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seventieslord 09-05-2012 11:21 PM

MLD 2012 Montagu Allan QF: Zambia Mania vs. Montreal Orfuns
 
ZAMBIA MANIA


Bun Cook

Thomas Vanek - Paul Haynes - Jimmy Ward
Ed Sandford "A" - Donald Smith - Eddie Wiseman
Steve Sullivan - Charlie Sands - Billy Gilmour
Dan Maloney - Todd Marchant - Jimmy Roberts "A"
Vladimir Zabrodsky
Wildor Larochelle
Rob Niedermayer

Walt Buswell - Mike Green
Miroslav Dvorak - Doug Young "C"
Mark Streit - Scott Hannan
Al Hamilton

Paddy Moran
Reggie Lemelin

PP1: Thomas Vanek - Paul Haynes - Jimmy Ward - Mark Streit - Mike Green
PP2: Ed Sandford - Donald Smith - Eddie Wiseman - Mark Streit/Miroslav Dvorak - Mike Green/Doug Young

PK1: Todd Marchant - Jimmy Roberts - Walt Buswell - Scott Hannan
PK2: Charlie Sands - Steve Sullivan - Miroslav Dvorak - Doug Young
PK3: Paul Haynes - Jimmy Ward

VS:

Montreal Orfuns

Coach - Claude Ruel,
Assistant coach Guy Boucher


Goalies:

Jonathan Quick, Carey Price, Eddie Johnston

Defence:
Rick Green, Erik Karlsson
Don Sweeney, Kris Letang
Brad Marsh "C", Sylvain Cote
Charles Tobin,Bob Murray


Forwards:
Geoff Courtnall - Barry Pederson - Billy Harris
Shayne Corson ''A" - Jordan Staal - Russ Courtnall
Danny Grant - Mike Ridley - Claude Larose "A"
Erik Cole - Robert Lang - Modere "Mud" Bruneteau


PP1 - Geoff Courtnall - Barry Pederson - Billy Harris - Bob Murray - Erik Karlsson.
PP2 - Shayne Corson - Jordan Staal - Russ Courtnall - Don Sweeney - Kris Letang


PK1- Barry Pederson, Billy Harris, Brad Marsh,Sylvain Cote.
PK2 - Jordan Staal,Shayne Corson, Rick Green, Bob Murray.

Canadiens1958 09-06-2012 12:39 PM

Home Team
 
Who is the home team?

Dreakmur 09-06-2012 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 54131725)
Who is the home team?

Zambia Mania

Good luck C1958. I look forward to debating with - and maybe even learning a few things from - a very knowledgable poster.

Canadiens1958 09-06-2012 01:34 PM

Montreal Orfuns Starting Line-up
 
Montreal Orfuns Inaugural Game starting line-up:

Coach - Claude Ruel,
Assistant coach Guy Boucher

Goalies:
Starter - Jonathan Quick,
Back-up - Carey Price,
x - Eddie Johnston

Defence:
Rick Green, Erik Karlsson
Don Sweeney, Kris Letang
Brad Marsh "C", Sylvain Cote
Bob Murray

x - Charles Tobin

Forwards:
Geoff Courtnall - Barry Pederson - Billy Harris
Shayne Corson ''A" - Jordan Staal - Russ Courtnall
Danny Grant - Mike Ridley - Claude Larose "A"
Erik Cole/#1-3 LW - Robert Lang - Erik Cole#1-3 RW
x - Modere "Mud" Bruneteau

PP1 - Geoff Courtnall - Barry Pederson - Billy Harris - Bob Murray - Erik Karlsson.
PP2 - Shayne Corson - Jordan Staal - Russ Courtnall - Don Sweeney - Kris Letang

PK1- Barry Pederson, Billy Harris, Brad Marsh,Sylvain Cote.
PK2 - Jordan Staal,Shayne Corson, Rick Green, Bob Murray.


