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-   -   Another Havlat proposal, one no one will like. (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=124913)

Ismellofhockey 01-20-2005 05:53 PM

Another Havlat proposal, one no one will like.
 
To Los Angeles: Martin Havlat + Todd White

To Ottawa: Alexander Frolov + 4th

I added White simply because I thought the Kings could use another veteran forward seeing how they lack depth on a permanent basis due to injury. I just thought it might entice LA fans a little more to give up their Cadillac.

Oh and yes, I'm bored, I keep coming to HF hoping to find CBA news and get little reward for my time.

Classic Devil 01-20-2005 05:56 PM

You're right. No one will like this. Ottawa fans will say Havlat is worth more than Frolov because he's more proven and that to add White also is robbery, LA fans will say Frolov is worth more than Havlat because of potential.

Some LA fans might jump on this... I might if I was a Kings fan, but I really like Frolov too, so maybe not.

willie 01-20-2005 06:03 PM

No thank you. We'll keep Frolov thanks.

willie 01-20-2005 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flame_Star_Devil
Some LA fans might jump on this... I might if I was a Kings fan, but I really like Frolov too, so maybe not.

And, honestly, you probably wont find a Kings fan on this board who would jump on that deal. Havlat is a terrific talent and all but Frolov is the best homegrown product LA has had in a long time.

Porn* 01-20-2005 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willie
And, honestly, you probably wont find a Kings fan on this board who would jump on that deal. Havlat is a terrific talent and all but Frolov is the best homegrown product LA has had in a long time.

If I were LA i'd jump all over it...

in their primes havlat>frolov

Twist and Shout 01-20-2005 06:14 PM

If I were LA, I'd stay the hell away from it. Frolov = the next impact player.

V for Voodoo 01-20-2005 06:15 PM

Havlat = Already is one.

Amen evil king 01-20-2005 06:25 PM

Frolov is the man.

salty justice 01-20-2005 06:26 PM

Im an LA fan, and Id jump all over this! Havlat is better than Frolov now and possibly in the future. They are similar players right now, Havlat is a year older and more established, and the only thing giving Frolov more upside is if he fills out his frame and becomes more physical. Possible, but unlikely for a Russian to be a power forward. Sure Frolov is "home grown" but I think Havlat's game makes him more likely for a fan favorite than Frolov.

White for a 4th is a good deal for the Kings as well. They could use a vet with heart after losing most of their older players in the last year. White's effort would be a good example for the young prospects coming up in the next couple years for the Kings. Just as long as he isnt too expensive to sign.

Matty 01-20-2005 06:28 PM

Well, at least take out White & the 4th.

Havlat for Frolov...

Why the Sens do it...they could use the switch between Left and Right side that the swap offers. Cheaper.

Why the Sens don't do it...Havlat is more proven than Frolov and their upside is relatively equal.

Why LA does it...Havlat is more proven.

Why they don't...Frolov is cheaper. Frolov has more size.

Overall: not a bad proposal. It has its strengths. But in the end, I just can't see either team making the move.

willie 01-20-2005 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porn*
If I were LA i'd jump all over it...

in their primes havlat>frolov

Given that neither is in their primes, not sure where you get off making that statement. And I have serious reservations about that one.

Quote:

Havlat = Already is one.
Who says Frolov isn't? He's among the leaders in the RSL in scoring and a part of a small group hovering around a PPG. He had a 24 goal season last year in the NHL and given his play this year, believing Frolov could already score 30 goals in the NHL is quite realistic.

And then you have to factor in that Frolov, at 22, is already LA's best defensive forward. And he's 6'3 and still filling out. And he has an uncanny ability to control the puck for long strectches at a time ala Jason Allison. And he is a quality character individual.

I really, really like Havlat. But Frolov has just so much ability and potential. It's possible that Frolov is just teasing us and wont be as good as most Kings fans anticipate but I really don't care. He's shown too much not to ride it out with him and see what he develops into. (Unless, of course, sometimes offers to ridiculously overpay for Frolov. Havlat, however, is not a ridiculous overpayment.)

V for Voodoo 01-20-2005 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willie
Who says Frolov isn't?

The poster who said he is the 'next' impact player, and me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willie
And then you have to factor in that Frolov, at 22 <snip>

And he's 6'3 and still filling out <snip>

And he is a quality character individual <snip>

Bodes well for becoming an impact player, but doesn't make him one already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willie
It's possible that Frolov is just teasing us and wont be as good as most Kings fans anticipate but I really don't care.

