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-   -   Proposal: Simmonds for another Leafs D (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1243119)

Hero 08-07-2012 10:50 PM

Simmonds for another Leafs D
 
So just trying to brainstorm here and get a sense of Simmonds value, and if a deal around Simmonds for a D makes sense at all, or if its possible. The Flyers-Leafs just swung a deal and maybe theres room for another possible trade.

Saw these Defence pairs posted on your forum a few times...

Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) / Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m)
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Luke Schenn ($3.600m)
Andreas Lilja ($0.738m) / Bruno Gervais ($0.825m)

With missing out on Weber, and with Meszaros done for 6-11 months, maybe one of the Leafs D could fill the need.

The Leafs lack size, and with JVR playing C for the leafs, still need help on the wings. Maybe a flyers Winger could fill this need.

I was wondering what D from the leafs matches up with Simmonds, value wise?

Liles, Gunnarsson, Franson, Holzer are four possible options. If a 1 for 1 doesn't make sense what if picks were involved?

flyershockey 08-07-2012 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hero (Post 53373197)
So just trying to brainstorm here and get a sense of Simmonds value, and if a deal around Simmonds for a D makes sense at all, or if its possible. The Flyers-Leafs just swung a deal and maybe theres room for another possible trade.

Saw these Defence pairs posted on your forum a few times...

Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) / Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m)
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Luke Schenn ($3.600m)
Andreas Lilja ($0.738m) / Bruno Gervais ($0.825m)

With missing out on Weber, and with Meszaros done for 6-11 months, maybe one of the Leafs D could fill the need.

The Leafs lack size, and with JVR playing C for the leafs, still need help on the wings. Maybe a flyers Winger could fill this need.

I was wondering what D from the leafs matches up with Simmonds, value wise?

Liles, Gunnarsson, Franson, Holzer are four possible options. If a 1 for 1 doesn't make sense what if picks were involved?

It's probably not going to happen for any of those guys honestly. I think it's become quite clear that none of the players that were part of the Richards or Carter deals are available; unless for a can't miss player or package.

The only guy the Flyers would look at it is Gardiner because he has the ability to be the number one, and the Leafs probably aren't looking to move him. I'm not saying those guys are awful, it's just that they are likely 2-5's when the Flyers really only need a number one. If we get that guy, everyone slides very nicely into a role that they're more suited for.

hockeyfreak7 08-07-2012 11:04 PM

Even with Meszaros gone we dont need any more middling defenders. Our needs are still the same.

Simmonds definitely wont leave unless we can land a top pairing defender in the deal. I'm quite confident about that.

CS 08-07-2012 11:38 PM

Want Simmonds?

Gardiner+.

Even then, I don't think we can afford to trade any more forwards for defense.

Broad Street Elite 08-07-2012 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Shafer (Post 53374473)
Want Simmonds?

Gardiner+.

Even then, I don't think we can afford to trade any more forwards for defense.

Your hatred of defense is astounding. Chris, if you were a coach, would you start 5 forwards? 6 on the PP? :laugh:

hockeyfreak7 08-08-2012 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite (Post 53374901)
Your hatred of defense is astounding. Chris, if you were a coach, would you start 5 forwards? 6 on the PP? :laugh:

I dont think it's a hatred of D at all. Look at our forward group. If you lose one more forward for a defender, suddenly our team is not so deep anymore.

Here's a lineup without Simmonds:

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
Read-Schenn-Briere
Wellwood-Couturier-Talbot
Rinaldo-Holmstrom-Sestito

Coburn-Gardiner (just a name, for the sake of discussion)
Timonen-Grossman
Schenn-Gustafsson

Is that really what we'd like to see? One injury and we suddenly have a very pedestrian offense and an equally unimpressive D.


The logical solution here is to keep our forward depth in tact, and try to patch our D without losing anymore assets.

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
Simmonds-Schenn-Briere
Read-Couturier-Wellwood
Sestito-Talbot-Rinaldo

Coburn-Grossman
Timonen-Schenn
Gustafsson-Roszival (again, just a name for discussion)


I think that is a much better group than the first. Our forward lineup is what keeps this team in the hunt. We cant afford to give that up to make a trade that would hopefully improve the quality of our D while making our depth significantly weaker.

Broad Street Elite 08-08-2012 12:17 AM

Firstly, Simmonds is our second worst defensive forward. So, trading him in some hypothetical deal for a defenseman serves a two fold purpose. Secondly, a player like Gardiner who can potentially play the point on a first unit power play fills what is shaping up to be one our biggest voids.

I am not advocating dumping Simmonds or Read for some random defenseman, but rather a parrallel talent on the blue line. I continue to trust this teams ability to find forwards a lot more than it's ability to find young defeneman. While a trade like Simmonds for Gardiner could certainly affect our forward depth this season, in the longterm it would give us 4 top 4 defenseman under 30 to build around. Depending on Mez's progression, we could then target a player like Perry in free agency in 2013.

