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-   -   Proposal: Sens-Panthers-Oilers (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=124410)

Cloned 01-18-2005 12:08 AM

Proposal: Sens-Panthers-Oilers
 
At the risk of getting bombarded and flamed, I'll post what I suggested in the Oilers forum here to get some wider opinion about it.

To Florida:
F Martin Havlat
D Jason Smith or D Steve Staios

To Edmonton:
F Olli Jokinen
F Niklas Hagman or F Kristian Huselius
2nd round pick FLA (if Steve Staios is sent to FLA, scratch this)

To Ottawa:
F Ryan Smyth
*F Georges Laraque or F Brad Isbister

The italic part... I'm not sure of. From one standpoint the Oilers may be giving up too much. From another the Sens may not want to part with Havlat for Smyth alone.

EDIT: A second 'bare-bones' proposal, maybe more palatable to Oiler fans, but Florida/Ottawa fans are more likely to reject it completely.

Florida gets Havlat, Staios, +/- Rita
Edmonton gets Jokinen, Hagman/Huselius
Ottawa gets Smyth

trentmccleary 01-18-2005 12:12 AM

You sir, have brass cajones! I applaud your willingness to throw yourself to the wolves. :handclap:

Cloned 01-18-2005 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trentmccleary
You sir, have brass cajones! I applaud your willingness to throw yourself to the wolves. :handclap:

Believe me, I'm well aware that I could be ripped to shreds.

I take it, then, from your statement that you do not think this trade is good for any involved? :dunno:

EDIT: I suppose I should be glad it's quiet in this forum for the moment.

sunb 01-18-2005 12:25 AM

Actually this is a very fair trade.

To Florida:
F Martin Havlat
D Jason Smith

To Edmonton:
F Olli Jokinen
F Niklas Hagman or F Kristian Huselius
2nd round pick FLA

To Ottawa:
F Ryan Smyth
Georges Laraque

This is the fairest option imo and gives all three teams something they need.

Florida needs a top line LW as they have guys like Horton, Olesz, Weiss, etc. And they also need a veteran defenseman like Smith.

Edmonton needs a premier 1st line center and Jokinen is young and physical, two added bonuses for Edmonton.

Ottawa gets Smyth, a leader who is willing to sacrifice his body by parking himself in front of the net. (Not necessarily saying this has been Ottawa's problem in the past couple of playoffs but it at least satisfies the fans and maybe allows Ottawa to get over its psychological hump.)

Perfect trade, but in a post-CBA world, the financial dynamics may all change and Edmonton may be a big-time consumer while teams like Ottawa may have to shed salary. To we'll probably have to table this trade indefinitely.

trentmccleary 01-18-2005 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloned
Believe me, I'm well aware that I could be ripped to shreds.

I take it, then, from your statement that you do not think this trade is good for any involved? :dunno:

Actually, it's not bad.

Ottawa- we risk UFA with Smyth but add a key piece and get a little more for our young player.
Edmonton- adds the center they need. Weakens the defense though, which might hurt. Huselius might end up being better in the West on a skating team.
Florida- this was the one POV I might have thought would decline. But personally, when I saw that list of maybes up and down their wings... I'd do this.
However, that's not to say that Fla fan won't hit you with the Keenan & Martin would never want Havlat as a key player. It would be a debateable argument.

Cloned 01-18-2005 12:32 AM

Good to know I wasn't crazy for thinking the value was close.

The post-lockout environment may well make this trade unviable, but I don't think the salary discrepancy between the players in the trade is large enough to make one of the teams decline because of a cap or what not. I agree with one thing: the fact that some teams might be willing to dump expensive centers to the Oilers for less -- that could make a huge difference.

