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-   -   Top 25 Swedish Hockey Players of All-Time - #25 - FINAL POLL (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1255163)

kmad 09-03-2012 10:42 PM

Top 25 Swedish Hockey Players of All-Time - #25 - FINAL POLL
 
Who are the top 25 Swedish hockey players of all-time?

1. Nicklas Lidstrom - 73.68%
2. Peter Forsberg - 73.08%
3. Borje Salming - 61.90%
4. Mats Sundin - 61.02%
5. Sven Tumba - 45.45%
6. Henrik Lundqvist - 40.35%
7. Daniel Alfredsson - 57.69%
8. Henrik Zetterberg - 43.18%
9. Henrik Sedin - 52.78%
10. Markus Naslund - 31.43%
11. Daniel Sedin - 43.90%
12. Lennart Svedberg - 25.00%
13. Mats Naslund - 29.27%
14. Hakan Loob - 43.48%
15. Ulf Samuelsson - 43.33%
16. Kent Nilsson - 70.00%
17. Lars-Erik Sjoberg - 18.52%
18. Anders Hedberg - 34.29%
19. Ulf Nilsson - 40.74%
20. Thomas Steen - 30.30% (won tiebreaker)
21. Mattias Ohlund - 30.30% (lost tiebreaker)
22. Kenny Jonsson - 41.67%
23. Ulf Sterner - 28.57%
24. Nicklas Backstrom - 31.25%

kmad 09-03-2012 10:43 PM

After thinking this over for a while I'm going with Calle Johansson for career value.

Hardyvan123 09-03-2012 11:55 PM

went with Sandstrom for the career value.

I love Backstrom but is he really in the top 25 already?

Maybe I'm missing something?

vecens24 09-04-2012 12:05 AM

Okay I'm not going to lie, from what I know about Swedish hockey history it would be an absolute travesty of Honken wasn't on this list. He's one of only three guys to win the Golden Puck twice, won best goaltender at the 1969 Olympics over Dzurilla, and was among the first ten players inducted to the Swedish Hockey Hall of Fame, and is in the IIHF HOF. I just can't see the argument for a guy like Calle Johansson over him in the annals of Swedish hockey history.

I can at least see an argument for Pelle Lindbergh over him if you play the career extrapolation game.

PierreMcGuire* 09-04-2012 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 (Post 54072441)
I love Backstrom but is he really in the top 25 already?

Maybe I'm missing something?

Well Backstrom does has past the 100 point mark in a single season, that is extremely impressive, and holds a ton of weight when ranking him against his fellow countrymen, and while his career has not been long, he has shown to be a better player in his few years in the NHL than others.

Calle Johansson is my vote.

vecens24 09-04-2012 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 23 17 23 (Post 54072921)
Well Backstrom does has past the 100 point mark in a single season, that is extremely impressive, and holds a ton of weight when ranking him against his fellow countrymen, and while his career has not been long, he has shown to be a better player in his few years in the NHL than others.

Calle Johansson is my vote.

I'm sorry but there is literally no way that a guy who never got more than a single vote in a season for an AST or Norris Trophy is deserving of this list over any of the three goaltenders remaining. Absolutely none.

Even if you're simply going by NHL accomplishments, Lindbergh's Vezina is much stronger than anything Johansson did throughout his whole career.

vadim sharifijanov 09-04-2012 01:48 AM

i'm surprised no one has made a case for persson yet. top four d-man on a dynasty, mainstay on the PP. unfortunately, that's basically all i know about him.

Howe Elbows 9 09-04-2012 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov (Post 54074097)
i'm surprised no one has made a case for persson yet. top four d-man on a dynasty, mainstay on the PP. unfortunately, that's basically all i know about him.

I don't think a realistic case can be made for him as the top Swedish player from that era of Islanders history:

Persson:
Stanley Cup champion (1980, 81, 82, 83)
369 points in 622 NHL games (.59 PPG)
Elitserien champion (1976, 77)
World Championship Silver Medal (1977)

Tomas Jonsson:
Stanley Cup champion (1982, 83)
344 points in 552 NHL games (.62 PPG)
Elitserien champion (1979)
World Championship Gold Medal (1991)
Olympic Gold Medal and Triple Gold Club member (1994)
Guldpucken (Elitserien MVP, 1994-1995 season)

jkrx 09-04-2012 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vecens24 (Post 54072741)
Okay I'm not going to lie, from what I know about Swedish hockey history it would be an absolute travesty of Honken wasn't on this list. He's one of only three guys to win the Golden Puck twice, won best goaltender at the 1969 Olympics over Dzurilla, and was among the first ten players inducted to the Swedish Hockey Hall of Fame, and is in the IIHF HOF. I just can't see the argument for a guy like Calle Johansson over him in the annals of Swedish hockey history.

I can at least see an argument for Pelle Lindbergh over him if you play the career extrapolation game.

This whole list is a travesty and extremely modern biased. Also seem very western-canada/Vancouver biased.

ted1971 09-04-2012 01:41 PM

Pelle Lindbergh

kmad 09-04-2012 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 54078471)
This whole list is a travesty and extremely modern biased. Also seem very western-canada/Vancouver biased.

