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-   -   Do the Habs need defense depth? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1229637)

canadiensnation 07-12-2012 09:08 PM

Do the Habs need defense depth?
 
Do the Habs still need a strong depth d-man with experience and leadership?

Our Top 4
Subban
Gorges
Markov
Emelin

After these main 4 we have,
Boullion
Weber
Kaberle
Diaz (expected to sign)
Added: St-Denis

These 4 are basically our depth guys that will be either on special teams or bottom pairing, but if MB can move one of Kaberle, Diaz, Weber could the habs sign one of these guys,

Scott Hannan
Brett Clark
Carlo Colaiacovo
Steve Eminger

I wouldn't mind one of the above all solid d-man who can manage 15+ mins.

Your thoughts??

MXD 07-12-2012 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiensnation (Post 52487101)
Do the Habs still need a strong depth d-man with experience and leadership?

Our Top 4
Subban
Gorges
Markov
Emelin

After these main 4 we have,
Boullion
Weber
Kaberle
Diaz (expected to sign)

These 4 are basically our depth guys that will be either on special teams or bottom pairing, but if MB can move one of Kaberle, Diaz, Weber could the habs sign one of these guys,

Scott Hannan
Brett Clark
Carlo Colaiacovo
Steve Eminger

I wouldn't mind one of the above all solid d-man who can manage 15+ mins.

Your thoughts??

I honestly prefer St-Denis and Nash (...well, possibly) to those guys.

vokiel 07-12-2012 09:22 PM

My thoughts are: Far before 82 games completed, this D crew will be dead tired of getting pushed over. There isn't enough strength, that's the problem. Also Emelin being unable to fight at all, because of his face plate, doesn't help.

Kriss E 07-12-2012 09:24 PM

Depends on what the goal is.
Ideally, we'd have a big top 4 shutdown Dman. But with 8 Dman already, I'm not sure that's gonna happen.
With Emelin having a pretty solid year despite him looking pretty out of shape with a guy at camp, they might be looking at him to become that shutdown top 4 D. I also rather go with Emelin than any of the guys you mentioned.

Unless they can move two of Kaberle, Diaz and Weber, I just don't see how we're gonna bring in another Dman.

UniverStalinGraduate* 07-12-2012 09:37 PM

Nope, good chance to let some young guys share time with some veterans I think.

Internal competition and strength on defence if and when an injury or three hits.

UniverStalinGraduate* 07-12-2012 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kriss E (Post 52487627)
Depends on what the goal is.
Ideally, we'd have a big top 4 shutdown Dman. But with 8 Dman already, I'm not sure that's gonna happen.
With Emelin having a pretty solid year despite him looking pretty out of shape with a guy at camp, they might be looking at him to become that shutdown top 4 D. I also rather go with Emelin than any of the guys you mentioned.

Unless they can move two of Kaberle, Diaz and Weber, I just don't see how we're gonna bring in another Dman.

I am really hoping/looking forward to seeing Emelin patrolling the blue line for about 17 minutes ES and 3 PK per game.

I think we could be in for a treat, for all our overpaid guys, of which I really only think Gomez is "overpaid" I think Emelin might really provide a huge bank for the buck.

Really excited about him and Eller at the next 2 years for 3.325 combined

68 07-12-2012 09:41 PM

We already have depth. What we need is quality.

SouthernHab 07-12-2012 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate (Post 52488055)
Nope, good chance to let some young guys share time with some veterans I think.

Internal competition and strength on defence if and when an injury or three hits.

I disagree. That was the downfall of this team last year. We had too many young guys on D and Price could not cover all of their mistakes.

We have defensive depth.......Weber and Diaz. And they need to remain depth in Hamilton. Kaberle is too expensive to be considered depth but he is not an ideal DMan for this team. So we are stuck with Kaberle unless he is traded.

The Habs need an experienced and solid DMan added before the season starts. I would be pleased as hell if Bergy signed Carlo Colaiacovo.

