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-   -   Demise of the Broad Street Bullies (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1220185)

LeBlondeDemon10 06-29-2012 06:51 PM

Demise of the Broad Street Bullies
 
Another thread sparked this idea for me. I was quite young when the BSB were defeated by the Montreal Canadiens in 1976, ending the so-called era of goon hockey. In fact, I didn't start to watch hockey religiously until 2 years later. The 1976 SC final is well known as when skill defeated brawn; when the antics of the BSB's were put to rest and skilled hockey was allowed to prevail. Yet it is also common knowledge that Montreal defeated the Flyers by also learning to play their game. They beefed up their lineup with Chartraw and Bouchard. They allowed Robinson to run loose first by pounding Schultz in a 1974 game and then by creaming Dornhoeffer into the boards in a regular season game.

Following this series and going well into the 80's, hockey actually got more violent with more teams employing bigger and bigger enforcers to protect its stars, team penalty minutes increasing and likely increased instances in bench clearing brawls (although I don't have a stat to back this up). So, is the story everyone knows, that skill defeated brawn, really a misnomer? I think history should be accurate and the Canadiens victory was more about learning to stock a team with the appropriate resources to play any style. I'd like to hear your recollections, opinions, theories.

Killion 06-29-2012 08:28 PM

Ken Dryden wrote a chapter in his book The Game that I think best describes the reality of what really went down. An objective perspective from someone who subjectively had skin in the game and a front row seat. Philly could play. They werent all about intimidation & violence however, it was a "big" part of their game, no question about it. But even still, Leach, Clarke, Parent, even Schultz when he wasnt going all Neanderthal, these guys were good solid tough as nails players who stuck together like glue. In Montreal they encountered a club that was superior at every position, and not one you messed with physically, one that simply couldnt be intimidated. Indeed, I rate that Habs team, circa 72-79, as being the best ever, and here I am a Leafs fan from an era when they were winning Cups.

Hardyvan123 06-29-2012 09:23 PM

I think that people often overlook the zone that Parent was in 74 and 75 which are arguably one of the top 10, heck even top 5, of all time two consecutive seasons for a goalie.

Also like my buddy Killion said Montreal simply had a monster organization and team that went on that run in the late 70's.

Killion no doubt is missing this post as he is stocking up on refreshments with the pending liquor store strike in BC.

A legend like him needs fuel after all.

Killion 06-29-2012 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 (Post 51746599)
I think that people often overlook the zone that Parent was in 74 and 75 which are arguably one of the top 10, heck even top 5, of all time two consecutive seasons for a goalie.

.... No worries, I get it delivered from a private vintner. And ya, Bernie Parent, backed by the inimitable Wayne Stephenson. Billy Barber, Terry Crisp, Donald Saleski, Orest Kindrachuk. Yep, some real firecrackers on those teams HV. Fact is, Fred Shero was the genuis behind the Flyers. The first to employ video, in-season weight training, Assistant Coaches, the short shift.

Strange man. He used to like magically appear or disappear in a room, like he was Harry Bleedin Houdini or something. Obviously had spent a lot of time working on that trick. Got his kicks out of scaring the ever loving Jesus out of you. WTF!. Where did you come from?! Sneak right up on ya. And before every game came?. The Fog would come up with a pithy quote, such as "Success is not the result of human combustion. You must set yourself on fire". Wrote it down right there on the chalkboard. :D

Clown Baby* 06-29-2012 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 (Post 51740359)
Another thread sparked this idea for me. I was quite young when the BSB were defeated by the Montreal Canadiens in 1976, ending the so-called era of goon hockey. In fact, I didn't start to watch hockey religiously until 2 years later. The 1976 SC final is well known as when skill defeated brawn; when the antics of the BSB's were put to rest and skilled hockey was allowed to prevail. Yet it is also common knowledge that Montreal defeated the Flyers by also learning to play their game. They beefed up their lineup with Chartraw and Bouchard. They allowed Robinson to run loose first by pounding Schultz in a 1974 game and then by creaming Dornhoeffer into the boards in a regular season game.