To be fair, if we had it your way it would be extremely biased against the NHL. I'd expect to see someone like Jorgen Jonsson ahead of the Sedins.

begbeee 09-04-2012 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg (Post 54083065)
To be fair, if we had it your way it would be extremely biased against the NHL. I'd expect to see someone like Jorgen Jonsson ahead of the Sedins.

Jorgen Jonsson should be in TOP25. Definitely did more than Backstrom.
It's like... 100 points season in NHL vs (in our case >) Jorgen Jonsson

jkrx 09-04-2012 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg (Post 54083065)
To be fair, if we had it your way it would be extremely biased against the NHL. I'd expect to see someone like Jorgen Jonsson ahead of the Sedins.

Biased against the NHL? I dont value awards or the kind of level people put the NHL on but there is a lot of value there. My guess is that you value the Sedins higher than Mikhailov? Kharlamov? Martinec? Makarov? Where do you draw the line between winning an award vs. pre-NHL play?

As in the Näslund vs. Näslund I valued a conn smythe performance of one of the weakest harts to have ever been awarded in NHL history.

kmad 09-04-2012 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 54085901)
Biased against the NHL? I dont value awards or the kind of level people put the NHL on but there is a lot of value there. My guess is that you value the Sedins higher than Mikhailov? Kharlamov? Martinec? Makarov? Where do you draw the line between winning an award vs. pre-NHL play?

As in the Näslund vs. Näslund I valued a conn smythe performance of one of the weakest harts to have ever been awarded in NHL history.

Markus Naslund's offensive peak is far beyond Mats'. It's not even close.

As for the Sedins vs the legendary Russians, no I don't put them on the same level as Mikhailov, Kharlamov or Makarov, obviously. (I don't know enough about Martinec to make a call on that one)

Though - and you might hate me even more for this - I do value pre-NHL Soviets higher than pre-NHL Swedes, for reasons that should be obvious.

jkrx 09-04-2012 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg (Post 54085961)
Markus Naslund's offensive peak is far beyond Mats'. It's not even close.

As for the Sedins vs the legendary Russians, no I don't put them on the same level as Mikhailov, Kharlamov or Makarov, obviously. (I don't know enough about Martinec to make a call on that one)

Though - and you might hate me even more for this - I do value pre-NHL Soviets higher than pre-NHL Swedes, for reasons that should be obvious.

Because pre-NHL soviets had bigger depth on their teams?

Markus Näslunds offensive peak is not far ahead of Mats and everything else about Mats is far beyond anything Markus brought to the table.

vecens24 09-04-2012 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 54086059)
Because pre-NHL soviets had bigger depth on their teams?

Markus Näslunds offensive peak is not far ahead of Mats and everything else about Mats is far beyond anything Markus brought to the table.

Yeah I can't believe we're having that argument again that Mats Naslund's peak is even close to Markus's. It just isn't jkrx. You can give me the BS about competition, but Markus's three year peak far outstrips Mats' no ifs, ands, or buts about it, even taking more difficult competition into account. Unless you think there were about 10 more players playing during the 80s who were better than the best player during the early 2000s (something that just isn't true), then Markus's peak is better.

I understand Mats having the great playoff run when they won the Cup (I don't see it as a Smythe worthy performance. for instance I see Carbonneau, Roy, and Robinson as being more important in that series at least) but I just can't say that one defining playoff run was more important than what Markus did. I can't do it.

jkrx 09-04-2012 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vecens24 (Post 54086593)
Yeah I can't believe we're having that argument again that Mats Naslund's peak is even close to Markus's. It just isn't jkrx. You can give me the BS about competition, but Markus's three year peak far outstrips Mats' no ifs, ands, or buts about it, even taking more difficult competition into account. Unless you think there were about 10 more players playing during the 80s who were better than the best player during the early 2000s (something that just isn't true), then Markus's peak is better.

I understand Mats having the great playoff run when they won the Cup (I don't see it as a Smythe worthy performance. for instance I see Carbonneau, Roy, and Robinson as being more important in that series at least) but I just can't say that one defining playoff run was more important than what Markus did. I can't do it.

Markus peak years are the three seasons between 01-04. His closest rival in total points that season were Todd Bertuzzi (who played less games than Markus) and in PPG his closest rival were Thornton. How does that stack up vs. Gretzky, Lemieux, Coffey, Nicholls, Kurri, Hawerchuk, Savard, Messier, Stastny, Yzerman and Mullen?

Or have we really come to that point when that group is equal to Bertuzzi, Shanahan, Thornton, Iginla, Demitra, Alfredsson, Hossa, Sundin, Jagr and Sakic?

Not to mention Mats international record which is exceptional compared to Markus. Sorry but I rather have a competitive hard-working defensivebly responsible offensive winger than a guy who just happened to catch a perfect storm for three seasons only to return to being above average.

Not to mention creampuffs like the Sedins.