Vyse64 01-18-2005 01:10 AM

my beef has 2 reasons
1st is Huselius or Hagman crowned LW with The oilers, ok Ryan Smyth is traded added Jokinen, where to play Mike York? easy LW on a line with Horcoff and either Pisani/Hemsky and have Torres with Jokinen and Dvorak

change the Huselius or Hagman option to d-men and no i'm not suggesting Krajicek

2nd reason, Leadership (this can be fixed within the Oilers) is gone big blow to that, lose a captain in Jason Smith and an A in Ryan Smyth, granted Jokinen is the captain of Florida but you can't expect a new guy to take over like that especially one thats young like Olli, best choice for the Oilers name Ethan Moreau the new Captain, Staios has the 1st A, give the other A to someone like Brewer (had the A for a short time last season) or maybe an older guy like Ulanov

Cloned 01-18-2005 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HemskyFreak83
my beef has 2 reasons
1st is Huselius or Hagman crowned LW with The oilers, ok Ryan Smyth is traded added Jokinen, where to play Mike York? easy LW on a line with Horcoff and either Pisani/Hemsky and have Torres with Jokinen and Dvorak

change the Huselius or Hagman option to d-men and no i'm not suggesting Krajicek

2nd reason, Leadership (this can be fixed within the Oilers) is gone big blow to that, lose a captain in Jason Smith and an A in Ryan Smyth, granted Jokinen is the captain of Florida but you can't expect a new guy to take over like that especially one thats young like Olli, best choice for the Oilers name Ethan Moreau the new Captain, Staios has the 1st A, give the other A to someone like Brewer (had the A for a short time last season) or maybe an older guy like Ulanov

I don't quite understand. Are you saying that you have 2 beefs with the proposal, which can later be resolved from within? :dunno:

RiversQ 01-18-2005 01:27 AM

Gutsy move again and this time on the trade board. :) I'd still prefer to deal Brewer instead of Smith, but that might ruin your entire deal because I don't think Ottawa or Florida would be terribly interested in Brewer. If Florida was interested then the Oilers would need a little extra overall out of this 3-team deal.

Cloned 01-18-2005 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiversQ
Gutsy move again and this time on the trade board. :) I'd still prefer to deal Brewer instead of Smith, but that might ruin your entire deal because I don't think Ottawa or Florida would be terribly interested in Brewer. If Florida was interested then the Oilers would need a little extra overall out of this 3-team deal.

It's not so much gutsy as a need for validation as I couldn't find any on the Oilers board... ;) (just kidding)

Florida already has a good variety of young defenseman and IMOthey wouldn't go for Brewer over a veteran presence like Smith, especially because they'd likely have to give up more. I'm not sure if Ottawa is even really looking for another defenseman, period.

Cerebral 01-18-2005 01:49 AM

It's actually a pretty fair deal value wise. I'd definitely consider it as an Oilers fan...

Bileur 01-18-2005 02:06 AM

I like this offer, pretty balanced IMO.


Its a deal from a sens POV (the one where we get Laraque).

Vyse64 01-18-2005 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloned
I don't quite understand. Are you saying that you have 2 beefs with the proposal, which can later be resolved from within? :dunno:

beef 1: Huselius or Hagman option, change it to a defensemen from Florida (ex. Mezei, Trnka)

beef 2: the one where you kind of confused was the leadership part (the can that can be fixed within) but its still a big blow to lose two vets that can lead the team like that

Detox 01-18-2005 02:20 AM

solid deal throughout and I was kinda surprised by the amount of heat it recieved on the Oilers board.

The only problem I have with this deal as a Oiler fan, is the hit we take on defence. Smith is a top 4defenceman in the league IMO and other then Brewer and Staios, we need someone to step it up bigtime to fill Smith's skates. Semenov might be ready to take that leap, but I dont beleive we have the depth in the backend to support "Conkanen" ;) .

Overall all three teams benefit, but from an Oiler standpoint, I believe your addressing a weakness yet creating a new one.

:handclap: applaud the effort, not often will you see a well thought out proposal on the trade boards.

Cloned 01-18-2005 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HotSizzle
solid deal throughout and I was kinda surprised by the amount of heat it recieved on the Oilers board.

The only problem I have with this deal as a Oiler fan, is the hit we take on defence. Smith is a top 4defenceman in the league IMO and other then Brewer and Staios, we need someone to step it up bigtime to fill Smith's skates. Semenov might be ready to take that leap, but I dont beleive we have the depth in the backend to support "Conkanen" ;) .

