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Dreakmur 07-21-2012 04:14 PM

ATD Chat Room VII
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jarek
Contracts aren't put on hold during a lockout? I thought this was the primary reason why the players caved last time.

Salaries are on hold, but signing bonuses are paid regardless.

Weber's conract is designed specifically to pay him mostly in signing bonus money. Only about 30 milion of Weber's 110 million contract is in a salary.

jarek 07-21-2012 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreakmur (Post 52794891)
Salaries are on hold, but signing bonuses are paid regardless.

Weber's conract is designed specifically to pay him mostly in signing bonus money. Only about 30 milion of Weber's 110 million contract is in a salary.

Not according to http://capgeek.com/news/shea-weber-offer-sheet.php.

Mike Farkas 07-21-2012 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarek (Post 52797249)

That's incorrect. The bonuses look right, but the salary is not. Add it up, that looks like a lot more than $110 million to me.

jarek 07-21-2012 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Farkas (Post 52797495)
That's incorrect. The bonuses look right, but the salary is not. Add it up, that looks like a lot more than $110 million to me.

I don't think the signing bonuses count as salary.

Seems like this guy supports Capgeek as well:

http://www.mcsorleys-stick.com/2012/...circumvention/

Assuming that this rule is correct: The CBA states that a player’s salary in any single season may not be more than 20% of the Upper Limit as set in the year in which the player signed his contract.

Then actually increasing the value of the salary is illegal.

EDIT: Actually, it seems that you're right.. I think. This whole thing is pretty complicated. Either way, I feel that the NHL will probably quash the deal.. not only does it seem like they have the grounds to do it, based on what the guy on that website said, but I believe they would also use it as a bargaining ploy to insist to the union that they are serious about destroying these types of deals.

Dreakmur 07-21-2012 06:03 PM

Here is how his contact breaks down

Years 1-4: 1 million salary + 13 million bonu
Years 5-6: 4 million salary + 8 million bonus
Years 7-10: 6 million salary
Year 11: 3 million salary
Years 12-14: 1 million salary

That's 42 million in salary and 68 million in bonus money.

jarek 07-21-2012 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreakmur (Post 52797733)
Here is how his contact breaks down

Years 1-4: 1 million salary + 13 million bonu
Years 5-6: 4 million salary + 8 million bonus
Years 7-10: 6 million salary
Year 11: 3 million salary
Years 12-14: 1 million salary

That's 42 million in salary and 68 million in bonus money.

Doesn't the jump from years 11 to 12 break the 100% rule?

Mike Farkas 07-21-2012 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarek (Post 52797769)
Doesn't the jump from years 11 to 12 break the 100% rule?

I don't believe so. I believe since the first two years of the contract have a 0 difference, it's ok. Was never 100% sure of that rule.

jarek 07-21-2012 06:42 PM

Hmm.. just something out of curiosity.. what if the Preds matched the offer sheet and couldn't afford to pay him the money, and then proceeded to declare bankruptcy on the franchise?

Rob Scuderi 07-21-2012 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarek (Post 52798643)
Hmm.. just something out of curiosity.. what if the Preds matched the offer sheet and couldn't afford to pay him the money, and then proceeded to declare bankruptcy on the franchise?

If they truly ran out of cash and had no outside investors to step in then I'd imagine it'd require intervention by the league and be a much uglier version of Phoenix.

jarek 07-21-2012 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi (Post 52800195)
If they truly ran out of cash and had no outside investors to step in then I'd imagine it'd require intervention by the league and be a much uglier version of Phoenix.

I just openly wonder if Nashville would do that as a big "**** YOU" to Bettman, Philadelphia, and the NHL as a whole.

BraveCanadian 07-21-2012 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreakmur (Post 52797733)
Here is how his contact breaks down

Years 1-4: 1 million salary + 13 million bonu
Years 5-6: 4 million salary + 8 million bonus
Years 7-10: 6 million salary
Year 11: 3 million salary
Years 12-14: 1 million salary

That's 42 million in salary and 68 million in bonus money.

That is a ridiculous contract.

Clearly designed as a dagger in the ribs for Nashville.

Putting the smaller markets over the barrel like this is exactly the sort of thing the last CBA was supposed to help get rid of.. apparently they need to go back to work this lockout.

Mike Farkas 07-21-2012 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BraveCanadian (Post 52801441)
That is a ridiculous contract.

Clearly designed as a dagger in the ribs for Nashville.

Putting the smaller markets over the barrel like this is exactly the sort of thing the last CBA was supposed to help get rid of.. apparently they need to go back to work this lockout.

Offer sheets aren't tendered to be matched. A readily-matchable offer sheet is a favor, not a tactical move.