Myron Gaines* 07-12-2012 09:53 PM

We need a top pairing defenceman

Millpool 07-13-2012 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernHab (Post 52488527)
We have defensive depth.......Weber and Diaz. And they need to remain depth in Hamilton.

Although I agree when it comes to Weber, I really like what Diaz brings and think he can be a perfectly reliable bottom-pairing guy. He's got loads of experience and improved markedly as he adjusted to the NHL game over the course of last season. He should be more prepared for the long season this time around, and if he's paired with someone with more size (like Emelin), I think he's ideal in that bottom slot. Being stuck with Kaberle makes for a more complicated situation, but either way, I want to give Diaz the opportunity to succeed.

In the end, given our depth in defensive prospects and the fact that we're not in a position to compete for the Cup this season, I don't feel the need to panic at this point. I would love a big, shutdown, top-4 guy, but I'm also willing to wait on it to find the best fit.

UniverStalinGraduate* 07-13-2012 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernHab (Post 52488527)
I disagree. That was the downfall of this team last year. We had too many young guys on D and Price could not cover all of their mistakes.

We have defensive depth.......Weber and Diaz. And they need to remain depth in Hamilton. Kaberle is too expensive to be considered depth but he is not an ideal DMan for this team. So we are stuck with Kaberle unless he is traded.

The Habs need an experienced and solid DMan added before the season starts. I would be pleased as hell if Bergy signed Carlo Colaiacovo.

All those young guys are a year older. Plus Bouillon over Campoli is a big step up.

Also, much better chance that Markov is an impact guy for the team next year.

Diaz proved last year he can play a regular shift on defence (poor offence, coaching and inexperience did this team in) and Weber still has some NHL potential this season and beyond.

Kimota 07-13-2012 03:24 AM

We need a Top guy after Markov and Subban to be able to spend a lot of quality minutes on the ice. Sort of a Hammer at his best but...better. So that if somebody fall because of injury, that guy can take a lot of minutes filling the place of Markov and Subby. Also by getting someone like that, it would make the whole D more at ease. You don't overwork Gorges making him something that he is not, and Emelin can at the same time continue his developement until he can become a Top four.

beowulf 07-13-2012 06:37 AM

Really depends on who could be acquired. I am not totally against starting the season with this group but if another guy is signed/traded for, then one of these guys has to go. Ideally waiting until Markov is looking strong on his knees and then trading Kaberle, who I hope has a strong start, for a big, hard hitting dman would be ideal.

Paul Dipietro 07-13-2012 06:52 AM

Beyond the list from the OP, we'll also have Tinordi, Beaulieu and Ellis in Hamilton. We should be good to go in terms of depth

And don't give me that "Noooooooooo, they should stay exactly 82 games in Hamilton otherwise they'll all turn to vinegar! :cry:". At the very least, one of those 3 should be ready for the big dance when called upon

Gabe84 07-13-2012 06:56 AM

Unless we're very unlucky, we should be fine to start the season. We, at this time, have 8 defensemen available to play in the NHL. I'm personally still high on Weber. I hope he can turn things around this next season.

My point is, if given some time, we should have a lot of depth in the AHL. Subban came in as an injury replacement in his first season in the AHL. I believe Tinordi, Beaulieu and Ellis can do the same thing if needed. So no, I don't think we need depth. Of course, I think those guys in the AHL need to play at least 20-30 games before getting a call up, but if our luck isn't so bad, they should get that time to develop. Plus, we already have St-Denis and Nash as "temporary fixes" if needed.

My prediction is this: we will have some injuries. Diaz and/or Weber (or maybe St-Denis or Nash) will get some extra ice time because of it and cement their place in the line-up. If that doesn't work, one of our AHL "big three" will get a call-up and stick in the NHL afterwards.

I'm almost certain that before the end of the season, one of those three guys will have made the team permanently.

MXD 07-13-2012 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe84 (Post 52496573)
Unless we're very unlucky, we should be fine to start the season. We, at this time, have 8 defensemen available to play in the NHL. I'm personally still high on Weber. I hope he can turn things around this next season.

My point is, if given some time, we should have a lot of depth in the AHL. Subban came in as an injury replacement in his first season in the AHL. I believe Tinordi, Beaulieu and Ellis can do the same thing if needed. So no, I don't think we need depth.

My prediction is this: we will have some injuries. Diaz and/or Weber will get some extra ice time because of it and cement their place in the line-up. If that doesn't work, one of our AHL "big three" will get a call-up and stick in the NHL afterwards.

I'm almost certain that before the end of the season, one of those three guys will have made the team permanently.

I'd add St-Denis to this list.

I wonder why Weber is considered better than St-Denis at this point -- there absolutely nothing to support this.

This said, I'd give full-time duties to Diaz.

Gabe84 07-13-2012 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 52496591)
I'd add St-Denis to this list.

I wonder why Weber is considered better than St-Denis at this point -- there absolutely nothing to support this.

This said, I'd give full-time duties to Diaz.

We had the same idea, I added him afterwards, after you quoted me.

I'd definitely like to see more of St-Denis.

MXD 07-13-2012 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe84 (Post 52496713)
We had the same idea, I added afterwards, after you quoted me.

I'd definitely like to see more of St-Denis.

Awesome :)

shutehinside 07-13-2012 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 68 (Post 52488209)
We already have depth. What we need is quality.

Nail on the head. We have A LOT of defenseman but only a few really good ones. I'd trade 4 of the bottom ones for 2 solid defensmen and allow the possibility of bringing up a couple of promising prospects for small trips in the show a la PK but with less responsibility.

Gabe84 07-13-2012 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shutehinside (Post 52496767)
Nail on the head. We have A LOT of defenseman but only a few really good ones. I'd trade 4 of the bottom ones for 2 solid defensmen and allow the possibility of bringing up a couple of promising prospects for small trips in the show a la PK but with less responsibility.

Trading a guy like Diaz or Emelin is a mistake. They have upside and could be good players if given a chance (and if that's not who you were talking about, then I have no idea).

What's the point of bringing vets that won't stick around anyway? We're pretty much "in transition" right now. My guess is that Bergevin takes the time to see what some of the young guys can do before he makes any rash moves.

Blind Gardien 07-13-2012 07:31 AM

I didn't really watch Hannan last year, so I don't know if he has become fatally slow or what, but "the idea of Scott Hannan" would be a good replacement for one of our mini-PMD players in the mix. There's not much else on the market. The contract he got last year was a good one, we talked about wanting him last year too and felt like that was a bargain. He's not overly big or physical, but he has size and gets himself in the way effectively.

St-Denis is a top-notch #9 in my mind, based on what he flashed at the end of last season. I'm not sure if he's really that good or not. But he looked that good, in relatively limited opportunity. Depth isn't a problem. It's still basically just the size/toughness mix.

Paul Dipietro 07-13-2012 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shutehinside (Post 52496767)
Nail on the head. We have A LOT of defenseman but only a few really good ones. I'd trade 4 of the bottom ones for 2 solid defensmen and allow the possibility of bringing up a couple of promising prospects for small trips in the show a la PK but with less responsibility.

When I hear that expression I keep thinking about Rivet/Sopel/Mara and die a bit each time

I'll take a young guy who could improve each game (a la Diaz/Weber/Emelin) over the proverbial "solid" defenseman every time. Especially when you know they'll play on the bottom-pair

Kriss E 07-13-2012 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernHab (Post 52488527)
I disagree. That was the downfall of this team last year. We had too many young guys on D and Price could not cover all of their mistakes.

We have defensive depth.......Weber and Diaz. And they need to remain depth in Hamilton. Kaberle is too expensive to be considered depth but he is not an ideal DMan for this team. So we are stuck with Kaberle unless he is traded.

The Habs need an experienced and solid DMan added before the season starts. I would be pleased as hell if Bergy signed Carlo Colaiacovo.

The downfall last year wasn't really the defense, it was the PP. If we had the same efficiency as the previous years, we'd have been pretty much around where we've been these past year, in the mid-pack.
Defense was lacking a solid top 4, that's for sure, not denying that, but I think our poor PP and our lack of production up front were more key factors as to why we struggled.
But our true downfall was appointing RC as HC. He had absolutely no clue on how to coach this club.

In any event, I'm not going to disagree that we'd benefit from a top 4 solid D. But as for the youngsters, they are a year older, a year more mature, and hopefully a year stronger. Kids get better. Hopefully they will too.
If Diaz and Emelin follow their progression, I'm not as worried as last year. If Markov gets back into better shape, then that is a huge bonus as well.
I'm looking at next year as a transitional one, so I don't mind leaving more room for youngsters.

shutehinside 07-13-2012 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe84 (Post 52496845)
Trading a guy like Diaz or Emelin is a mistake. They have upside and could be good players if given a chance (and if that's not who you were talking about, then I have no idea).

What's the point of bringing vets that won't stick around anyway? We're pretty much "in transition" right now. My guess is that Bergevin takes the time to see what some of the young guys can do before he makes any rash moves.

I never said to trade Emelin who is believe is a top 4 defensman. Looking at Diaz, Kaberle, Weber, St. Denis etc, there isn't anyone here other than maybe Kaberle (yes he can be useful) who can step in and replace the guy ahead of him and do a better job now or in the future. When you talk about depth on a team you're talking about guys who can fit into the top 4 and be useful players and there isn't much of a drop off in talent. As it is now IMO, there's a huge drop off in talent after Markov, PK, Gorges and Emelin.

As for Diaz, he and Weber are very similar type players so why have both? We have Kaberle, PK and Markov as our our offensive defenders. Where do Diaz and Weber fit on this team. What do they bring that's so compelling that another type of defensman cant bring. I'd rather trade one or a combo of them for a shut down defensman who can battle and clear the front of the net. I think that's a bigger need than anything Weber or Diaz has to offer for the Habs. Can they be good players for another team, yes, but neither is as useful to Montreal IMHO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dipietro (Post 52496981)
When I hear that expression I keep thinking about Rivet/Sopel/Mara and die a bit each time

I'll take a young guy who could improve each game (a la Diaz/Weber/Emelin) over the proverbial "solid" defenseman every time. Especially when you know they'll play on the bottom-pair

I wasn't talking about those types of players but rather younger players who can eventually be a top 4 player but don't have the time or the experience for the role right now. Someone who as I said above can fill in a pinch but isn't relied on for the bulk of the work. There are a lot of good serviceable defensmen around the league who can do that who aren't Sopel, Mara, etc. Franson is a guy who I'd go after. Top 4 guy in Nashville but injuries held him back in Toronto, Hjarmalsson, Carle, Allen etc etc. guys who can fill out the bottom pairing but aren't going to be a liability.

So again, I think we have quantity but not much quality, yet. That can easily change with a trade and signing or two.

shack23 07-13-2012 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiensnation (Post 52487101)
Do the Habs still need a strong depth d-man with experience and leadership?

Our Top 4
Subban
Gorges
Markov
Emelin

After these main 4 we have,
Boullion
Weber
Kaberle
Diaz (expected to sign)

These 4 are basically our depth guys that will be either on special teams or bottom pairing, but if MB can move one of Kaberle, Diaz, Weber could the habs sign one of these guys,

Scott Hannan
Brett Clark
Carlo Colaiacovo
Steve Eminger

I wouldn't mind one of the above all solid d-man who can manage 15+ mins.

Your thoughts??

Why do Canadien fans insist on using Markov's name ? He is finished, his career is over, why do you not understand that ? You may as well add the names of Robinson, Savard and LaPointe to that list for all the good it will do.


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