HFBoards

HFBoards (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/index.php)
-   OHL (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=148)
-   -   Here comes the Union (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1249431)

HLLYWD99 08-21-2012 05:24 AM

Here comes the Union
 
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/08/20...union-in-works

About time IMHO!

Crottenham 08-21-2012 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLLYWD99 (Post 53743867)

It was inevitable I think. The owners must be pretty upset at this development!

bidzey 08-21-2012 07:12 AM

I don't think it's a good idea. There should be something in place that stops the owners from all out abusing the system, but a union that would represent mostly kids gives me a gutt feeling that it's not to the player's best interest. The last thing you need when you're between the ages of 16-20 is to NOT play hockey while you're trying to make the NHL. You can hurt a player's progress not only physicaly but mentally too. Yea sure... you could still skate and train, but that's not the same thing. CHL although it is a business, it's also a development program and there's no room for unions in a atmosphere like that.

Just my 5 cents....

hockeylegend11 08-21-2012 07:23 AM

Would not surprise me if the 400 grand the spits are to pay the league goes to the havenots in the league ie Owen Sd,Erie,Peterborough in order to satisfy the unions desire for increased edc funding per player

Crottenham 08-21-2012 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bidzey (Post 53744505)
I don't think it's a good idea. There should be something in place that stops the owners from all out abusing the system, but a union that would represent mostly kids gives me a gutt feeling that it's not to the player's best interest. The last thing you need when you're between the ages of 16-20 is to NOT play hockey while you're trying to make the NHL. You can hurt a player's progress not only physicaly but mentally too. Yea sure... you could still skate and train, but that's not the same thing. CHL although it is a business, it's also a development program and there's no room for unions in a atmosphere like that.

Just my 5 cents....

Given the rise of some of the bigger franchises and their ensuing top-line revenue, it is again not surprising the unions now see an easy mark. With success comes increased scrutiny and unions have taken a beating generally in recent years in the greater economy; this membership drive is just another avenue to increase their own revenues.

If there are work stoppages in the future in junior hockey, pro scouting becomes even that much more difficult.

Development program or not, these kids are more or less employees. Perhaps the weekly stipend they currently get is immaterial, but factor in the accruing of the annual education package even as it is currently constituted and that is ultimately their remuneration.

It's going to be a whole new world going forward.

wjhl2009fan 08-21-2012 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crottenham (Post 53744821)
Given the rise of some of the bigger franchises and their ensuing top-line revenue, it is again not surprising the unions now see an easy mark. With success comes increased scrutiny and unions have taken a beating generally in recent years in the greater economy; this membership drive is just another avenue to increase their own revenues.

If there are work stoppages in the future in junior hockey, pro scouting becomes even that much more difficult.

Development program or not, these kids are more or less employees. Perhaps the weekly stipend they currently get is immaterial, but factor in the accruing of the annual education package even as it is currently constituted and that is ultimately their remuneration.

It's going to be a whole new world going forward.

If the numbers are true and this union gets a cut of ticket sales/concession/tv rights/sales i am not sure how well this will look not just to the public but other unions.

wjhl2009fan 08-21-2012 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLLYWD99 (Post 53743867)

Why do you think its good?

bidzey 08-21-2012 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crottenham (Post 53744821)
Given the rise of some of the bigger franchises and their ensuing top-line revenue, it is again not surprising the unions now see an easy mark. With success comes increased scrutiny and unions have taken a beating generally in recent years in the greater economy; this membership drive is just another avenue to increase their own revenues.

If there are work stoppages in the future in junior hockey, pro scouting becomes even that much more difficult.

Development program or not, these kids are more or less employees. Perhaps the weekly stipend they currently get is immaterial, but factor in the accruing of the annual education package even as it is currently constituted and that is ultimately their remuneration.

It's going to be a whole new world going forward.

that's exacly what I was thinking... I belonged to various unions for over 37 years and it's mostly about your money, more than your employment status. These kids are housed, fed, educated all for free, and loved by thousands of fans. What a terrible life they have! They are not employees, they are in a unique prep program, and a union would serve only as an expesive distraction. The more I think about it the more I can see how distructive it would be to the kids. That group that call themselves the "CHLPA" should be approached by all the players picked up by them, and thrown away as far as they can throw them.

Ward Cornell 08-21-2012 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan (Post 53744865)
If the numbers are true and this union gets a cut of ticket sales/concession/tv rights/sales i am not sure how well this will look not just to the public but other unions.

Concession sales?
Doesn't most arenas(cities) own the concession rights?
I really don't see how this works out.
IMHO the final outcome is that the leagues will "up" the pay package and rework the Education Packages.

Crottenham 08-21-2012 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ward Cornell (Post 53744971)
Concession sales?
Doesn't most arenas(cities) own the concession rights?
I really don't see how this works out.
IMHO the final outcome is that the leagues will "up" the pay package and rework the Education Packages.