Notes:
4th line will feature a rotation of #1-3 line wingers with Robert Lang and Erik Cole. RHS defensemen will play in a four man rotation with Bob Murray seeing some RW duty.

TheDevilMadeMe 09-06-2012 01:47 PM

Zambia Mania have three very good defensive centers - Haynes, Sands, and Marchant and we feel comfortable with any of them takin defensive zone draws.

In fact, of the forwards in our starting lineup, only Vanek, Smith, Wiseman, and Maloney don't have strong defensive reputations.

I can see Bun Cook giving Vanek shifts on a lower line for certain offensive zone draws, and giving either Sandford or Sullivan a few shifts on the Haynes line for key defensive zone draws.

Dvorak-Young is our primary shutdown pair and they will be matched as much as possible against Barry Pederson.

Canadiens1958 09-06-2012 03:10 PM

Game Day Line-up
 
Zambia Mania could you provide your game line-up?

seventieslord 09-06-2012 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 54133477)
In fact, of the forwards in our starting lineup, only Vanek, Smith, Wiseman, and Maloney don't have strong defensive reputations.
.

Is Sullivan's really that strong for him to not be included in that list?

seventieslord 09-06-2012 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 54135575)
Zambia Mania could you provide your game line-up?

I believe that is what post 1 is for.

Canadiens1958 09-06-2012 03:39 PM

Post #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 54136097)
I believe that is what post 1 is for.

Post #1 introduces the teams but does not include the scratches, starting goalie, etc. Orfuns listed their later.

vecens24 09-06-2012 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 54136083)
Is Sullivan's really that strong for him to not be included in that list?

I actually believe it is. He is CERTAINLY not a liability there. Even last year as an older, diminished version of himself where he really, really struggled along the boards battling, he was always back in good defensive position for the Pens I thought. He's defintiely a "willing" defensive player who you can count on to be in the right spot. And I imagine he was better when he was in his prime when he had better speed (and quotes we found last year on him bear that out I thought). Like I said though, I wouldn't want to be counting on him to win defensive battles.

Dreakmur 09-06-2012 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 54136185)
Post #1 introduces the teams but does not include the scratches, starting goalie, etc. Orfuns listed their later.

TDMM may have something different in mind, but I think our line-up is staying as it is posted in the OP.

Canadiens1958 09-06-2012 05:27 PM

As Is
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreakmur (Post 54137385)
TDMM may have something different in mind, but I think our line-up is staying as it is posted in the OP.

As is means that the three spare forwards and Al Hamilton are the scratches with Paddy Moran starting in goal?

Dreakmur 09-06-2012 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 54138501)
As is means that the three spare forwards and Al Hamilton are the scratches with Paddy Moran starting in goal?

Yes, sir. Moran is defiantely the starting goalie.

Unless TDMM comes in to veto me, Zabrodsky, Larochelle, Niedermayer, and Hamilton are scratches.

TheDevilMadeMe 09-06-2012 07:00 PM

I don't see any reason to change the starting lineup from what is posted in the OP

I also thought Sullivan's hard work and two-way play were well known. He's a midget, but he's fast and competitive, similar to Martin St Louis or Brian Gionta

I guess "solid defensively" would be a more accurate description of Sullivan than "strong defensively.". His lack of size does limit what he can do

Canadiens1958 09-06-2012 07:47 PM

Size
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 54133477)
Zambia Mania have three very good defensive centers - Haynes, Sands, and Marchant and we feel comfortable with any of them takin defensive zone draws.

In fact, of the forwards in our starting lineup, only Vanek, Smith, Wiseman, and Maloney don't have strong defensive reputations.

I can see Bun Cook giving Vanek shifts on a lower line for certain offensive zone draws, and giving either Sandford or Sullivan a few shifts on the Haynes line for key defensive zone draws.

Dvorak-Young is our primary shutdown pair and they will be matched as much as possible against Barry Pederson.