Overall all three teams benefit, but from an Oiler standpoint, I believe your addressing a weakness yet creating a new one.

:handclap: applaud the effort, not often will you see a well thought out proposal on the trade boards.

Thanks. :)

It's true that Smith would not be easy to replace (he's probably irreplacable as it stands). It was my hope that one of Greene, Woywitka, or Lynch would step up and make the squad, along with Semenov. Granted, that's a lot of rookies (if you count M-A Bergeron) on the defensive corps, but I think the forward depth gets better (the importance of a #1 C is something I firmly believe in).

I saw it this way: the defensive hole left by Smith can be more immediately replaced with Lynch, Semenov, Woywitka, etc. while the lack of a #1 C will take longer with Pouliot or Schremp.

barrytrotzsneck 01-18-2005 02:43 AM

whew, edmonton makes out like bandits in this one.

Cloned 01-18-2005 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomorekids
whew, edmonton makes out like bandits in this one.

I'm curious as to why you think this. This is contrary to every other opinion I've heard so far. (I'm *not* saying your opinion is 'wrong'; you're the first one to express this and if you could elaborate maybe I can refine my proposal).

And if you were being sarcastic, well, my sarcasm detector has been failing recently so you'll have to forgive me if I mistake sincerity for sarcasm (or vice versa).

Pepper 01-18-2005 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomorekids
whew, edmonton makes out like bandits in this one.

Not too constructive criticism there, it would help your credibility if you offered even a little insight *why* you think Oilers wins that trade so easily.

SENSible1* 01-18-2005 06:57 AM

Really difficult to evaluate this trade until we see the terms of the new CBA.

Under the old system it isn't too bad, but my suggestion is that the new CBA will make young cheap productive players the most valuable asset in the league. As such, I'd expect to see Ottawa get back more for Havlat than a player they could pick up as a free agent and a reluctant enforcer.

CREW99AW 01-18-2005 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloned
At the risk of getting bombarded and flamed, I'll post what I suggested in the Oilers forum here to get some wider opinion about it.

To Florida:
F Martin Havlat
D Jason Smith or D Steve Staios

To Edmonton:
F Olli Jokinen
F Niklas Hagman or F Kristian Huselius
2nd round pick FLA (if Steve Staios is sent to FLA, scratch this)

To Ottawa:
F Ryan Smyth
*F Georges Laraque or F Brad Isbister

The italic part... I'm not sure of. From one standpoint the Oilers may be giving up too much. From another the Sens may not want to part with Havlat for Smyth alone.

EDIT: A second 'bare-bones' proposal, maybe more palatable to Oiler fans, but Florida/Ottawa fans are more likely to reject it completely.

Florida gets Havlat, Staios, +/- Rita
Edmonton gets Jokinen, Hagman/Huselius
Ottawa gets Smyth


Havalt will score more,but don't underestimate Jokenin's value to FL.I'm not sure Keenan would make the Havlat for Jokenin exchange.

shadoz19 01-18-2005 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CREW99AW
Havalt will score more,but don't underestimate Jokenin's value to FL.I'm not sure Keenan would make the Havlat for Jokenin exchange.

I think you would almost have better luck getting J-Bo out of Florida than Jokinen. Jokinen is the leader they need.

chayter_con1 01-18-2005 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloned
At the risk of getting bombarded and flamed, I'll post what I suggested in the Oilers forum here to get some wider opinion about it.

To Florida:
F Martin Havlat
D Jason Smith or D Steve Staios

To Edmonton:
F Olli Jokinen
F Niklas Hagman or F Kristian Huselius
2nd round pick FLA (if Steve Staios is sent to FLA, scratch this)

To Ottawa:
F Ryan Smyth
*F Georges Laraque or F Brad Isbister

The italic part... I'm not sure of. From one standpoint the Oilers may be giving up too much. From another the Sens may not want to part with Havlat for Smyth alone.

EDIT: A second 'bare-bones' proposal, maybe more palatable to Oiler fans, but Florida/Ottawa fans are more likely to reject it completely.

