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-   -   Line Combos: 2011 vs 2012 (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1225623)

habs03 07-06-2012 08:48 AM

2011 vs 2012
 
Comparing the projected lineup from last year around this time and this year, wondering what you guys think.

IMO last year team looks better for the upcoming season, but I like the outlook of this year team and were it seems to be headed. IMO we will probably try to add a top 4 D-men and top 6 forward through trades, so I know this most likely not going the lineup for game 1.

2011
Cammy-Plek-Cole
Patches-DD/Gomez-Gionta
Moen-Eller-AK
Darche-Noke-White

Markov-Gorges
Gill-Subban
Spacek-Emelin
Diaz/Weber

2012
Patches-DD-Cole
Bourque-Plek-Gionta
Moen-Eller-Leblanc/Gallagher(IMO)
Prust-Noke-White/Armstrong

Markov-Emelin
Gorges-Subban
Kaberle-Bouillion
Diaz/Weber

SeriousHabs 07-06-2012 08:50 AM

Since I want another lottery pick, I approve of this roster.

YMCMBeaulieu 07-06-2012 08:59 AM

If that was actually our lineup to start the year last year we would have likely been a lot better, not having Markov ready killed our D and our PP.

Bulis hit 07-06-2012 09:01 AM

You can't really put Markov in for last ssn's roster...

I agree however that this ssn's roster doesn't look much better.

Nothing MB could have done really though... Armstrong and Prust are solid additions for depth. The way the roster is set up, he had to give Bourque a shot at bouncing back. And Kaberle isn't exactly a perfect fit, but he's still a solid top 6 dman and wasn't a case for a buyout, but he was also taking away a roster spot that could have been used to try to field a better team.

In the next year or two, Kaberle and Gomez will be out of the picture and it will be much easier to navigate then. Hopefully Bourque turns it around and becomes a productive player or is shipped out one way or another.

Wheter this team is actually improved over last season will depend heavily on Markov's health and performances, Kaberle's performances, Subban and Emelin's development, Bourque's performances and (to a smaller extent) Eller and Diaz's development and Armstrong's ability to bounce back and stay healthy.

Then there is the Gomez wildcard. If he regains some offensive abilities in the new system, he could be tradable or good depth for the team.

And of course, a different system under Therrien than JM. We'll see how it goes. Will be interesting.

Captain Smurf 07-06-2012 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeriousHabs (Post 52210085)
Since I want another lottery pick, I approve of this roster.

It really doesn't stack up to last years, which is slightly upsetting. However, I've long been an advocate of a retool/mini-rebuild, and this off-season wasn't really great in terms of adding scoring. We've got some really quality prospects in Hamilton this year and a new GM. Better to just assess what we have this year and then see what improvements we can add next off-season.

Valois 07-06-2012 09:11 AM

Just a little correction, we didn't have Noke to start the year last year.

I *think* it was Enqvist, we tried to get Betts but he didn't clear the medical.

habs03 07-06-2012 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valois (Post 52210695)
Just a little correction, we didn't have Noke to start the year last year.

I *think* it was Enqvist, we tried to get Betts but he didn't clear the medical.

ya I didn't want to put Enqvist because IMO the team never planned to use him for the 4th line centre role, and since Betts never played a game I just put Noke, but your 100% right.

habs03 07-06-2012 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bulis hit (Post 52210421)
You can't really put Markov in for last ssn's roster...

I agree however that this ssn's roster doesn't look much better.

Nothing MB could have done really though... Armstrong and Prust are solid additions for depth. The way the roster is set up, he had to give Bourque a shot at bouncing back. And Kaberle isn't exactly a perfect fit, but he's still a solid top 6 dman and wasn't a case for a buyout, but he was also taking away a roster spot that could have been used to try to field a better team.

In the next year or two, Kaberle and Gomez will be out of the picture and it will be much easier to navigate then. Hopefully Bourque turns it around and becomes a productive player or is shipped out one way or another.

Wheter this team is actually improved over last season will depend heavily on Markov's health and performances, Kaberle's performances, Subban and Emelin's development, Bourque's performances and (to a smaller extent) Eller and Diaz's development and Armstrong's ability to bounce back and stay healthy.

Then there is the Gomez wildcard. If he regains some offensive abilities in the new system, he could be tradable or good depth for the team.

And of course, a different system under Therrien than JM. We'll see how it goes. Will be interesting.

IMO the team really thought he was good to go to start the year, and only found out he wasn't in training camp, and hence the Campoli signing, that is why I put him in there, since the team was expecting him to be ready.

Gabe84 07-06-2012 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by habs03 (Post 52210033)
Comparing the projected lineup from last year around this time and this year, wondering what you guys think.

IMO last year team looks better for the upcoming season, but I like the outlook of this year team and were it seems to be headed. IMO we will probably try to add a top 4 D-men and top 6 forward through trades, so I know this most likely not going the lineup for game 1.