Additionally, under the old CBA, small-market Carolina poison pilled big-market Detroit with Sergei Fedorov...two-way street. Offer sheets are a rarity under any circumstance.

seventieslord 07-22-2012 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BraveCanadian (Post 52801441)
That is a ridiculous contract.

Clearly designed as a dagger in the ribs for Nashville.

Putting the smaller markets over the barrel like this is exactly the sort of thing the last CBA was supposed to help get rid of.. apparently they need to go back to work this lockout.

I fully agree, this was the first thing I thought.

Although, everything Mike said is correct too.

BraveCanadian 07-22-2012 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 52806217)
I fully agree, this was the first thing I thought.

Although, everything Mike said is correct too.

Yeah, I get that, but really.. that contract is ridiculous.

I think Poile will do the same thing he did with Scott Stevens and take the picks. Too bad for Nashville because they finally became respectable the last few years by making the playoffs and winning a round etc... and now back to the drawing board.

Basically the current CBA may have just submarined Nashville as a franchise. Lucky for Quebec I guess..

I can't see how Nashville will spend that money on Weber now that he has most likely poisoned any chance of his staying.

I mean if they match, how does Weber walk into that dressing room in the fall with his millions soaked out of a team already struggling and even make a pretense he is trying to win there?

jarek 07-22-2012 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BraveCanadian (Post 52810873)
Yeah, I get that, but really.. that contract is ridiculous.

I think Poile will do the same thing he did with Scott Stevens and take the picks. Too bad for Nashville because they finally became respectable the last few years by making the playoffs and winning a round etc... and now back to the drawing board.

Basically the current CBA may have just submarined Nashville as a franchise. Lucky for Quebec I guess..

I can't see how Nashville will spend that money on Weber now that he has most likely poisoned any chance of his staying.

I mean if they match, how does Weber walk into that dressing room in the fall with his millions soaked out of a team already struggling and even make a pretense he is trying to win there?

You bring up a good point. Also, any efforts to trade him afterwards, should they match, may be difficult. Nashville will have zero leverage, aside from having Weber locked in for life.. unfortunately, a player that doesn't want to be there. Teams could just wait for Nashville to soak up a few of those signing bonuses, and then trade for him later.. that's if Nashville even exists by then.

Thinking about it, I guess Nashville has to let him walk, probably bottom out a few times in the next 4-5 years, and pray that a full out rebuild (albeit a very accelerated one with 8 1st round picks in the next 4 years) sits well with Rinne. Otherwise, the franchise may be done.

Rob Scuderi 07-22-2012 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BraveCanadian (Post 52810873)
Yeah, I get that, but really.. that contract is ridiculous.

I think Poile will do the same thing he did with Scott Stevens and take the picks. Too bad for Nashville because they finally became respectable the last few years by making the playoffs and winning a round etc... and now back to the drawing board.

Basically the current CBA may have just submarined Nashville as a franchise. Lucky for Quebec I guess..

I can't see how Nashville will spend that money on Weber now that he has most likely poisoned any chance of his staying.

I mean if they match, how does Weber walk into that dressing room in the fall with his millions soaked out of a team already struggling and even make a pretense he is trying to win there?

Don't you think you're being just a little hyperbolic?

The problem with Weber returning won't be that he's making a boatload on a small market team, it's that he's made it clear he wants out(also includes the Holmgren's refusal to include Schenn and Couturier :laugh:).

I think you're overselling how bad it is Nashville financially. They signed Rinne last year fine and Suter leaving probably has more to do with Weber's decision than finances. It sucks they did get past Detroit only to now implode but their stars are the one's calling the shots more than the CBA imo. Spending $24M in one calendar year (with the threat of a lockout and no revenue this year) would probably trouble more than just the Preds.

Canadiens1958 07-22-2012 03:35 PM

Alternative View
 
The poor Nashville story is being played to the hilt.

Consider the following.

The vaguely defined "Big Market" teams inc. Philadelphia - Ed Snider/Comcast do not want a lock-out because it will hurt their revenues and profits significantly more than it will hurt Nashville's.

Issue is getting the "Small Market" teams onside. The offer to Shea Weber that the Flyers made will get the Preds on side. Matching means the Predators are pretty sure to vote against a lock-out since they need the revenues to pay the bonus. Letting Weber go means the Preds made a poor choice and no one will miss their demise.

jarek 07-22-2012 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 52818769)
The poor Nashville story is being played to the hilt.

Consider the following.

The vaguely defined "Big Market" teams inc. Philadelphia - Ed Snider/Comcast do not want a lock-out because it will hurt their revenues and profits significantly more than it will hurt Nashville's.