The Mania does have size issues, especially at center where their four centers are all smaller than the four Orfuns' centers( 5'11"/6'4",6'/6'3") plus with the exception of Marchant they are not elite skaters. The Orfuns have size and speed.

Likewise the Mania wingers - two biggest Maloney and Vanek are not known for defence. The Orfuns' wingers with size(6'+) can play defense. This will be a problem playing against the Orfuns puck moving defensemen.

Interesting match-up that the Mania proposes. Sounds like Claude Julien trying to match Chara against Eric Staal. The Mania does not have the size/reach advantage that Chara did. Pederson is 5'11' same size or slightly bigger than Dvorak/Young. Your other two pairings have Scott Hannan and Mike Green, both 6'1" paired with Streit and Buswell. Hannan can handle a physical forward in the slot or one that crashes the net. but on the Orfuns, the 2nd to 4th lines there are five forwards who will play the slot and/or crash the net. Considering that you have a smallish goalie in Paddy Moran this could be a major issue.

TheDevilMadeMe 09-06-2012 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 54141509)
The Mania does have size issues, especially at center where their four centers are all smaller than the four Orfuns' centers( 5'11"/6'4",6'/6'3") plus with the exception of Marchant they are not elite skaters. The Orfuns have size and speed.

Likewise the Mania wingers - two biggest Maloney and Vanek are not known for defence. The Orfuns' wingers with size(6'+) can play defense. This will be a problem playing against the Orfuns puck moving defensemen.

Interesting match-up that the Mania proposes. Sounds like Claude Julien trying to match Chara against Eric Staal. The Mania does not have the size/reach advantage that Chara did. Pederson is 5'11' same size or slightly bigger than Dvorak/Young. Your other two pairings have Scott Hannan and Mike Green, both 6'1" paired with Streit and Buswell. Hannan can handle a physical forward in the slot or one that crashes the net. but on the Orfuns, the 2nd to 4th lines there are five forwards who will play the slot and/or crash the net. Considering that you have a smallish goalie in Paddy Moran this could be a major issue.



I guess when you draft so many modern players, you can claim to have the size advantage. I guess in your world, Gordie Howe can't be a power forward because he's only 6'0" and Maurice Richard is an absolute weakling...

Seriously though, we need to put players from different eras on a similar playing field, and that includes modern nutrition which has led to humans becoming bigger.

Ed Sandford, for example, was huge for his era.

Other than Steve Sullivan, which Maniacs were small for their era?

Canadiens1958 09-06-2012 08:55 PM

Playing Big
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 54142361)
I guess when you draft so many modern players, you can claim to have the size advantage. I guess in your world, Gordie Howe can't be a power forward because he's only 6'0" and Maurice Richard is an absolute weakling...

Seriously though, we need to put players from different eras on a similar playing field, and that includes modern nutrition which has led to humans becoming bigger.

Ed Sandford, for example, was huge for his era.

Other than Steve Sullivan, which Maniacs were small for their era?

They are all on an equal playing field. Howe and Richard clearly showed during their era that they could play big. As did Dave Keon and Henri Richard, or Aurel Joliat and Larry Aurie, Newsy Lalonde AND Frank Nighbor during their eras. You have to show that your players could play big.

Same for Ed Sandford - Bert Olmstead very lite, much lower peak and nowhere near the longevity. Claude Larose had a better peak and longevity than Sandford.

TheDevilMadeMe 09-06-2012 09:17 PM

Here are some Dvorak videos

Here's a video of him hip checking Valeri Kharlamov while still in Czechoslovakia:


Here's a video of him fighting Terry Ruskowski as a Flyer:


I think he'll be fine against Barry Pederson of all people

TheDevilMadeMe 09-06-2012 09:19 PM

Sandford might be Olmstead very-lite but to claim he peaked lower than Larose is pretty wild

Canadiens1958 09-06-2012 09:46 PM

Larose vs Sandford
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 54143751)
Sandford might be Olmstead very-lite but to claim he peaked lower than Larose is pretty wild