It helps that Parent missed the '76 playoffs due to injury previous to losing his eye and eventually retiring, that Leach lost in his battle with alcoholism, and the Bullies themselves broke down after years of playing a physical brand of hockey unheard of prior to '74. Just count how many players that won a cup with Philly were still in the game ten years after the fact. That should say it all.

Dalton 06-30-2012 02:30 AM

Montreal Canadiens. Between 1964/65 and 1978/79 seasons inclusive they won 10 cups in 15 years. They went to the final 11 times in that span. Only the Leafs could beat them in a cup Final. Three different coaches and I don't how many players for sure. That's a freaking sports dynasty.

Three seasons from 75/76 to 77/78 they played 240 reg. seas. games. They won 177, lost only 29 and outscored the opposition by a few goals more than 2:1. I think lowly Detroit was responsible for a couple losses. Maybe three in one season.

That team that beat the Flyers was going to win no matter what the health of the Flyers were. IIRC Robinson put a Flyer forward through the glass early in the series then skated around glaring at the Flyers, daring them to do something about it and everybody knew that series was over.

I loved the Flyers orange uniforms. Bernie Parent was amazing. Shero was a coach who probably changed coaching forever. In fact again IIRC when Bowman came to the Canadiens as the answer to fix this talented bunch of under achievers he said the team needed a system just as Shero had started up for the Flyers.

The Flyers had a pretty good thing going but they lived and died by the sword. Parent wouldn't have made much of a difference IMHO. I doubt they'd have won a game. The Habs owned that series all the way.

tommygunn 06-30-2012 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalton (Post 51755769)
In fact again IIRC when Bowman came to the Canadiens as the answer to fix this talented bunch of under achievers he said the team needed a system just as Shero had started up for the Flyers.

When Bowman became coach of the Habs, they were defending Cup champions.

Also, Shero started coaching the Flyers the same year Bowman started coaching Montreal.. 1971-72.

Dalton 06-30-2012 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommygunn (Post 51758761)
When Bowman became coach of the Habs, they were defending Cup champions.

Also, Shero started coaching the Flyers the same year Bowman started coaching Montreal.. 1971-72.

Yes, Bowman made the statement later. TY.

LeBlondeDemon10 06-30-2012 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clown Baby (Post 51751411)
It helps that Parent missed the '76 playoffs due to injury previous to losing his eye and eventually retiring, that Leach lost in his battle with alcoholism, and the Bullies themselves broke down after years of playing a physical brand of hockey unheard of prior to '74. Just count how many players that won a cup with Philly were still in the game ten years after the fact. That should say it all.

Actually you could say that about many teams from that era that went deep into the playoffs. 1972 Bruins - by 1982 only Espo and O'Reilly were left and running on fumes.

1976 Habs - by 1986 Robinson, Gainey and Tremblay were still going strong. Jarvis played his final year in 85-86.

1980 Isles - by 1990 only Trottier and Tonelli were left. Duane Sutter's last year was 89-90.

This says a lot about the toll deep playoff runs and dynasties take on players, physical and non-physical. The psychological pressure must have been just as intense on the non-physical players.

Big Phil 06-30-2012 10:18 AM

The thing with the Canadiens in those years is that they were the "Flying Frenchmen". Yet, although they never went looking for a fight they had the guys who could compete physically. Robinson for sure fit that bill. Bouchard and even Savard and Lapointe if they had to could drop the mitts. They weren't wimps by any means.

Everything just came together in 1976 for them. All of their best players were hitting their primes and it was impossible to stop them, as you could see

Hardyvan123 06-30-2012 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clown Baby (Post 51751411)
It helps that Parent missed the '76 playoffs due to injury previous to losing his eye and eventually retiring, that Leach lost in his battle with alcoholism, and the Bullies themselves broke down after years of playing a physical brand of hockey unheard of prior to '74. Just count how many players that won a cup with Philly were still in the game ten years after the fact. That should say it all.

Not sure about that. Half their players were 24 and under and the others were over the age of 24.

