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MJB Devils23* 08-28-2012 08:29 AM

2012 MLB Thread Part III
 
I still stand behind my comparison.

Nick0930 08-28-2012 08:36 AM

Nova isn't a King though.

MJB Devils23* 08-28-2012 08:41 AM

The media compares players all the time for different reasons. Pedroia has been anointed Boston's Derek Jeter. Jose Tabata has been compared to Manny Ramirez. Jesus Montero has been compared to Mike Piazza. None of these are my comparisons. These comparisons were made by the media. Hell Al Leiter said Cory Lidle was Greg Maddux lite.

Same hometown
Same attributes
Same physique
Same style

All of these are various criteria scouts and media will use to compare players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott04 (Post 53909457)
Looooooool. Seriously. Please tell me you're not serious about any of this. Partly for the sake of humanity, partly because I don't think I could laugh much more before it hurts. Using your limited (and terrible) standards, I could draw a hundred comparison of a great pitcher and a decent one. Cool logic.

Actually, the hilarious thing is that you think their numbers were even close their first 2 years.

Hernandez 2006 12-14, 4.52 ERA, 1.34 WHIP, 8.3 K/9, 2.93 K/BB
Hernandez 2007 14-7, 3.92 ERA, 1.38 WHIP, 7.8 K/9, 3.11 K/BB

Nova 2011 16-4, 3.70 ERA, 1.33 WHIP, 5.3 K/9, 1.72 K/BB
Nova 2012 11-7, 4.92 ERA, 1.46 WHIP, 8.0 K/9, 2.78 K/BB

Hernandez made his debut at 19. Nova at 23. Hernandez improved. Nova regressed. Record isn't an important factor, but is listed above just to show why you would think he's better than King Felix in any regard. OMG HE'S GOT SO MANY MORE WINS, BRAH!

Would be a lot of fun to compare both of them from age 23-25 instead...

Hernandez regressed his sophomore season. 2005 was his rookie season. 2006 was his sophomore season.

Also I said Nova is Hernandez lite. I didn't say Nova was the next Hernandez. Want another one? Ricky Romero is Johan Santana lite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by apice3 (Post 53910903)
And we're done here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DatBoyJPP (Post 53910965)
lol Just look up where they are from. He was 0/2 on that

Quote:

Originally Posted by apice3 (Post 53911019)
:laugh:

Didn't even think about that until you pointed it out. Isn't Felix from Venezuela? No idea about Nova.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DatBoyJPP (Post 53911109)
Yup and Nova is Dominican

Geography fail on my part. I meant to say Latin America.

Scott04 08-28-2012 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJB Devils23 (Post 53914773)
I still stand behind my comparison.

You're still wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJB Devils23 (Post 53914963)
The media compares players all the time for different reasons. Pedroia has been anointed Boston's Derek Jeter. Jose Tabata has been compared to Manny Ramirez. Jesus Montero has been compared to Mike Piazza. None of these are my comparisons. These comparisons were made by the media. Hell Al Leiter said Cory Lidle was Greg Maddux lite.

Same hometown
Same attributes
Same physique
Same style

All of these are various criteria scouts and media will use to compare players.



Hernandez regressed his sophomore season. 2005 was his rookie season. 2006 was his sophomore season.

Also I said Nova is Hernandez lite. I didn't say Nova was the next Hernandez. Want another one? Ricky Romero is Johan Santana lite.









Geography fail on my part. I meant to say Latin America.

You're still wrong again. On everything. If we're going to go with Hernandez's first season as the one where he was around for half the year, then we might as well count Nova's first season as 2010. I'm aware the innings totals weren't the same for each, but that only makes the numbers more lopsided. You're still wrong. You're nowhere near right. You're totally biased. And oh yeah, you're wrong. Ivan Nova and Felix Hernandez are nowhere near similar. Ivan Nova is a lite version of a lite version of a poor man's version of a knock off of Felix Hernandez. That is more accurate than your statement.