Well, I do. I'll pass.

willie 01-20-2005 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo

Bodes well for becoming an impact player, but doesn't make him one already.

Frolov already has:

- scored 24 goals in an NHL season
- become LA's best defensive forward
- shown remarkable ability at controlling the puck for extended periods of time
- been one of the top scorers in the RSL

I guess it depends on how you define 'impact' player but Frolov has already made a decent case. (and, imo, would be stating that case quite emphatically in the NHL right now)

Quote:

Well, I do. I'll pass
Then we can both agree. But as a Sens fan (albeit Kings fan first) who has seen a lot of Frolov, I would be very much interested in the idea of a Frolov/Havlat swap. (obviously Ottawa's strength at RW makes this deal more palatable as well but I really think you are underrating Frolov's capabilities)

How about this proposal:

to OTT - D. Brown, L. Visnovsky, 5th rd pick
to LOS - M. Havlat

Ottawa gets a terrific player in Brown who fills a need now and in the future in Ottawa's lineup. (and he's been playing LW) He's playing really well offensively in the AHL right now and I think he could be easily slotted alongside some of Ottawa's skill players and fit in very well.

I also really like the idea of Visnovsky in Ottawa. Vis is a solid two way defenseman (despite his size) who would round out a very strong defense corps 1-6. I also like the thought of Chara-Visnovsky as partners. :)

Psycho Papa Joe 01-20-2005 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ismellofhockey
To Los Angeles: Martin Havlat + Todd White

To Ottawa: Alexander Frolov + 4th

I added White simply because I thought the Kings could use another veteran forward seeing how they lack depth on a permanent basis due to injury. I just thought it might entice LA fans a little more to give up their Cadillac.

Oh and yes, I'm bored, I keep coming to HF hoping to find CBA news and get little reward for my time.

Terrible deal for the Sens. You never trade a young proven talent for a much less proven player of Frolov's calibre. I doubt Frolov will ever be a better player than Havlat and if at best Frolov reaches Havlat's calibre, why would Ottawa take the chance? They already have the real deal. Why risk dealing him for Frolov who is still more of a roll of the dice.

The Kings would have to throw in something significantly better than a 4th to make this deal work.

V for Voodoo 01-20-2005 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willie
Frolov already has:

- scored 24 goals in an NHL season
- become LA's best defensive forward
- shown remarkable ability at controlling the puck for extended periods of time

I guess it depends on how you define 'impact' player but Frolov has already made a decent case. (and, imo, would be stating that case quite emphatically in the NHL right now)

That's a Bonk sized impact. Not exactly what comes to my mind when I think of 'the next impact player' in the league, but you may have a different interpretation. Frolov will be better thank Bonk and probably soon; Havlat already is.


Quote:

Originally Posted by willie
- been one of the top scorers in the RSL

Yeah, but he's got nothing on Rosa.


Quote:

Originally Posted by willie
Then we can both agree. But as a Sens fan (albeit Kings fan first) who has seen a lot of Frolov, I would be very much interested in the idea of a Frolov/Havlat swap. (obviously Ottawa's strength at RW makes this deal more palatable as well but I really think you are underrating Frolov's capabilities)

Frolov being a center is what makes this offer interesting. If I'm going to move Havlat though, I'd rather receive a player with more experience, not less. I disagree that I am underrating Frolov, I've only said that he isn't an impact player - yet. By my definition, he isn't.


Quote:

Originally Posted by willie
How about this proposal:

to OTT - D. Brown, L. Visnovsky, 5th rd pick
to LOS - M. Havlat

I say no for the same reasons as the Frolov deal. Ottawa's time is now and Brown's time is in two or three years at least. I think L.A is better off keeping Brown and Visnovsky anyways.

Fat Elvis 01-20-2005 08:13 PM

Why are there so many Havlat proposals? If he is this great talent, why all the rush to propose trades involving him? Or are we just a bunch of bored fans throwing pasta til it sticks?

Titanium 01-20-2005 08:21 PM

Probably the Sens' depth at RW! If they didn't have the depth, they wouldn't even consider dealing him, I don't think!

Wondercarrot 01-20-2005 10:01 PM

Quote:

Or are we just a bunch of bored fans throwing pasta til it sticks?
bingo

Epsilon 01-20-2005 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KING ELVI
Why are there so many Havlat proposals? If he is this great talent, why all the rush to propose trades involving him? Or are we just a bunch of bored fans throwing pasta til it sticks?