Considering that there were only 9 players in the NHL aged 34 or older in 84 it's hardly surprising that only 2 of those guys were former BSB.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

BubbaBoot 06-30-2012 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 51744621)
Ken Dryden wrote a chapter in his book The Game that I think best describes the reality of what really went down. An objective perspective from someone who subjectively had skin in the game and a front row seat. Philly could play. They werent all about intimidation & violence however, it was a "big" part of their game, no question about it. But even still, Leach, Clarke, Parent, even Schultz when he wasnt going all Neanderthal, these guys were good solid tough as nails players who stuck together like glue. In Montreal they encountered a club that was superior at every position, and not one you messed with physically, one that simply couldnt be intimidated. Indeed, I rate that Habs team, circa 72-79, as being the best ever, and here I am a Leafs fan from an era when they were winning Cups.

I'm a Bruins fan who suffered through those years and I also agree, this was probably one of the best teams ever for a few years.

Killion 06-30-2012 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BubbaBoot (Post 51768077)
I'm a Bruins fan who suffered through those years and I also agree, this was probably one of the best teams ever for a few years.

.... we should really start a thread (if one hasnt already & I missed it?) about the Bruins through the 70's. Extremely interesting team. Who could ever forget those incredible series against the Habs'; the Flyers in regular season play etc.

howie789 07-01-2012 07:29 PM

yes.. the B's had some enforcers of their own in the 70's - O Reilly, Jonathan, Schmautz and Wensink come to mind.

Ivan13 07-02-2012 07:17 AM

Good old days when Big Bird was patrolling the Habs blueline.




GKJ 07-02-2012 08:44 AM

People conveniently forget that the Flyers didn't have Bernie Parent in the 1976 Finals. Habs may have still won the series, but it wouldn't have been a sweep.

cam042686 07-02-2012 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalton (Post 51755769)
Montreal Canadiens. Between 1964/65 and 1978/79 seasons inclusive they won 10 cups in 15 years. They went to the final 11 times in that span. Only the Leafs could beat them in a cup Final. Three different coaches and I don't how many players for sure. That's a freaking sports dynasty.

Three seasons from 75/76 to 77/78 they played 240 reg. seas. games. They won 177, lost only 29 and outscored the opposition by a few goals more than 2:1. I think lowly Detroit was responsible for a couple losses. Maybe three in one season.

That team that beat the Flyers was going to win no matter what the health of the Flyers were. IIRC Robinson put a Flyer forward through the glass early in the series then skated around glaring at the Flyers, daring them to do something about it and everybody knew that series was over.

I loved the Flyers orange uniforms. Bernie Parent was amazing. Shero was a coach who probably changed coaching forever. In fact again IIRC when Bowman came to the Canadiens as the answer to fix this talented bunch of under achievers he said the team needed a system just as Shero had started up for the Flyers.

The Flyers had a pretty good thing going but they lived and died by the sword. Parent wouldn't have made much of a difference IMHO. I doubt they'd have won a game. The Habs owned that series all the way.

Clearly Philly was hurt in the 1976 Finals with the injury to Parent and the loss of Rick MacLeish. Having said that, even with Parent playing like he in 1974 and 1975 and and a healthy MacLeish they would not have beaten Montreal. Montreal was just plain better in every area of the game and they proved to the Flyers in the 1975-76 season that they were tougher. Philly at that point had no weapons they could use against Montreal except hard work. And they worked hard in the Finals but so did Montreal. The edge was talent and Montreal had far more of it.

I think if the Flyers had a healthy Parent and MacLeish you would have seen a series very much like the 1973 series between the two teams. In that series Doug Favell played fantastic in net for the Flyers and the Flyers played their hearts out. They lost in 5. I believe there would have been a similiar result in 1976.

Craig Wallace

cam042686 07-02-2012 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GKJ (Post 51929225)
People conveniently forget that the Flyers didn't have Bernie Parent in the 1976 Finals. Habs may have still won the series, but it wouldn't have been a sweep.

They actually did have him. Parent played all 7 games against Toronto and the first game against Boston in the Semi-Finals. He just wasn't playing well due to an injury.

I think a healthy Parent and Rick MacLeish would have helped Philly perhaps win a game. As I have said before I think it would have been very much like the 1973 Semi-Finals between the Flyers and Montreal. Rick MacLeish was a 50 goal scorer and Doug Favell played super in net that playoff. Montreal won the series in 5, tough, close games. Philly simply didn't have the talent to beat Montreal and they couldn't intimidate them either.