MJB Devils23* 08-28-2012 02:11 PM

Delete

MJB Devils23* 08-28-2012 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott04 (Post 53920973)
You're still wrong again. On everything. If we're going to go with Hernandez's first season as the one where he was around for half the year, then we might as well count Nova's first season as 2010. I'm aware the innings totals weren't the same for each, but that only makes the numbers more lopsided. You're still wrong. You're nowhere near right. You're totally biased. And oh yeah, you're wrong. Ivan Nova and Felix Hernandez are nowhere near similar. Ivan Nova is a lite version of a lite version of a poor man's version of a knock off of Felix Hernandez. That is more accurate than your statement.

There are two pitchers. Both Latino. 6"3 and 6"4. 225-230 pounds. Both players stuff wise are identical. Felix Hernandez is simply better. Explain why you're so upset.

What about all the Mets fans saying Valdespin is Cano Lite? Do you agree with that one?

Scott04 08-28-2012 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJB Devils23 (Post 53922255)
Scott, stop looking at their career paths. They are irrelevant.

Then why are you trying to make a point of their stats in the first few years of their career?

MJB Devils23* 08-28-2012 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott04 (Post 53922447)
Then why are you trying to make a point of their stats in the first few years of their career?

I wasn't. I simply was responding to a comment.

Scott04 08-28-2012 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJB Devils23 (Post 53922439)
There are two pitchers. Both Latino. 6"3 and 6"4. 225-230 pounds. Both players stuff wise are identical. Felix Hernandez is simply better. Explain why you're so upset.

What about all the Mets fans saying Valdespin is Cano Lite? Do you agree with that one?

Stuff-wise they are nowhere near identical. That's the problem. You seem to just assume they are comparable when they're not.

And what Mets fans ever said that? Have any of them ever watched baseball?

MJB Devils23* 08-28-2012 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott04 (Post 53922503)
Stuff-wise they are nowhere near identical. That's the problem. You seem to just assume they are comparable when they're not.

And what Mets fans ever said that? Have any of them ever watched baseball?

Just because Felix has better stuff, doesn't mean it's not comparable. I must reiterate what the term "lite" means. I don't anticipate Nova being anywhere near as successful as Felix. He can still be a very good pitcher though.

It was on a Mets message board. It was brought up in a GDT and many other fans agreed basically and they ran with it.

DatBoyJPP 08-28-2012 02:28 PM

Lite implies they are at least comparable. These two are not.

And what the hell are you doing on a Mets board?

Scott04 08-28-2012 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJB Devils23 (Post 53922643)
Just because Felix has better stuff, doesn't mean it's not comparable. I must reiterate what the term "lite" means. I don't anticipate Nova being anywhere near as successful as Felix. He can still be a very good pitcher though.

It was on a Mets message board. It was brought up in a GDT and many other fans agreed basically and they ran with it.

Define many: 3? 4? So just because a few clueless people say something, that means its a generally accepted notion? Does this apply universally throughout the world? If a few people have a crazy, inaccurate idea, its a legitimate thing that should be trusted? Nope. Those people should be criticized for talking out of their ass and having no clue what they're talking about. And that is exactly what is happening right here.

By your logic of how far the term "lite" can be stretched, I might as well consider Ike Davis to be a "lite" version of Prince Fielder because they both hit for power, strike out a lot, aren't overly mobile, favor a beard over a clean shaven look, and were born in the same hemisphere. How does that sound?

Wingman77 08-28-2012 02:45 PM

Marrone a mi

In other news Teixeira will miss at least a week with a calf strain

Rhodes 81 08-28-2012 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJB Devils23 (Post 53923565)
Trout is a Mickey Mantle lite.

i have an autographed picture of mickey mantle hitting his first home run. i keep it in a closet in my basement with a bunch of other things i used to have hanging on my wall. i also have an autographed kovachuk jersey there. mickey mantle is kovalchuk lite.

MJB Devils23* 08-28-2012 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhodes 81 (Post 53925339)
i have an autographed picture of mickey mantle hitting his first home run. i keep it in a closet in my basement with a bunch of other things i used to have hanging on my wall. i also have an autographed kovachuk jersey there. mickey mantle is kovalchuk lite.