It may also make it alot more complicated for Mr. Branch to launch into some of the massive suspensions he has recently instituted of players, going forward......

bidzey 08-21-2012 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crottenham (Post 53744453)
It was inevitable I think. The owners must be pretty upset at this development!

Not really, the owners know how stupid this really all is. Picture this, they go on strike, so the player says... I better get training and skating in. Owner says with a big smile... "sorry buddy, I own the arena too" ... Community arena is already sheduled tight no ice time available... hmmm... can you see the ugly picture I'm drawing here? see how this can really hurt the kids?

Crottenham 08-21-2012 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bidzey (Post 53745137)
Not really, the owners know how stupid this really all is. Picture this, they go on strike, so the player says... I better get training and skating in. Owner says with a big smile... "sorry buddy, I own the arena too" ... Community arena is already sheduled tight no ice time available... hmmm... can you see the ugly picture I'm drawing here? see how this can really hurt the kids?

Well, then union has to step up and organize ice time.....that's what union dues and contingency funds are for! If you have the funds, ice time can always be found especially during the day in any city/town in the province!

Owners are too smart to take this lightly me thinks.

Ward Cornell 08-21-2012 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crottenham (Post 53745289)
Well, then union has to step up and organize ice time.....that's what union dues and contingency funds are for! If you have the funds, ice time can always be found especially during the day in any city/town in the province!

Owners are too smart to take this lightly me thinks.

Hopefully this CHLPA doesn't become as radical as the CFLPA! :laugh:

againsttheboards 08-21-2012 08:30 AM

As a parent of a 17 year old player in the OHL, I find it very odd that if this is moving forward, my son has not heard a word about this? His team mates have not mentioned it? His advisor has not mentioned it? Does a Union not need a signed agreement from potential members to move forward, or at least a majority?

I would be very suspicious of the motives behind this 'Union'. I highly doubt it would be for the benefit of the players?

Crottenham 08-21-2012 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ward Cornell (Post 53745347)
Hopefully this CHLPA doesn't become as radical as the CFLPA! :laugh:

Btw, if you think the CHLPA has a case, don't be too surprised if those student/athletes in the NCAA eventually also don't organize themselves. If one is to believe some of the top CHL franchises are making significant net returns off the backs of teenagers, what about the top NCAA programs that annually pull in $60-120M in net revenue, and all their players get is an education package?

Times they are a-changin!!!!!!!!!

P.S. Personally, I'm not a big union guy but I do believe they have their place. Unfortunately, they inevitably cross the line as far as their mandate is concerned.

I can't help but think to some of Tigers1992 comments relative to the disparity between top and lower tiered OHL franchises and how they have treated their players to date. Between the league and those franchises, perhaps if they had a much more uniform approach to ensuring all players were treated top notch across the board, this recent development might have at the very least been delayed?

bidzey 08-21-2012 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by againsttheboards (Post 53745417)
As a parent of a 17 year old player in the OHL, I find it very odd that if this is moving forward, my son has not heard a word about this? His team mates have not mentioned it? His advisor has not mentioned it? Does a Union not need a signed agreement from potential members to move forward, or at least a majority?

I would be very suspicious of the motives behind this 'Union'. I highly doubt it would be for the benefit of the players?

article says if 60% of the kids agree, it's a done deal. I think all the parents should get together and stop this if it's really happening. You guys must've spent thousands and thousand of dollars bringing up your kid to where he is now, and now they are under a threat by business people that are far more interested in money than they are in your child.

Crottenham 08-21-2012 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bidzey (Post 53745529)
article says if 60% of the kids agree, it's a done deal. I think all the parents should get together and stop this if it's really happening. You guys must've spent thousands and thousand of dollars bringing up your kid to where he is now, and now they are under a threat by business people that are far more interested in money than they are in your child.

To be fair, don't kid yourself junior hockey is also a business and CHL team owners are also first and foremost interested in money.....same as advisors, same as potential union organizers, same as advertisers that see the on-ice product as a way to sell more shampoo and cars!

just playing the devil's advocate here.

bidzey 08-21-2012 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crottenham (Post 53745717)
To be fair, don't kid yourself junior hockey is also a business and CHL team owners are also first and foremost interested in money.....same as advisors, same as potential union organizers, same as advertisers that see the on-ice product as a way to sell more shampoo and cars!

just playing the devil's advocate here.

the difference is that the owner and the league need to have the players on the ice for that money to be made. NOT SO for unions. They enventually need to have them play, but meanwhile carreers and lives are being ruined. Your at the most crushial time of your hockey carreer, it's a make or break, and you only have a very, very short time to prove yourself. You can't afford and don't have the time to play business, with unions and politics.

Crottenham 08-21-2012 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bidzey (Post 53745773)
the difference is that the owner and the league need to have the players on the ice for that money to be made. NOT SO for unions. They enventually need to have them play, but meanwhile carreers and lives are being ruined.

I think you are over-stating that careers and lives would be ruined. What would happen if there was let's say a 6 month work stoppage in junior hockey?