Florida gets Havlat, Staios, +/- Rita
Edmonton gets Jokinen, Hagman/Huselius
Ottawa gets Smyth

I would be super PO'd if this was an actual trade. The oilers arent getting much for what they are giving up. Staios will never leave, to me he is an integral portion of the oilers D. Jason smith, he is great but his time in Edmonton is over and we have too much young talent to keep his salary on board. Ulanov and Staios will be the vets on the blue line so no worries. Smyth is a lifer, the oilers wouldnt trade him for Jokinen and Hagman/Huselius . . . I dont think they want to trade him. Pass of Jason and make Ryan captain would be the smart move. Georges doesnt reall want to play anywhere else from what ive heard so any deal involving him wouldnt be feesable.

All in all the only two players I would package up and deal if I was lowe would be Jason Smith and Brad Isbister.

. . . and by the way, I cant stand Isbister.

Darth Milbury 01-18-2005 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloned
At the risk of getting bombarded and flamed, I'll post what I suggested in the Oilers forum here to get some wider opinion about it.

To Florida:
F Martin Havlat
D Jason Smith or D Steve Staios

To Edmonton:
F Olli Jokinen
F Niklas Hagman or F Kristian Huselius
2nd round pick FLA (if Steve Staios is sent to FLA, scratch this)

To Ottawa:
F Ryan Smyth
*F Georges Laraque or F Brad Isbister

The italic part... I'm not sure of. From one standpoint the Oilers may be giving up too much. From another the Sens may not want to part with Havlat for Smyth alone.

EDIT: A second 'bare-bones' proposal, maybe more palatable to Oiler fans, but Florida/Ottawa fans are more likely to reject it completely.

Florida gets Havlat, Staios, +/- Rita
Edmonton gets Jokinen, Hagman/Huselius
Ottawa gets Smyth


EDM doesn't give up nearly enough here.
FLA is not trading Olli J.
Ottawa is not getting enough back fro Havlat.

Quantas 01-18-2005 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloned
At the risk of getting bombarded and flamed, I'll post what I suggested in the Oilers forum here to get some wider opinion about it.

To Florida:
F Martin Havlat
D Jason Smith or D Steve Staios

To Edmonton:
F Olli Jokinen
F Niklas Hagman or F Kristian Huselius
2nd round pick FLA (if Steve Staios is sent to FLA, scratch this)

To Ottawa:
F Ryan Smyth
*F Georges Laraque or F Brad Isbister

The italic part... I'm not sure of. From one standpoint the Oilers may be giving up too much. From another the Sens may not want to part with Havlat for Smyth alone.

EDIT: A second 'bare-bones' proposal, maybe more palatable to Oiler fans, but Florida/Ottawa fans are more likely to reject it completely.

Florida gets Havlat, Staios, +/- Rita
Edmonton gets Jokinen, Hagman/Huselius
Ottawa gets Smyth

Sorry, but I guess I'm one of the few Sens fans to turn this trade down. The Sens are definitely not getting enough for Havlat.

The "Barebones" scenario is a non-starter and as for the first proposal, they get a excellent LW who has some problem with injuries and is only a few years away from being a UFA, and an "enforcer" (is he really still considered one?) who might not be willing to play his game outside of Rexall Place. Too many ifs and maybes here for my liking.

One thing that could even it out is if a 2nd round pick (from someone) goes to Ottawa, but odds are that still wouldn't do it since the Sens are looking for help today, not tomorrow.

barrytrotzsneck 01-18-2005 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pepper
Not too constructive criticism there, it would help your credibility if you offered even a little insight *why* you think Oilers wins that trade so easily.


Well, for the sake of my "credibility," I'll point out that each team is giving up one "impact" player. Smyth, Havlat, Jokinen. Smyth is the least of the three, at least in my opinion. Throwing in a 7-8 goal enforcer that doesn't even fight all that often anymore doesn't seem enough to land one of the best young centers in the game and a decent third liner in Hagman. Ottawa and Florida end up with some good stuff, but after giving up much more than Edmonton.


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