I agree.

StvBroDan 08-28-2012 08:38 PM

OK Sor BP good job. Nice job Phil

StvBroDan 08-28-2012 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wingman77 (Post 53923253)
Marrone a mi

In other news Teixeira will miss at least a week with a calf strain

:shakehead old Tex is falling apart

Wingman77 08-28-2012 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StvBroDan (Post 53932213)
:shakehead old Tex is falling apart

He's had a rough year at the plate and health wise

Friggen sitting out a series in April because of a cough....

MJB Devils23* 08-28-2012 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saugus (Post 53934375)
Put it to a vote among baseball fans and you'd see a lot of pushback. Even more among informed fans, and still more among analysts. If you can claim that Nova is Hernandez lite, there's nothing to stop anybody from comparing any schlub to an All-time Great upon similarly spurious reasoning.

There is no set-in-stone criteria to compare players.

Saugus 08-28-2012 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJB Devils23 (Post 53934483)
There is no set-in-stone criteria to compare players.

No, but there is common sense. You need similarities in playing style, background, performance, or career trajectory in order to compare players, or else you're not saying anything meaningful or even logical.

Just about the only things that Hernandez and Nova have in common are that they are both right handed pitchers, both speak Spanish as their first language, and they have a few pitches they both throw (albeit with different frequency and success). That's not enough to make a meaningful comparison by any common sense test, but here you are claiming that Nova is Hernandez lite. It simply does not follow.

MJB Devils23* 08-28-2012 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saugus (Post 53934725)
No, but there is common sense. You need similarities in playing style, background, performance, or career trajectory in order to compare players, or else you're not saying anything meaningful or even logical.

Just about the only things that Hernandez and Nova have in common are that they are both right handed pitchers, both speak Spanish as their first language, and they have a few pitches they both throw (albeit with different frequency and success). That's not enough to make a meaningful comparison by any common sense test, but here you are claiming that Nova is Hernandez lite. It simply does not follow.

Like I said, there's no set-in-stone criteria.

MJB Devils23* 08-28-2012 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DatBoyJPP (Post 53935865)
Then what's your argument? That they both speak Spanish? That's all you have so far.

They also have the same physique. Same pitching motion. Nova's isn't as clean though. Same assortment of pitches. They also throw equally as hard give or take a mph here or there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saugus (Post 53936041)
I wouldn't say Pat is the one reaching here.

Well he's reaching every time he tries to prove I'm a troll. Since I'm not, he's not going to be very successful. Anybody trying to prove me wrong is reaching because it's impossible to prove me wrong. It's impossible for me to prove myself right. That is how opinions work.

Other players have been compared with less similarities than this before. You guys act as if there are certain ways to compare players. In fact, players don't even have to have many similarities to be compared.

When you pit two players against each other, you're comparing them. Ovechkin and Crosby for example.

Sometimes it's based solely on hometown. Bobby Murcer and Mickey Mantle for example.

Sometimes it's purely hype. Gretzky and Crosby for example.

It's not wrong to say Nova reminds me of Felix Hernandez in in fact he does.

In the movie Moneyball, Billy compares Hatteberg to Giambi simply for the fact he isn't a great fielder, but he gets on base a lot. Art Howe thought Billy was crazy for comparing Hatteberg to Giambi.

Saugus 08-28-2012 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJB Devils23 (Post 53936973)
They also have the same physique. Same pitching motion. Nova's isn't as clean though. Same assortment of pitches. They also throw equally as hard give or take a mph here or there.



Well he's reaching every time he tries to prove I'm a troll. Since I'm not, he's not going to be very successful. Anybody trying to prove me wrong is reaching because it's impossible to prove me wrong. It's impossible for me to prove myself right. That is how opinions work.

Other players have been compared with less similarities than this before. You guys act as if there are certain ways to compare players. In fact, players don't even have to have many similarities to be compared.

When you pit two players against each other, you're comparing them. Ovechkin and Crosby for example.

