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-   -   Speculation: Not too long ago we had "zero top 6 forwards" (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1231665)

ForSpareParts* 07-16-2012 06:09 PM

Not too long ago we had "zero top 6 forwards"
 
I forget who was our forwards before, but I remember our top lines were:


*please correct me if I'm wrong.

Kuli Grabo Hagman
Poni Stajan Blake

Now that we've undergone a few positive changes no one can say that our top 6 does not deserve to be there:

Lupul Bozak Kessel
JVR Grabo Kuli/Connolly

Now only Bozak and Kuli questionable in that group, but we should be looking forward this season based on the fact that there's a lot of competition just to make the bottom 6. Hopefully Burke can pull off a trade for our 1C. Others feel that JVR is that 1C making Mac our questionable top 6 forward (as well as Kuli). So as far as I'm concerned Burke only needs to fill 1 or maybe 2 spots.

So here's where we are in terms of the forwards:

Top 6:

Lupul
Kessel
JVR
Grabo
Connolly

Some might debate Kuli, and Mac. Others are hopeful for Kadri and Colborne to make the NHL full time.

I guess my question to you is are we complete already? Are we more than Lupul, JVR, Grabo, Connolly and Kessel? How many holes in our top 6 do we have? Would you like 1 or 2 added to the top 6?

Cheers.

Thee Implication 07-16-2012 06:11 PM

If JVR can play centre it would be huge.

Joe Pesci 07-16-2012 06:14 PM

#1C is the obvious hole.

A case can be made for Mac to be considered a 2nd line winger.

Other than that, it's a top 6 that can score, but is missing size. I'd prefer to have a power forward on the 2nd line.

smoke meat pete* 07-16-2012 06:15 PM

When the season started in 2008, Fletch declared Nik Antropov was our only top 6 forward and he was moved later that year.

Throughout that season, there were claims made that Hagman and Stajan were also top 6 forwards.

ForSpareParts* 07-16-2012 06:17 PM

Edit:

Forgot to add Connolly

Stephen 07-16-2012 06:17 PM

a) Lupul needs to keep doing what he did last year to not be categorized as a one hit wonder here in Toronto.

b) JVR is a potential top six, and I expect him to get there, but he needs to get there first before I call it a success.

c) You re-listed Grabovski and Kulemin, who were here in 2009. Doesn't seem like much personnel progress there, especially when Kulemin stunk it up this past year.

d) When you look at Chuck Fletcher, who added Heatley, Parise, Setoguchi and Granlund in one less year than the Leafs with regards to adding scoring, it seems like we're not really building as quickly as you'd like to imagine.

MrVisser 07-16-2012 06:17 PM

I'd still like to see a center upgrade, but I don't think there is a position we could afford to downgrade for it. Here's hoping Kadri upgrades the middle this season, again.

ForSpareParts* 07-16-2012 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoke meat pete (Post 52608065)
When the season started in 2008, Fletch declared Nik Antropov was our only top 6 forward and he was moved later that year.

Throughout that season, there were claims made that Hagman and Stajan were also top 6 forwards.

Yeah I remember that. I'm trying to get it straight though. Wasn't Antropov traded the season before Poni?

smoke meat pete* 07-16-2012 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForSpareParts (Post 52607873)
So here's where we are in terms of the forwards:

Top 6:

Lupul
Kessel
JVR
Grabo
Connolly

Some might debate Kuli, and Mac. Others are hopeful for Kadri and Colborne to make the NHL full time.

I guess my question to you is are we complete already? Are we more than Lupul, JVR, Grabo, Connolly and Kessel? How many holes in our top 6 do we have? Would you like 1 or 2 added to the top 6?

Cheers.

We have a key hole at #1 center and probably don't have anyone within that can fill that spot. We have enough depth to acquire one if needed, although I think a good but not great center would be adequate with Lupul and Kessel.

Kulemin, JVR, MacA, Frattin and Grabs are all IMHO 2nd liners and Kadi and Colborne possible 2nd liners. It's possible one may be good enough to play 1st line one day, but not now.

A good, 1st line center moves everyone into a situation to help the team.

Lupul-____-Kess
JVR-Grabs-Frattin
Kulemin-Connolly-Kadri

Replace Connolly with Colborne mid-season. Move MacA, Bozak and Blacker for an upgrade on Bozak. Or put Bozak on the 3rd line instead of Connolly.

smoke meat pete* 07-16-2012 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForSpareParts (Post 52608185)
Yeah I remember that. I'm trying to get it straight though. Wasn't Antropov traded the season before Poni?