I believe that thinking entirely about what's best for 2012 is a long term mistake.

P.s. you forgot Fedetenko

hockeyfreak7 08-08-2012 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite (Post 53375291)
Firstly, Simmonds is our second worst defensive forward. So, trading him in some hypothetical deal for a defenseman serves a two fold purpose. Secondly, a player like Gardiner who can potentially play the point on a first unit power play fills what is shaping up to be one our biggest voids.

I am not advocating dumping Simmonds or Read for some random defenseman, but rather a parrallel talent on the blue line. I continue to trust this teams ability to find forwards a lot more than it's ability to find young defeneman. While a trade like Simmonds for Gardiner could certainly affect our forward depth this season, in the longterm it would give us 4 top 4 defenseman under 30 to build around. Depending on Mez's progression, we could then target a player like Perry in free agency in 2013.

I believe that thinking entirely about what's best for 2012 is a long term mistake.

I dont necessarily disagree, but losing Simmonds and not replacing his production could be disastrous for the team in 2012.

If you're content to completely write the 2012-13 season as a 'building year', then I suppose you are absolutely correct.

But, personally, I think this team is easily good enough to still contend for the division. Once you get to that point, the rest is all about post season performance.

Losing Simmonds would make our forward group extremely average while making our D 'good' at best. I'd rather continue to have elite depth up front with an average D core than to be mediocre both on the front and on the back.

Since we know injuries are a guarantee (they are for every team), it's entirely likely that we would be forced to roll with a third line of, say, Wellwood-Talbot-Fedotenko at times next season. Our fourth line would then be entirely Phantoms. Not good at all.

Part of what made our team a strong contender for the division was the ability to withstand injuries to our top 6. Without guys like Simmonds, that would simply be impossible. And that is what depth is all about.

Ultimately, I would love to upgrade the D, but at the cost of shooting our greatest strength (depth), it is simply not worth it.


EDIT: Holy crap. I have been forgetting Fedotenko. I knew I was missing someone. Still, my point remains. Anything that forces us to give regular ice to players who cant handle it is bad. Losing a guy like Simmonds would do that, imo.

djlethal08 08-08-2012 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite (Post 53375291)
Firstly, Simmonds is our second worst defensive forward. So, trading him in some hypothetical deal for a defenseman serves a two fold purpose. Secondly, a player like Gardiner who can potentially play the point on a first unit power play fills what is shaping up to be one our biggest voids.

I am not advocating dumping Simmonds or Read for some random defenseman, but rather a parrallel talent on the blue line. I continue to trust this teams ability to find forwards a lot more than it's ability to find young defeneman. While a trade like Simmonds for Gardiner could certainly affect our forward depth this season, in the longterm it would give us 4 top 4 defenseman under 30 to build around. Depending on Mez's progression, we could then target a player like Perry in free agency in 2013.

I believe that thinking entirely about what's best for 2012 is a long term mistake.

P.s. you forgot Fedetenko

I agree with this. I'd hate to move Simmonds, but if the return is a potential #1 d-man it's a move that has to be made. Having said that I'm sure if any Leafs fans see this they'd say there's no way Simmonds is worth Gardiner.

Beef Invictus 08-08-2012 12:33 AM

I'm against trades. Teams know our situation and will try to fleece us. We'd have to overpay. Overall, we'd likely get worse.

CS 08-08-2012 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djlethal08 (Post 53375493)
I agree with this. I'd hate to move Simmonds, but if the return is a potential #1 d-man it's a move that has to be made. Having said that I'm sure if any Leafs fans see this they'd say there's no way Simmonds is worth Gardiner.

If I really thought Gardiner was a potential #1 defenseman then I would offer more than Simmonds to get Gardiner.

Which brings us back to my point: we should not be moving Simmonds for defense.

GoneFullHextall 08-08-2012 01:02 AM

Yup. the Flyers are in a position of weakness when dealing for another middle pairing defenseman. If holmgren feels he needs another 3/4 defenseman there are a few guys out on the market in FA who can fill the void for 1/2 a season or a full year if that was the case. No need to make a stupid panic trade for a 3/4 defenseman. Especially when its trading a top 6 forward.

BobbyClarkeFan16 08-08-2012 11:49 AM

The amount of hate that Jake Gardiner receives is hilarious and border line pathetic. He had a fantastic first year and has the makings to be a top 2 pairing defender. I don't get why @Chris Shafer you act like Gardiner is just another run of the mill defenseman. If Gardiner were playing anywhere other than Toronto, people would be marveling about his ability and how he's going to be a stud defenseman.

Honestly, if Simmonds were to be offered for Gardiner, I'd do it. As much as I love Simmonds and see him as a solid winger with 40 goal potential (let's not forget he potted 28 while getting third line minutes), Gardiner has top pairing potential. He's going to be real good.

SeanCWombBroom 08-08-2012 11:56 AM

Why lose Simmonds when you can sign a FA defenseman and keep the depth?