Issue is getting the "Small Market" teams onside. The offer to Shea Weber that the Flyers made will get the Preds on side. Matching means the Predators are pretty sure to vote against a lock-out since they need the revenues to pay the bonus. Letting Weber go means the Preds made a poor choice and no one will miss their demise.

Why is it a poor decision if Weber wanted out?

jkrx 07-22-2012 04:47 PM

I don't like Webers attitude. You should only want out if there is a big problem with you and your teammates but even then you should pull together and just play. If we are not talking about psychological or physical bullying then he has every right to leave.

If the team is a small market team with low attendance should that really be Philadelphias problem? NHL has done alot for the small market teams, if they can't survive during these conditions then they shouldn't have a team.

I don't like offer sheets but they happen very rarely. Philadelphia and Predators can still make a deal around the 1st round draft picks like Flyers did with Tampa (Tampa got fleeced).

jarek 07-22-2012 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 52820725)
I don't like Webers attitude. You should only want out if there is a big problem with you and your teammates but even then you should pull together and just play. If we are not talking about psychological or physical bullying then he has every right to leave.

If the team is a small market team with low attendance should that really be Philadelphias problem? NHL has done alot for the small market teams, if they can't survive during these conditions then they shouldn't have a team.

I don't like offer sheets but they happen very rarely. Philadelphia and Predators can still make a deal around the 1st round draft picks like Flyers did with Tampa (Tampa got fleeced).

The NHL has done virtually nothing to help the small market teams be competitive. The CBA has so many loopholes allowing big money teams to bully the small market teams, that it's just pathetic.

Canadiens1958 07-22-2012 04:56 PM

Players Wanting Out.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jarek (Post 52818941)
Why is it a poor decision if Weber wanted out?

A team cannot afford to be held hostage by players wanting out. Getting reduced value for such a player does not sustain or grow a franchise.

Weber at the seasonal cap hit brings value for 14 seasons especially if the cap goes up at app $4M a year like it has since 2005-06. Projected < $8M cap hit annually on a cap that in 14 seasons projects to the $125M annual range is a bargain.

Canadiens1958 07-22-2012 05:02 PM

Minnesota
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jarek (Post 52821003)
The NHL has done virtually nothing to help the small market teams be competitive. The CBA has so many loopholes allowing big money teams to bully the small market teams, that it's just pathetic.

Minnesota signing Parise and Suter. Edmonton signing Schultz. Tampa Bay signing Matt Carle. New Jersey keeping Martin Brodeur.

jkrx 07-22-2012 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarek (Post 52821003)
The NHL has done virtually nothing to help the small market teams be competitive. The CBA has so many loopholes allowing big money teams to bully the small market teams, that it's just pathetic.

Just because there are loopholes, they have done nothing? Remember how it was before the lockout? $10,000,000 signing bonuses, $21,000,000 offer sheet over three years, Holik and Lapointe not to mention the salary explosion. Did you know that the leafs team salaries for 1990 were $5,000,000?

What's pathetic is NHL trying to keep teams where they don't belong. I'm all for trying new markets but sometimes the market just isn't right, like Phoenix for example. I bet that if Phoenix or Nashville moved to a city like Saskatoon or Hamilton they would be better off.

jarek 07-22-2012 05:42 PM

Look, I'm not saying a team in Nashville was ever a good idea. However, if the NHL INSISTS on aggressively expanding to these locations, they MUST provide these teams the means of keeping their players without having said players hold their teams hostage like Weber has. Clearly, this doesn't currently exist.

C1958: Those are some horrible examples. Minnesota is not small market. Schultz chose Edmonton because it was the best place for him to pad his stats to cash in big time when UFA hits. Really don't see what Carle signing in Tampa has to do with anything.. he chose the highest bidder, which has nothing to do with the CBA, but what the owners are willing to spend. And NJ keeping Brodeur had more to do with Brodeur than NJ, IMO.

Canadiens1958 07-22-2012 06:14 PM

Horrible Examples
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jarek (Post 52822337)
Look, I'm not saying a team in Nashville was ever a good idea. However, if the NHL INSISTS on aggressively expanding to these locations, they MUST provide these teams the means of keeping their players without having said players hold their teams hostage like Weber has. Clearly, this doesn't currently exist.

C1958: Those are some horrible examples. Minnesota is not small market. Schultz chose Edmonton because it was the best place for him to pad his stats to cash in big time when UFA hits. Really don't see what Carle signing in Tampa has to do with anything.. he chose the highest bidder, which has nothing to do with the CBA, but what the owners are willing to spend. And NJ keeping Brodeur had more to do with Brodeur than NJ, IMO.

By definition any example that does not support a mantra is horrible.

Prior to signing the two FAs, Minnesota always portrayed itself as small market.


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