NHL teams would end up taking more flyers on kids they have less knowledge on? Some kids that would have been drafted would be free agents? Sounds like the OHL draft where people "sympathize" with draft favours by claiming free agents just have to work harder and would have their pick of which team to go to. Here's a thought, perhaps the NHL pushes that draft class out a year? Who does that hurt?

P.S. You don't think that if there were a CHL work stoppage the Tier 2 leagues on down wouldn't become more "popular?" Where there's a will there's a way. The junior players in my mind are in a much better situation that the ageing pro who loses a year of pro hockey in that income is lost forever and skills are diminished when age is catching up to them. Junior aged players don't have to worry about age-related regression.

bidzey 08-21-2012 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crottenham (Post 53745931)
I think you are over-stating that careers and lives would be ruined. What would happen if there was let's say a 6 month work stoppage in junior hockey?

NHL teams would end up taking more flyers on kids they have less knowledge on? Some kids that would have been drafted would be free agents? Sounds like the OHL draft where people "sympathize" with draft favours by claiming free agents just have to work harder and would have their pick of which team to go to. Here's a thought, perhaps the NHL pushes that draft class out a year? Who does that hurt?

P.S. You don't think that if there were a CHL work stoppage the Tier 2 leagues on down wouldn't become more "popular?" Where there's a will there's a way. The junior players in my mind are in a much better situation that the ageing pro who loses a year of pro hockey in that income is lost forever and skills are diminished when age is catching up to them. Junior aged players don't have to worry about age-related regression.

we could speculate different senarios all day I guess, I just think this is a really bad idea, very bad. Those kids have all the support they need, and the league in a overall general sense have been taking good care of them.

Crottenham 08-21-2012 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bidzey (Post 53745997)
we could speculate different senarios all day I guess, I just think this is a really bad idea, very bad. Those kids have all the support they need, and the league in a overall general sense have been taking good care of them.

You're right re the speculation and multiple scenario's. As stated before I'm generally not a union guy having worked in management since getting out of university. I'll certainly be watching with interest as this whole thing develops. Pretty fascinating frankly.

bidzey 08-21-2012 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crottenham (Post 53745931)
I think you are over-stating that careers and lives would be ruined. What would happen if there was let's say a 6 month work stoppage in junior hockey?

I'll just say one more thing... what if the 6 months are around the Ivan Hlinka Memorial tournament. There were scouts from u-20 there. U-18 only comes once in your life. It has alot of influance of where you rank in the following June NHL draft. This is just one senario. In a really bad case where it's more than 6 months... maybe it wouldn't happen often, but I think it's not an "over-statement" it could be that bad.

Crottenham 08-21-2012 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bidzey (Post 53746517)
I'll just say one more thing... what if the 6 months are around the Ivan Hlinka Memorial tournament. There were scouts from u-20 there. U-18 only comes once in your life. It has alot of influance of where you rank in the following June NHL draft. This is just one senario. In a really bad case where it's more than 6 months... maybe it wouldn't happen often, but I think it's not an "over-statement" it could be that bad.

I suspect a summer tournament wouldn't be affected by any type of work stoppage, but who knows......

Ward Cornell 08-21-2012 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crottenham (Post 53745483)
Btw, if you think the CHLPA has a case, don't be too surprised if those student/athletes in the NCAA eventually also don't organize themselves. If one is to believe some of the top CHL franchises are making significant net returns off the backs of teenagers, what about the top NCAA programs that annually pull in $60-120M in net revenue, and all their players get is an education package?

Times they are a-changin!!!!!!!!!

P.S. Personally, I'm not a big union guy but I do believe they have their place. Unfortunately, they inevitably cross the line as far as their mandate is concerned.

I can't help but think to some of Tigers1992 comments relative to the disparity between top and lower tiered OHL franchises and how they have treated their players to date. Between the league and those franchises, perhaps if they had a much more uniform approach to ensuring all players were treated top notch across the board, this recent development might have at the very least been delayed?

On different boards I've advocated for the NCAA athletes to form a union. It just costs the NCAA a chair and desk in the classroom since the course and professors are already there for the paying students. While the CHL costs for these scholarships is actually a money spent!
In many many ways IMHO the CHL player right now has it leaps and bounds over a NCAA player but it still can be better!
Plus they also have graduated scholarships in the same vein as the CHL Scholarships and can be terminated at any time. While the CHL player gets his education fully secured with "time served" if he doesn't go pro.

btw...I do agree 100% with the rest of your post also!

CharlieGirl 08-21-2012 09:45 AM

I'll get concerned when an actual legitimate player agent is involved in this CHLPA, when a real player is involved (to this point, I've heard that one player from Brampton was contacted and asked to be the OHL union president -- which is wonky all on its own), and when the league has been contacted.

I'll give the group behind this credit -- they have a lot of people talking about something that has very little chance of succeeding.

I'm curious how they expect to get 60% of players to sign on when 50% can't legally sign anything. Funny math, I suppose.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:22 PM.

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com, A property of CraveOnline, a division of AtomicOnline LLC ©2009 CraveOnline Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved.