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-   -   Theory: We Are Cutting Our Sticks Wrong (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1242447)

Jarick 08-06-2012 05:14 PM

Theory: We Are Cutting Our Sticks Wrong
 
So last night I got my 4.75 lie Drury clone in from Base and it was amazing the difference. Same stick length and curve, just swapped from 5.5 to 4.75 lie. Passing and shooting because immensely easier.

I was curious as to what the lie might mean for smaller players, so I drew a picture and thought about it...and then I got math involved...and I was kind of surprised.

Okay, so how do we cut our sticks now? We stand them on the toe of the blade and then measure up to our nose or chin or whatever, mark it off, and cut.

BUT, when we look at the math involved, this creates an error. The lower the lie of the stick and the more you cut it down, the more of an error this creates.

Look at the drawings and the math:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...tickLength.png

I took the lie angles from Warrior's website. The lies (4, 5, 6) may not be perfect with other measurements, but they are close.

When we hold the stick, we form a triangle. There is the height of the top hand, the length of the stick, and the angle to the ground (ice). But when we cut the stick vertically, we are cutting the hypotenuse of the triangle, which has a much larger effect on the top hand height.

By looking at the numbers, if you had a 5 lie blade and cut the stick down 1", it changes the top hand height by 1.4". This ends up creating a gap if we don't change the position of our top hand. If you cut your stick by a few inches, it will exaggerate this effect further.

Now this probably won't affect experienced players who know their ideal stick length, but it's something to keep in mind for newer players.

And I still think once I can go over this in my head, shorter players may benefit from lower lies that will allow us to use longer sticks, because it's possible we are proportionally using shorter sticks than average or tall players. I haven't worked out exactly how yet.

Anyways, something to chew on. Your thoughts? Bad math? Other ideas?

SydNap 08-06-2012 07:39 PM

I think another think to consider is arm length (everyone is different there as well) and where you like to play the puck. The closer in you play it, the higher the lie needs to be, the further out, the lower the lie needs to be. I'm at the point where I just try to experiment with sticks when I play pickup.

hockeymass 08-06-2012 08:10 PM

I cut mine to where the blade lies fully along the ground when I stand on skates with my arm at my side. That just so happens to be my chin with a P88 or equivalent. With a different curve, I'd have to re-evaluate.

Jarick 08-06-2012 10:48 PM

Yeah that's what I do as well. I hold the stick to where it lies flat when I am standing up and holding it with both hands, which is close to where it would be if I were on skates but with my knees bent. But I like to carry and shoot the puck a bit further out so the lower lie seems to work better.

I still think shorter players can benefit from lower lies more than taller players, because the angle to the ground is shallower for us shorties and it's steeper for the tall people. But I need to think about it more to figure out why. In theory, you'd just cut the stick down, but perhaps you don't want to get too far from an ideal length.

Fanned On It 08-07-2012 12:32 AM

This thread makes me sad that I forgot all of that math I learned throughout high-school... =(. I'm gonna have to relearn that stuff one day haha.

hyster110 08-07-2012 01:10 AM

i think you also have to take into account length of the curve cause a p88 is shorter than a p92 or a p91A

nullterm 08-07-2012 02:49 AM

Mighta been an equation mix up. I only know cause I still use those blasted sin/cos/tan equations a ton on a daily basis.

http://stingergames.com/junk/hockey/StickMath1.jpg

Chopping off 1" of a stick at lie 5 (45 degrees) means you change the height of the hand by 0.707".

The higher the lie, the more it affects your hand height when you cut it.

...

My Datsyuk is a 6 lie. The shaft is 55" long butt to heal. Rested against a wall with the blade flat (in the middle of the blade bottom), the butt is about 42" high from the ground. That means the angle y is about 49 degrees, the x angle 131 degrees. Which means the measured lie is around be 7, pretty close.

Jarick 08-07-2012 09:12 AM

YES, thanks you! I knew my math would get screwed up somewhere along the line.

This then makes a lot more sense. As you cut the stick down, the effective lie gets higher and higher, unless you cut down proportionally more of the stick.

So in order to keep the lie, you've got to cut down nearly 1.5" inches for every inch shorter you are. If you're trying to use a 6 lie at say 5'6, you are losing 3-4" additional in order to maintain that lie! That's on top of already losing 6-8" of stick length because of the height difference.