He was. Poni played spme 1st line minutes, but was always a borderline top 6 player. He was pretty inconsistent.

mooseOAK* 07-16-2012 06:29 PM

I have no idea why I would tell Burke to stop looking for help.

smoke meat pete* 07-16-2012 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 52608119)
d) When you look at Chuck Fletcher, who added Heatley, Parise, Setoguchi and Granlund in one less year than the Leafs with regards to adding scoring, it seems like we're not really building as quickly as you'd like to imagine.

Fletcher paid a very steep price to acquire players who may or may not help them. Heatley is an enigma, inside a riddle and gets a lot of $. Parise too.

Seto had 19 goals and 36 points with a -17 last year.

Mess 07-16-2012 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForSpareParts (Post 52608185)
Yeah I remember that. I'm trying to get it straight though. Wasn't Antropov traded the season before Poni?

Burke came in Nov 2008 and traded Antropov at the trade deadline Feb 2009, for a 2nd round pick that the Leafs then used to draft Kenny Ryan with.

Mess 07-16-2012 07:51 PM

The 2008-09 team scored 250 goals for.

The 2011-12 team scored 231 goals for.

Despite the so called lack of top 6 forwards the 2008-09 team still outscored last years the 2011-12 team by 19 goals.

FTR: The 2009-10 team recorded: 214 GF & 2010-1011 team recorded: 218 GF..

So the original inherited team produced more offense, than all the teams since then.

The Podium 07-16-2012 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 52608119)
a) Lupul needs to keep doing what he did last year to not be categorized as a one hit wonder here in Toronto.

b) JVR is a potential top six, and I expect him to get there, but he needs to get there first before I call it a success.

c) You re-listed Grabovski and Kulemin, who were here in 2009. Doesn't seem like much personnel progress there, especially when Kulemin stunk it up this past year.

d) When you look at Chuck Fletcher, who added Heatley, Parise, Setoguchi and Granlund in one less year than the Leafs with regards to adding scoring, it seems like we're not really building as quickly as you'd like to imagine.

With the case of Fletcher, you have Heatley as an acquired top 6 player, yet refuse to awkowledge that he dealt him for a similar valued top 6 forward. That would be like Burke dealing kessel for Nash then saying look he added at top 6 player. Not to mention you categorize Lupul as a one hit wonder yet setoguchi is a consistent top 6 producer? With parise is must have been incredibly difficult to add a player who wanted to come home. Finally, my favorite of them all, grandlund is apparently a top 6 player while JVR still has to prove himself:laugh:

Pyrophorus 07-16-2012 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mess (Post 52611359)
The 2008-09 team scored 250 goals for.

The 2011-12 team scored 231 goals for.

Despite the so called lack of top 6 forwards the 2008-09 team still outscored last years the 2011-12 team by 19 goals.

FTR: The 2009-10 team recorded: 214 GF & 2010-1011 team recorded: 218 GF..

So the original inherited team produced more offense, than all the teams since then.

I wouldn't mind going back to those low scoring results, as long as
we have a fair positive goal differential.

I think this will be the end result this season, if the system can be
implemented.

ForSpareParts* 07-16-2012 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoke meat pete (Post 52608437)
He was. Poni played spme 1st line minutes, but was always a borderline top 6 player. He was pretty inconsistent.

found this quote:

http://www.tsn.ca/ctvnews/?id=266669
from dreger:

Quote:


There's a new sheriff in town and Leafs general manager Brian Burke has publicly made it clear the immunity Toronto Maple Leafs players have been protected by in the past no longer exists.

This week Nik Antropov is his target, to the point we shouldn't be surprised if Antropov soon becomes a healthy scratch in an effort to get him motivated, get him playing better and get him out of Toronto.

So, why now?

Why is Antropov, deemed at the start of the season by Cliff Fletcher to be Toronto's only top 6 forward, now considered by Burke unworthy of a contract extension?

The answer...timing.

Brian Burke is trying to get Nik Antropov going so he can ship him out.

The trade deadline is three weeks away and at the moment Burke has little or no outside interest in Antropov, once believed to be a player who could command a first or high second draft round pick via trade.

It would be foolish for Burke to criticize a player he deemed valuable, so instead he's publicly calling Antropov out in hopes the veteran forward finds his game; a game where goal scoring disappeared for 16 straight this season and glaringly shows Antropov was -10 in December and -5 in January.

Rival gm's haven't reached the panic stage yet and Burke is positioning for that moment to arrive.

When it does, on March 4th, or perhaps earlier, Burke wants to make sure Nik Antropov is a player teams are willing to pay for.

blackmarketmob 07-16-2012 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mess (Post 52611359)
The 2008-09 team scored 250 goals for.

The 2011-12 team scored 231 goals for.

Despite the so called lack of top 6 forwards the 2008-09 team still outscored last years the 2011-12 team by 19 goals.

FTR: The 2009-10 team recorded: 214 GF & 2010-1011 team recorded: 218 GF..

