would actually see ice time.
If we raise our cap to 74m this offseason it's "all good" come regular season time.


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