Sometimes it's based solely on hometown. Bobby Murcer and Mickey Mantle for example.

Sometimes it's purely hype. Gretzky and Crosby for example.

It's not wrong to say Nova reminds me of Felix Hernandez in in fact he does.

In the movie Moneyball, Billy compares Hatteberg to Giambi simply for the fact he isn't a great fielder, but he gets on base a lot. Art Howe thought Billy was crazy for comparing Hatteberg to Giambi.

The two bolded sentences would seem to contradict each other, if Nova's delivery isn't as clean, it isn't the same. Half the pitchers in baseball have similar physiques, simply because a certain type tends to reach the majors more often. Throwing hard isn't everything, Felix's control is much better and that's why he's a better pitcher.

Opinions are fine, presenting controversial opinions as facts (as you often do) is inviting criticism.

Making offbeat or unexpected comparisons is fine too, and there's certainly a long history of that, but in this particular case with this particular claim, for the "John Doe-lite" comparison to have any meaning you need to have players that are objectively similar in the first place. Multiple reasonable posters have dissented from your notion that Nova and Hernandez are similar enough to make that comparison, so maybe there's something to it?

To use a hockey example (and an admittedly extreme example), could I seriously say that Wedgewood is Brodeur-lite without being laughed off the board? According to you, yes I could. They're both Canadian, they both came up through the CHL, they're both hybrid goalies, they both like to play the puck, they both catch with the same hand. But they clearly don't compare, because Wedgewood doesn't have nearly the body of work or obvious star future to make that a valid comparison.

MJB Devils23* 08-29-2012 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saugus (Post 53937343)
The two bolded sentences would seem to contradict each other, if Nova's delivery isn't as clean, it isn't the same. Half the pitchers in baseball have similar physiques, simply because a certain type tends to reach the majors more often. Throwing hard isn't everything, Felix's control is much better and that's why he's a better pitcher.

I know Felix is a better pitcher. In fact, in that regard it's not even close. But it's got nothing to do with anything I'm saying. The pitching motions are very similar from the games I've seen. There is a noticeable difference in the delivery, but the motions themselves are pretty similar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saugus (Post 53937343)
Opinions are fine, presenting controversial opinions as facts (as you often do) is inviting criticism.

Making offbeat or unexpected comparisons is fine too, and there's certainly a long history of that, but in this particular case with this particular claim, for the "John Doe-lite" comparison to have any meaning you need to have players that are objectively similar in the first place. Multiple reasonable posters have dissented from your notion that Nova and Hernandez are similar enough to make that comparison, so maybe there's something to it?

None of you might not see what I see. It's understandable. But that could just mean I look for different things. It's all subjective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saugus (Post 53937343)
To use a hockey example (and an admittedly extreme example), could I seriously say that Wedgewood is Brodeur-lite without being laughed off the board? According to you, yes I could. They're both Canadian, they both came up through the CHL, they're both hybrid goalies, they both like to play the puck, they both catch with the same hand. But they clearly don't compare, because Wedgewood doesn't have nearly the body of work or obvious star future to make that a valid comparison.

You absolutely can make a Wedgewood and Marty comparison. Why not? If you watch tape, and they look similar then what is so wrong about saying he reminds you of Marty? Prospects get compared to NHLers all the time.

Saugus 08-29-2012 12:22 AM

If that's not what you're saying, then what the hell does "Nova is Felix-lite" mean? If you're saying there are similarities, what is the purpose of making that comparison if you're not saying they are close in ability? Either it's meaningless, or you are predicting that Nova could become as good as Felix in a couple years.

It's clear we're not going to agree, because I deliberately chose what I believe to be an absurd hockey example and you're calling it reasonable. Saying a prospect reminds you of a star player is one thing, calling him "star player-lite" carries an altogether different connotation, one of prediction. I could say Wedge reminds me of Marty in some ways, and indeed he does. But I'd never say that he's "Brodeur-lite", or that he's a "poor man's Marty", especially not before he's done anything of note as a professional player. That wouldn't make sense.


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