So the original inherited team produced more offense, than all the teams since then.

The 2008-2009 team which had 244 goals for top 6 was:

Antropov (28) - Stajan (15) - Ponikarovsky (23) For: 66
Hagman (22) - Moore (12) - Blake (25) For: 59

2011-2012 team which had 227 goals for top 6 was:

Lupul (25) - Bozak (18) - Kessel (37) For: 80
Kulemin (7) - Grabovski (23) - MacArthur (20) For: 50

So last year's top 6 did outscore the 2008-2009 team's top 6, 130 to 125. The scoring depth unfortunately stopped there in 2011-2012, with 3rd liners in 2008-2009 like Grabovski and Kulemin outscoring the 2011-2012 version of Connolly, Frattin, Lombardi, Crabb etc, combined with Kulemin's incredibly poor 7 goal campaign. I included Antropov's post trade deadline scoring with the Rangers to complete his season.

showtime8 07-17-2012 12:12 AM

There is no debate in my mind to not have Clarke MacArthur in the top 6.

Statistically last year, he would have been in every top 6 in the league except for 3 teams: Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and New Jersey. As soon as you take him out of the mix, then you have to replace 20 goals and over 40 points.

So I would say that the Leafs do have a quality top 6 and Clarke just adds to that.

Whydidijoin* 07-17-2012 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mess (Post 52611359)
The 2008-09 team scored 250 goals for.

The 2011-12 team scored 231 goals for.

Despite the so called lack of top 6 forwards the 2008-09 team still outscored last years the 2011-12 team by 19 goals.

FTR: The 2009-10 team recorded: 214 GF & 2010-1011 team recorded: 218 GF..

So the original inherited team produced more offense, than all the teams since then.

How convenient of you to ignore that league-wide scoring has gone down. Also ignoring that that group was on the downside of their careers with nowhere to go, and that a lot more of that scoring came from bottom-6 players and defensemen.

smoke meat pete* 07-17-2012 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mess (Post 52611359)
The 2008-09 team scored 250 goals for.

The 2011-12 team scored 231 goals for.

Despite the so called lack of top 6 forwards the 2008-09 team still outscored last years the 2011-12 team by 19 goals.

FTR: The 2009-10 team recorded: 214 GF & 2010-1011 team recorded: 218 GF..

So the original inherited team produced more offense, than all the teams since then.

Which is why Burke didn't expect his 1st round pick in 2010 to be #2?

Leaf Rocket 07-17-2012 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 52608119)
d) When you look at Chuck Fletcher, who added Heatley, Parise, Setoguchi and Granlund in one less year than the Leafs with regards to adding scoring, it seems like we're not really building as quickly as you'd like to imagine.

Well to get a guy like Heatley, & seto was more due to the fact they had depth to exchange. We on the other hand don't have the same situation. Burns and what not. Granlund was drafted and have yet to prove anything much like kadri.

Parise...you can praise fletcher for that one for sure because he utilized the fact they are his hometown team and what not and gave both him and suter crazy contracts. Regardless of what happens we definitely are in a better spot than we were before.

GhettoHockey 07-17-2012 02:26 AM

Lupol, #1C (Free Agent/Trade) Kessel,
JVR, Grabovski, KAdri

i think every position is a lock... assuming lupol even plays up to 60+ points in 82 games... left wing looks solid for the future... Kessel and Kadri are both looking like great young right wings who both look like there maturing slowly but steadily...... Grabovski isnt your most ideal #2 center but he plays with huge heart and puts up points and goals.... get a bonafide center and the top 6 for 2013-2014 might be a very good one defensively and offensively

Sypher04 07-17-2012 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoke meat pete (Post 52608351)
We have a key hole at #1 center and probably don't have anyone within that can fill that spot. We have enough depth to acquire one if needed, although I think a good but not great center would be adequate with Lupul and Kessel.

Kulemin, JVR, MacA, Frattin and Grabs are all IMHO 2nd liners and Kadi and Colborne possible 2nd liners. It's possible one may be good enough to play 1st line one day, but not now.

A good, 1st line center moves everyone into a situation to help the team.

Lupul-____-Kess
JVR-Grabs-Frattin
Kulemin-Connolly-Kadri

Replace Connolly with Colborne mid-season. Move MacA, Bozak and Blacker for an upgrade on Bozak. Or put Bozak on the 3rd line instead of Connolly.

Frattin has done absolutely nothing to be classified a 2nd liner yet. If anything, Kadri is closer than him.

As far as I'm concerned, there is no way you put Kadri on the third and Frattin on 2nd. They are far better suited to be reversed.

ULF_55 07-17-2012 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket (Post 52622511)
Regardless of what happens we definitely are in a better spot than we were before.

I certainly hope so, they've been tanking for 4 years.


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