Mez is not that great and can be replaced by any of the 3 names being batted around right now.

SnS 08-08-2012 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 (Post 53383859)
The amount of hate that Jake Gardiner receives is hilarious and border line pathetic. He had a fantastic first year and has the makings to be a top 2 pairing defender. I don't get why @Chris Shafer you act like Gardiner is just another run of the mill defenseman. If Gardiner were playing anywhere other than Toronto, people would be marveling about his ability and how he's going to be a stud defenseman.

Honestly, if Simmonds were to be offered for Gardiner, I'd do it. As much as I love Simmonds and see him as a solid winger with 40 goal potential (let's not forget he potted 28 while getting third line minutes), Gardiner has top pairing potential. He's going to be real good.

It's that we can't afford to give up another forward without getting one in return, especially since it's a top 6/9 forward. Depends on where you see Simmonds playing this coming year.

I don't think I would do Simmonds for Gardiner, and no I haven't wrapped my head into the "LAWLZ HATE LEAF PLAYERS". I just don't think RIGHT now, that deal makes sense.

I see our lineup as:

Hartnell - Giroux - Voracek
Schenn - Briere - Simmonds
Wellwood - Couts - Read
Fedotenko - Talbot - Rinaldo/Shelley/etc

GoneFullHextall 08-08-2012 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 (Post 53383859)
The amount of hate that Jake Gardiner receives is hilarious and border line pathetic. He had a fantastic first year and has the makings to be a top 2 pairing defender. I don't get why @Chris Shafer you act like Gardiner is just another run of the mill defenseman. If Gardiner were playing anywhere other than Toronto, people would be marveling about his ability and how he's going to be a stud defenseman.

Honestly, if Simmonds were to be offered for Gardiner, I'd do it. As much as I love Simmonds and see him as a solid winger with 40 goal potential (let's not forget he potted 28 while getting third line minutes), Gardiner has top pairing potential. He's going to be real good.

i like Gardiner, but I dont think the Flyers can afford to trade another top forward especially a winger for a defenseman.
I dont think Gardiner is even close to being available. But thats another story

Tripod 08-08-2012 12:16 PM

replace Mez with Coli the #5 spot. Then when/if Mez comes back, he is like a playoff pickup. And yes...Coli will miss 20 games. Let the kids start getting icetime on D. Bourdon, Gus, Manning. Or say let the kids play NOW and sign no one. This way we find out if they are part of the future...or just fill-ins.

SnS 08-08-2012 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tripod (Post 53384709)
replace Mez with Coli the #5 spot. Then when/if Mez comes back, he is like a playoff pickup. And yes...Coli will miss 20 games. Let the kids start getting icetime on D. Bourdon, Gus, Manning. Or say let the kids play NOW and sign no one. This way we find out if they are part of the future...or just fill-ins.

No. Avoid Coli. He's a broken, brittle player. Pass.

shipwreck 08-08-2012 12:42 PM

Keep SImmonds.

flyershockey 08-08-2012 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tripod (Post 53384709)
replace Mez with Coli the #5 spot. Then when/if Mez comes back, he is like a playoff pickup. And yes...Coli will miss 20 games. Let the kids start getting icetime on D. Bourdon, Gus, Manning. Or say let the kids play NOW and sign no one. This way we find out if they are part of the future...or just fill-ins.

Between the Flyers inability to keep defensemen healthy, and Coli's inability to stay healthy, he would probably trip getting off the plane, break his neck, and never play a game for the team.

In reality, he has a good amount of skill, but he's certainly going to miss his fair share of games due to injuries. It wouldn't be worth it in my opinion. Might as well let the kids play and see what they've go to offer.

Reaper1097 08-08-2012 05:01 PM

What about PK Subban instead of gardiner?

There is speculation on twitter and hockey buzz that the flyers are trying to acquire him already.

How does he compare to gardiner? Who has more upside?

Would Simmonds+ for Subban be more realistic?

Flukeshot 08-08-2012 05:06 PM

Definitely need to replace Mesz via a UFA so that we're simply back in the position of needing one top D that could be acquired via trade.

Alchemy 08-08-2012 05:08 PM

The most likely scenario is we sign a UFA vet or the team goes into the season with what they got until the deadline nears when they have a more accurate projection of where this team is headed. I don't see any trades until the deadline. If there is one soon it will be a middle pairing defenseman. It will not be a top player.

Spongolium* 08-09-2012 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper1097 (Post 53394919)
What about PK Subban instead of gardiner?

There is speculation on twitter and hockey buzz that the flyers are trying to acquire him already.

How does he compare to gardiner? Who has more upside?

Would Simmonds+ for Subban be more realistic?

Eklund is as reliable as a wet fart

Broad Street Elite 08-09-2012 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spongolium (Post 53417595)
Eklund is as reliable as a wet fart

If I eat enough buffalo wings, I'd suggest that a wet fart is a pretty reliable follow-up event.


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