Craig Wallace

jumptheshark 07-02-2012 07:14 PM

while the flyers were tought they could also play the game--they played full on and most got injured and worn down. when you play all out for 4 years--there is damage done

duffy9748 07-02-2012 08:17 PM

Flyers were missing Parent and Rick Macleish for that series. Wasn't alive so I won't say they would have won, but I read that series was very close despite Montreal winning in 4.

Plante 07-03-2012 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 51749997)
.... No worries, I get it delivered from a private vintner. And ya, Bernie Parent, backed by the inimitable Wayne Stephenson. Billy Barber, Terry Crisp, Donald Saleski, Orest Kindrachuk. Yep, some real firecrackers on those teams HV. Fact is, Fred Shero was the genuis behind the Flyers. The first to employ video, in-season weight training, Assistant Coaches, the short shift.

Strange man. He used to like magically appear or disappear in a room, like he was Harry Bleedin Houdini or something. Obviously had spent a lot of time working on that trick. Got his kicks out of scaring the ever loving Jesus out of you. WTF!. Where did you come from?! Sneak right up on ya. And before every game came?. The Fog would come up with a pithy quote, such as "Success is not the result of human combustion. You must set yourself on fire". Wrote it down right there on the chalkboard. :D


I love your posts. :handclap:

Canadiens1958 07-03-2012 01:09 PM

Sustainability
 
Question that remains and has not been answered is how sustainable is the BSB approach to hockey?

The Big Bad Bruins never won two cups in a row while other teams favouring the BSB approach have not won a SC since.

ManByng 07-03-2012 01:35 PM

i don't know if, even if Parent and MacLeish were in the finals in '76, the Canadians were necessarily more talented, but they were surely faster! Montreal's team speed in the 70's was legendary. and the Flyers didn't have a Robinson and Lapointe type d-man in their lineup. i'd say even with Bernie and Rick in the lineup, the Flyers may have only won 1 game.

Ozzy1970 07-02-2013 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalton (Post 51755769)
Montreal Canadiens. Between 1964/65 and 1978/79 seasons inclusive they won 10 cups in 15 years. They went to the final 11 times in that span. Only the Leafs could beat them in a cup Final. Three different coaches and I don't how many players for sure. That's a freaking sports dynasty.

Three seasons from 75/76 to 77/78 they played 240 reg. seas. games. They won 177, lost only 29 and outscored the opposition by a few goals more than 2:1. I think lowly Detroit was responsible for a couple losses. Maybe three in one season.

That team that beat the Flyers was going to win no matter what the health of the Flyers were. IIRC Robinson put a Flyer forward through the glass early in the series then skated around glaring at the Flyers, daring them to do something about it and everybody knew that series was over.

I loved the Flyers orange uniforms. Bernie Parent was amazing. Shero was a coach who probably changed coaching forever. In fact again IIRC when Bowman came to the Canadiens as the answer to fix this talented bunch of under achievers he said the team needed a system just as Shero had started up for the Flyers.

The Flyers had a pretty good thing going but they lived and died by the sword. Parent wouldn't have made much of a difference IMHO. I doubt they'd have won a game. The Habs owned that series all the way.

During the 75-76 season with Bernie and Rick in the line up, Philly won the season series.They played Montreal 3 times and won 2 games,As for the swweep in the final, many forget that all games were close.In fact, montreal won by one goal 3 of the 4, games before winning the cup 5-3, facing a team without Bernie Parent a two time Conn Smythe and Vezina trophy winner.It could easily have been a ties series 2-2 after 4 games.I am not saying Philly would have won Montreal was the more talented team.But nonetheless the fact remains that with their full line up Philly won the series against the habs.In case you wonder, i have been living in Montreal all my life and i saw this series on tv.I knew Philly was not gonna beat the Habs without MacLeish and Parent in the line-up.

SealsFan 07-02-2013 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 51749997)
And ya, Bernie Parent, backed by the inimitable Wayne Stephenson.

You got sumthin' against Bobby Taylor, mac?

http://www.goaliesarchive.com/flyers/goalie/taylor.jpg


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