2011
Cammy-Plek-Cole
Patches-DD/Gomez-Gionta
Moen-Eller-AK
Darche-Noke-White

Markov-Gorges
Gill-Subban
Spacek-Emelin
Diaz/Weber

2012
Patches-DD-Cole
Bourque-Plek-Gionta
Moen-Eller-Palushaj
Prust-Noke-White/Armstrong

Markov-Emelin
Gorges-Subban
Kaberle-Bouillion
Diaz/Weber

Palushaj will get first dibs on the third line at the beginning of the season in my opinion. Is he waiver eligible? If so, that will play in his favor if the competition is tight between him, Leblanc and Gallagher.

Top Corner2 07-06-2012 10:03 AM

The D group is definitely better this year assuming Markov is healthy.

The bottom 6 is better this year. The top 6 is worse.


About a wash all in all.

Also that line-up last year had many people quite optimistic.


I could see us trading Bourque for an overpaid stay at home d with some size. Then trading Kaberle for a forward or prospects...

Top Corner2 07-06-2012 10:04 AM

Also where is Gomez? He should be in that lineup somewhere. My guess is playing LW with Plekanec & Gionta.

habs03 07-06-2012 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe84 (Post 52212213)
Palushaj will get first dibs on the third line at the beginning of the season in my opinion. Is he waiver eligible? If so, that will play in his favor if the competition is tight between him, Leblanc and Gallagher.

I'm 90% sure he isn't so sending him down isn't a problem.

Kriss E 07-06-2012 10:10 AM

Our offense is worse this year. Not only are we not talking of a top 9 like last year but our last top6 player(Bourque) simply cannot be used versus tougher opponents, meaning he can't play with Plek. So that also limits our flexibility.
AK had his flaws, so did Cammy, but they could handle tougher minutes.
Not the same situation this year.

However, our defense will most likely be better. Markov is back and will have had plenty of time of to further reinforce his strength. Our young kids, with more experience, are likely to come back stronger as well.

But our lack of depth up front will bite us in the butt, unless we're able to get back our top PP. That would help us make the POs.
But if one of our wingers suffers an injury, or god forbid two or more, we'll be screwed (unless our call up step it up).

WestIslander 07-06-2012 10:13 AM

Opening night in October will be:

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole
Player traded for - Plekanec - Gionta
Moen - Eller - Armstrong
Prust - Nokelainen - White
Leblanc

Markov - Emelin
Gorges - Subban
Kaberle - Bouillon
Weber

Price
Budaj

Top Corner2 07-06-2012 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kriss E (Post 52212853)
Our offense is worse this year. Not only are we not talking of a top 9 like last year but our last top6 player(Bourque) simply cannot be used versus tougher opponents, meaning he can't play with Plek. So that also limits our flexibility.
AK had his flaws, so did Cammy, but they could handle tougher minutes.
Not the same situation this year.

However, our defense will most likely be better. Markov is back and will have had plenty of time of to further reinforce his strength. Our young kids, with more experience, are likely to come back stronger as well.

But our lack of depth up front will bite us in the butt, unless we're able to get back our top PP. That would help us make the POs.
But if one of our wingers suffers an injury, or god forbid two or more, we'll be screwed (unless our call up step it up).


I do agree with you Kriss E. But also keep in mind that the philosophy of Therrien is more the traditional 2 scoring lines & 2 checking lines....and our bottom two lines are more like "checking lines" than they were last year.

In fact we are going to be a tough team!@!! Finally!

habs03 07-06-2012 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top Corner2 (Post 52213105)
I do agree with you Kriss E. But also keep in mind that the philosophy of Therrien is more the traditional 2 scoring lines & 2 checking lines....and our bottom two lines are more like "checking lines" than they were last year.

In fact we are going to be a tough team!@!! Finally!

That can't work unless you have top elite scoring lines, we simply do not have the talent to have 2 scoring lines, and 2 checking lines. So its best to go with 3 good lines and a 4th line.

IMO that is why its best to keep Bourque and have him on the 3rd line and have him play with Eller. The his cap hit is 3.33M, and that is about the going rate for a top 9 forward.

Patches-DD-Cole
XXX-Plek-Gionta
Bourque-Eller-Moen

If we add a top 6 LW, we are able 3 line that can score, and we would have two lines that can almost be used against other teams top lines, Plek and Eller line.

SeriousHabs 07-06-2012 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WestIslander (Post 52213013)
Opening night in October will be:

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole
Player traded for - Plekanec - Gionta
Moen - Eller - Armstrong
Prust - Nokelainen - White
Leblanc

Markov - Emelin
Gorges - Subban
Kaberle - Bouillon
Weber

Price
Budaj

So this ''player traded for'' sloted in the top 6 doesn't cost roster players, or was traded from Gomez? I can see why people always say our GMs suck. Such stupid expectations can only lead to stupid assements of the GMs job.

SeriousHabs 07-06-2012 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by habs03 (Post 52213519)
That can't work unless you have top elite scoring lines, we simply do not have the talent to have 2 scoring lines, and 2 checking lines. So its best to go with 3 good lines and a 4th line.IMO that is why its best to keep Bourque and have him on the 3rd line and have him play with Eller. The his cap hit is 3.33M, and that is about the going rate for a top 9 forward.