He's a desirable player playing a position where Ottawa has a ton of depth.

2112 01-20-2005 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porn*
If I were LA i'd jump all over it...

in their primes havlat>frolov

Ditto. This shouldn't even be close.

Reaper45 01-20-2005 10:56 PM

All I have to say to the people saying that Havlat than Frolov, is look at who he's been playing with, and then look at who Frolov has been playing with.

FlyersFan10* 01-20-2005 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper45
All I have to say to the people saying that Havlat than Frolov, is look at who he's been playing with, and then look at who Frolov has been playing with.

But you can say that about a lot of players in the league though. Fact of the matter is this. When it comes to pure talent and skill, there is no comparison. Havlat IS the better player. That's not to say Frolov isn't a good player because he is mighty fine player. But he is not in Havlat's league yet. Not even close. When you consider that Havlat averaged a point a game on the third line, I'd shudder to think what Havlat would really do if he were on the first line.

As for right wingers in Ottawa, don't kid yourself. Alfredsson would go before either one of Hossa or Havlat. I'm sure Ottawa fans would have a frenzy with what I said, but fact of the matter is this. Age is on the side of Hossa and Havlat. Contracts are also on the side of Hossa and Havlat. Alfredsson would give Ottawa a really really nice return for a team on the bubble or a team like the Red Wings. The only way Havlat or Hossa move is if someone like a Thornton, Iginla, Richards, or Lecavalier are involved.

Reaper45 01-20-2005 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
But you can say that about a lot of players in the league though. Fact of the matter is this. When it comes to pure talent and skill, there is no comparison. Havlat IS the better player. That's not to say Frolov isn't a good player because he is mighty fine player. But he is not in Havlat's league yet. Not even close. When you consider that Havlat averaged a point a game on the third line, I'd shudder to think what Havlat would really do if he were on the first line.

As for right wingers in Ottawa, don't kid yourself. Alfredsson would go before either one of Hossa or Havlat. I'm sure Ottawa fans would have a frenzy with what I said, but fact of the matter is this. Age is on the side of Hossa and Havlat. Contracts are also on the side of Hossa and Havlat. Alfredsson would give Ottawa a really really nice return for a team on the bubble or a team like the Red Wings. The only way Havlat or Hossa move is if someone like a Thornton, Iginla, Richards, or Lecavalier are involved.

While I agree, Ottawa's 3rd line is like our first line without Palffy.

bland 01-21-2005 12:49 AM

Clearly, the only only thing worth noting in this thread is just how little the responding Sens fans know about Alexander Frolov.

Frolov "not even close" to Havlat?

Frolov a center?

Dustin Brown AND Lubomir Visnovsky not enough for Havlat?


Please, these statements are either factually untrue or just plain ridiculous.

Martin Havlat is exceptionally skilled, and will continue to prove so.

Alexander Frolov may not have the flashy skills of Havlat, but the kid scored 24 goals on a team with a revolving door line up, and was, in fact, the most defensively responsible forward on a team with very little, well, anything.

It's an interesting proposal because both players would command a similar return in negotiations with other teams. Frolov is already the more complete player, and this is coming from a West Coast Kings and Sens fan who rarely misses an Ottawa game on Center Ice. Right now, I'd expect Havlat to provide 20-25 more points a season than Frolov, but two years from now the difference between their offensive numbers shouldn't be so overwhelming. Frolov's defensive presence, ability to play in heavy traffic, and board play is enough to make these players at least of equal value, with a leaning towards Frolov.

The trade makes much more sense from a Sens perspective than the Kings'. Ottawa improves an area of weakness (LW, and a player who can thrive in physically challenging situations), but it would be at best a lateral move for Los Angeles (maybe more offense, but without the intangibles Frolov provides).

Please note that while Frolov may only be entering his third season, he is not an unknown quantity. His growth as a player has been consitent and obvious, and as a long suffering Kings' fan, it has been an absolute pleasure to watch him develop so quickly. He has no weaknesses, and is on pace to become a 30-goal, 70-75 point player in his next season.

Bileur 01-21-2005 01:12 AM

Using Smyth's "intangibles" in a Havlat argument to differenciate value is one thing but Frolov's?

........

Havlat for Frolov is pretty much lateral IMO, lose some D gain some O.

Ottawa loses out on the 2nd part. White is more valuable to us centering Alfie than a 4th rd pick.

Keep Frolov we'll keep Havlat.


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