KRM 09-04-2012 05:38 PM

My top 25 doesn't look anything like the one voted...

vadim sharifijanov 09-04-2012 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 54078471)
This whole list is a travesty and extremely modern biased. Also seem very western-canada/Vancouver biased.

give me a break. vancoucer biased? other than henrik, i didn't vote for a single canuck in the round he won, and in fact i argued vociferously against markus naslund. as far as i can tell, only ms and i are canucks fans (hardy seems to be from ancouver but a canuck hater?) and i didn't see him cheerleading for any canucks either.

and wasn't it you calling for loob and kenta nilsson? i hadother guys ahead of both in the rounds they won.

there was a lot of discussion about canucks because half of the greatest canucks of all time have been swedish.

vadim sharifijanov 09-04-2012 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vecens24 (Post 54086593)
Yeah I can't believe we're having that argument again that Mats Naslund's peak is even close to Markus's. It just isn't jkrx. You can give me the BS about competition, but Markus's three year peak far outstrips Mats' no ifs, ands, or buts about it, even taking more difficult competition into account. Unless you think there were about 10 more players playing during the 80s who were better than the best player during the early 2000s (something that just isn't true), then Markus's peak is better.

I understand Mats having the great playoff run when they won the Cup (I don't see it as a Smythe worthy performance. for instance I see Carbonneau, Roy, and Robinson as being more important in that series at least) but I just can't say that one defining playoff run was more important than what Markus did. I can't do it.

you can give me the bs about how four goal games in february against the oilers being something we should be impressed by, but mats scored 52 playoff points in his three year peak, winning seven rounds and leading his team in scoring the entire way.

jkrx 09-04-2012 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov (Post 54088845)
give me a break. vancoucer biased? other than henrik, i didn't vote for a single canuck in the round he won, and in fact i argued vociferously against markus naslund. as far as i can tell, only ms and i are canucks fans (hardy seems to be from ancouver but a canuck hater?) and i didn't see him cheerleading for any canucks either.

and wasn't it you calling for loob and kenta nilsson? i hadother guys ahead of both in the rounds they won.

there was a lot of discussion about canucks because half of the greatest canucks of all time have been swedish.

I was basing the Vancouver accusation on the 10 or so odd votes the Vancouver players got from user whos never on the board and havent been since. Not on you or MS.

kmad 09-04-2012 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 54089137)
I was basing the Vancouver accusation on the 10 or so odd votes the Vancouver players got from user whos never on the board and havent been since. Not on you or MS.

Where would you rank the Sedins on your personal list?

Hardyvan123 09-04-2012 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 54078471)
This whole list is a travesty and extremely modern biased. Also seem very western-canada/Vancouver biased.

2 things here,

1) Sweden has enjoyed more international success (and is a stronger country compared to 1 and 2 in the world) in more recent times than at any other time.

2) you are either being lazy or ignorant in assuming that all western Canadians think in similar ways (or that they even all come from here originally but that's a moot point anyways).

Maybe you could post your own personal top 25 list and the reasoning behind it as well?

tombombadil 09-04-2012 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 54087489)
Markus peak years are the three seasons between 01-04. His closest rival in total points that season were Todd Bertuzzi (who played less games than Markus) and in PPG his closest rival were Thornton. How does that stack up vs. Gretzky, Lemieux, Coffey, Nicholls, Kurri, Hawerchuk, Savard, Messier, Stastny, Yzerman and Mullen?

Or have we really come to that point when that group is equal to Bertuzzi, Shanahan, Thornton, Iginla, Demitra, Alfredsson, Hossa, Sundin, Jagr and Sakic?

Not to mention Mats international record which is exceptional compared to Markus. Sorry but I rather have a competitive hard-working defensivebly responsible offensive winger than a guy who just happened to catch a perfect storm for three seasons only to return to being above average.

Not to mention creampuffs like the Sedins.

some people here seem to rate everyone higher based on point totals, regardless of era. This horse has been severely beaten to death, over and over - anyone who can't understand goaltending, equipment, training, etc. is free to say insane **** like this.

Yes, being first amongst the second group is far superior to being 10th in the first group. Behind Goulet, behind Jimmy Carson in points per game. Behind Ciccarelli. Compared to ahead of Joe Sakic and Jaromir Jagr, even in points per game? C'mon man.

jkrx 09-04-2012 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tombombadil (Post 54092753)
some people here seem to rate everyone higher based on point totals, regardless of era. This horse has been severely beaten to death, over and over - anyone who can't understand goaltending, equipment, training, etc. is free to say insane **** like this.

Yes, being first amongst the second group is far superior to being 10th in the first group. Behind Goulet, behind Jimmy Carson in points per game. Behind Ciccarelli. Compared to ahead of Joe Sakic and Jaromir Jagr, even in points per game? C'mon man.

Yes, scoring more points than returning from injury and over 33 years of age Sakic and a sulking in Washington Jagr is more impressive than being on par (offensively) with prime Goulet. Besides when he ended up 8th in scoring he were behind the following, Gretzky, Lemieux, Kurri, Coffey, Bossy, Stastny and Savard. I'll say that everyone of them is better than Markus Näslund but I could be wrong.


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