Patches-DD-Cole
XXX-Plek-Gionta
Bourque-Eller-Moen

If we add a top 6 LW, we are able 3 line that can score, and we would have two lines that can almost be used against other teams top lines, Plek and Eller line.

We don't have 2 scoring lines, yet you feel we should dress 3 scoring lines. Uh-huh.

Habs 4 Life 07-06-2012 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeriousHabs (Post 52213817)
So this ''player traded for'' sloted in the top 6 doesn't cost roster players, or was traded from Gomez? I can see why people always say our GMs suck. Such stupid expectations can only lead to stupid assements of the GMs job.

Bourque is not on his list so I assume he is the one that got traded

I don't know why people keep thinking Gomez will be moved anyways, 2 more years and he isn't going anywhere

habs03 07-06-2012 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeriousHabs (Post 52213861)
We don't have 2 scoring lines, yet you feel we should dress 3 scoring lines. Uh-huh.

:huh:

I said we don't have the talent to have just 2 scoring lines and go with two checking lines. Teams like the Blackhawks, Pens, Sharks can do that because of the high end talent they have that in their top 6. We simply don't have, and what I was saying is that it would be best to go with more depth to try to offset that, example how the Bruins line up is matched up.

Having a 3rd line of Bourque-Eller-Moen, is a lot better than having a 3rd line of Moen-Eller-Armstrong

Kjell Dahlin 07-06-2012 10:58 AM

I still hope for reinforcement on D (Bouillon – experience and toughness - is better than Weber and Campoli but he ain't no Barret Jackman! Plus... ideally Emelin would play on the 3rd pairing) and I was disappointed when Jagr signed elsewhere; he would have been a good stop gap measure while waiting for Leblanc and Gallagher imo.

In the current context, I would go with:

1. Pacioretty - Plekanec – Gionta

2. Bourque - Desharnais - Cole (I can't imagine someone floating around alongside work horses Desharnais and Cole!)

3. Moen - Eller – Leblanc (though I have doubts regarding Leblanc's physical readiness)

4. Prust - Nokelainen - White (grits + a good right handed faceoff man)

(Gomez or Armstrong )

1. Emelin - Subban (our #1 pairing is the one with Subban on it imo... and I am a huge fan of Markov btw)

2. Markov – Gorges

3. Kaberle - Bouillon

(Diaz or Saint-Denis)

Price
Budaj

--------------------------------

=> On paper the 2011 lineup looks better but (1) injuries were the #1 problem in 2011-12 - Gionta and Markov should see more action in 2012-13) and (2) the 2012 line up is better balanced.

Oh... I almost forgot... and Therrien >>>> Cunneyworth!

--------------------------------

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeriousHabs (Post 52213817)
So this ''player traded for'' sloted in the top 6 doesn't cost roster players, or was traded from Gomez? I can see why people always say our GMs suck. Such stupid expectations can only lead to stupid assements of the GMs job.

Bourque, Diaz + 2nd round pick is the new Ryder, Halak and a 2nd round pick! Btw... I invented the "Ryder, Halak and a 2nd round pick" back in my sportsnet days!

shamrun 07-06-2012 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top Corner2 (Post 52212605)
Also where is Gomez? He should be in that lineup somewhere. My guess is playing LW with Plekanec & Gionta.

At first i laughed but then i felt sad.

Erik Estrada 07-06-2012 11:07 AM

If it wasn't for injuries, the 2011 lineup looked better. The 4th line upgrade doesn't compensate for the weakened 2nd and 3rd lines...

I'm crossing my fingers hoping for no injuries and a miracle from prospects in our system.

NH57 07-06-2012 11:16 AM

I want another lottery pick in the 2013 draft, so I'm fine with our roster now. If we can get another top 5 pick, we could possibly land MacKinnon, Monahan, Jones, Shinkaruk, or Barkov.

SeriousHabs 07-06-2012 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Estrada (Post 52215287)
If it wasn't for injuries, the 2011 lineup looked better. The 4th line upgrade doesn't compensate for the weakened 2nd and 3rd lines...

I'm crossing my fingers hoping for no injuries and a miracle from prospects in our system.

I nominate you for the Nobel Prize of Scientific Rocketteering!

Injuries happened, injuries are happening and injuries will happen. This is true for the Habs and for everyone else. The Habs weren't that affected by injuries to begin with.

Markov didn't get injured last season. We signed him after the fact. That is like trading for Pronger or Savard and subsequently whining that they are injured. The only real injuries were Gionta's and Moen's. I guess you can count White if you really believe that such an interchangeable player would have had a dramatic positive impact on the team (hint: nope). I think Darche also missed quite a few. According to most, this should have helped the team...

Karberle, Diaz, Weber and Emelin all missed a handful of games, but all teams have similar situations. Only 7 players played more than 79 games, but they are Cole, Georges, Subban, Plekanec, Pacioretty, Desharnais and Eller. The LA Kings and Devils had similar numbers. Outside of Boston, who was remarkably healthy outside of Horton, most teams post similar numbers to the Habs. Some of course lost bigger pieces. Pittsburgh lost Crosby. Philly lost Pronger...

Injuries always seem bad when there is no depth. Depth is acquired in the draft, and higher picks help. We are getting there. 2 more years :)


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