There's got to be some kind of "starter" angle where the lie is correct at a certain height, because of the length of the stick in relation to the hand. I would have to run the numbers, but it would be something like:

5'6 ~ 4 lie
5'10 ~ 5 lie
6'2 ~ 6 lie

It looks like most gear companies offer lower lies for junior and youth sticks, but at the intermediate level we are still stuck with 5-6 lies when there should be 4 lie options.

And this leads me to believe that it would be more important and beneficial to our games to get the stick length, flex, and lie all correct than to have the latest and greatest technology in the sticks. Having superior weight and balance is kind of meaningless if you're going to shag all your shots off to one side or the other.

It would be outstanding to have more options, especially at retail, for multiple blade lies. Good on Base for providing it, and for Warrior to have some lie options at the custom level, but it's too bad we are so limited.

esidebill 08-07-2012 10:11 AM

I'm 6'5, would a 6+ lie help more than a 5.5 lie?

Jarick 08-07-2012 11:03 AM

I'm still way too early in the development of this theory, but I've seen people (TBLfan and Mack from Mod Squad Hockey) who were very tall and used 7 lie sticks. But outside of pro stock, you can't really find lies over 6.

I'm guessing if you used a bit longer stick you could use a 6 lie just fine, like those of us who are shorter have to cut our sticks a bit shorter to use 5-5.5 lies.

esidebill 08-07-2012 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarick (Post 53350951)
I'm still way too early in the development of this theory, but I've seen people (TBLfan and Mack from Mod Squad Hockey) who were very tall and used 7 lie sticks. But outside of pro stock, you can't really find lies over 6.

I'm guessing if you used a bit longer stick you could use a 6 lie just fine, like those of us who are shorter have to cut our sticks a bit shorter to use 5-5.5 lies.

I've seen the P87 from Reebok that's a normal 7 lie, but that's a PITA to find.

Jarick 08-07-2012 11:10 AM

There used to be a Radek Bonk curve (P71?) from Bauer that was 7 lie.

It would be nice to have at least one ~4 lie and one ~7 lie available at retail, or at least special order.

I wonder if Base would expand their options to include > 6 lie curves down the road.

masshky 08-07-2012 12:39 PM

I had posed this question back in Nov '10.

In regards specifically to stick lie..

Does player height, EXcluding all other factors, play a significant role in dictating proper lie?

For example, does a taller player require a higher lie b/c he/she naturally holds the stick higher from the ice due to height alone?

For myself personally (6'2 off skates), I feel as though I can't possibly get low enough, especially with skates on, to use a lower lie angled stick and get full blade contact.

I'd appreciate any feedback.

http://www.sportsgiant-dev.com/unive...bladelies2.jpg

masshky 08-07-2012 01:53 PM

Link was broken, sorry.. this should work.

http://www.sportsgiant-dev.com/unive...bladelies2.jpg

opivy 08-07-2012 05:32 PM

I knew being 6'0" tall would pay off eventually.

I can never find any clothing in my size on sale, neither shoes, nor skates etc.

But my damn blade lie is pretty much what is advertised :P

Kulluminati 08-07-2012 05:33 PM

My method of cutting sticks has always been to stand on a platform that simulated how tall I was on skates and then just mess around with the stick, holding it at different areas (uncut stick) and when it feels natural I cut it. And 99% of the time my sticks are always the same curve/lie so I just use older ones as reference.

esidebill 08-08-2012 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by opivy (Post 53364123)
I knew being 6'0" tall would pay off eventually.

I can never find any clothing in my size on sale, neither shoes, nor skates etc.

But my damn blade lie is pretty much what is advertised :P

I do wish I wore size 12+ skates... the last pair of $199 top tier skates is always some ridiculous size.

Pez68 08-08-2012 02:32 PM

I think it's pretty cool that you tried to get math involved in this, but the problem is that the angles are ever changing. How you hold your stick constantly changes them. If you hold your hands closer together, the angle lessens. If you hold your hands further apart, the angle gets bigger because you are bringing the stick in closer to you. So a smaller player can use a longer stick assuming their hands are closer together. It is why you see guys in the NHL with ALL KINDS of different stick lengths. Some use them up to their chest, others up to their nose. It all depends on how you hold your stick most comfortably when on the ice. Some guys keep the puck right up next to them when they stickhandle, and others keep it much further out.

Basically, I don't cut my sticks at any set point when I buy them. What I do is cut them off around my nose on skates, and then work my way down until I find the point that is most comfortable for me. It sometimes takes 3-4 ice sessions to find that point(I choke down the stick usually to find the best height, then make note of it) Depending on the curve/lie, I have used sticks from my nose down to my chin.


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