Sandford peaked at 16 goals and 47 points. Larose had seven seasons over 16 goals and peaked at 29 with a career high of 62 points in 67 games, while rarely playing with a first line center or getting first line minutes and PP opportunities.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...laroscl01.html

Ed Sanford:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...sandfed01.html

Dreakmur 09-06-2012 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 54143137)
They are all on an equal playing field. Howe and Richard clearly showed during their era that they could play big. As did Dave Keon and Henri Richard, or Aurel Joliat and Larry Aurie, Newsy Lalonde AND Frank Nighbor during their eras. You have to show that your players could play big.

That doesn't just apply to little guys. Big guys have to play big too. What has Jordan Staal done to show he plays big? He uses his reach very well, but he doesn't use his size nearly as well as a guy of his frame should.

Both Haynes and Smith, on the other hand, have documented fights and stick-swinging duels. Haynes was also a champion boxer, so it's pretty clear he could handle himself. It's all in their profiles.

If you lined up Paul Haynes, Don Smith, Charlie Sands, and Todd Marchant head to head against Barry Pederson, Jordan Staal, Mike Ridley, and Robert Lang, I think you'd have a hard time convicing anybody that either group was going to be pushing anybody around. The Zambia forwards are smaller, but they are also a lot tougher and grittier.

Quote:

Same for Ed Sandford - Bert Olmstead very lite, much lower peak and nowhere near the longevity. Claude Larose had a better peak and longevity than Sandford.
Sandford was a 2nd Team All-Star, and played in 4 EARNED all-star games.

Larose was never a post-season All-Star, and has only one EARNED all-star game, right?

Quote:

Sandford peaked at 16 goals and 47 points. Larose had seven seasons over 16 goals and peaked at 29 with a career high of 62 points in 67 games, while rarely playing with a first line center or getting first line minutes and PP opportunities.
Low-scoring era vs. high-scoring era.

Also, and even more importantly, offense is not the only thing these guys bring to the table. In fact, it's probably their least important attribute here.

Dreakmur 09-06-2012 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 54141509)
The Mania does have size issues, especially at center where their four centers are all smaller than the four Orfuns' centers( 5'11"/6'4",6'/6'3")

As I said in the other post, you have to use the size effectively to put it to good use.

As for the actual size, you can't compare guys from the 1990s to guys from the 1920s. Size is relative. This is a good time to use our adjusted size chart. It's not an exact science, but it should help here.

Paul Haynes was 5'10" and 160 lbs, and was born in 1910. His adjusted size woud be 6'1" and 190 lbs.

Don Smith was 5'7" and 160 lbs, and was born 1888. His adjusted size would be 6'0" and 200 lbs.

Charlie Sands was 5'9" and 160 lbs, and was born in 1911. His adjusted size would be 6'0" and 190 lbs..

Todd Marchant is modern, so no need to adjust his 5'10" and 180 lbs.

Paul Haynes, Don Smith, and Charlie Sands were all about average for their era, so thay should be considered average in the ATD. Same goes for both Barry Pederson and Mike Ridley. All 5 of these centers are about the same size here (about 6' and about 200 lbs). Todd Marchant is smaller. Jordan Staal and Robert Lang are bigger.

As I said before, though, size only matters if it gets used. Montreal has the size edge, but Zambia has the toughness, aggressiveness, and grit edges. I realize there is more to hockey than fighting, but just to demonstrate my point.... if our centers had a 4 on 4 brawl, Zambia's smaller foursome would easily come out on top.

Quote:

plus with the exception of Marchant they are not elite skaters. The Orfuns have size and speed.
Again, there's quite a bit of docmented evidence than Paul Haynes and Don Smith were excellent skaters (both fast and quick).

Quote:

Likewise the Mania wingers - two biggest Maloney and Vanek are not known for defence. The Orfuns' wingers with size(6'+) can play defense. This will be a problem playing against the Orfuns puck moving defensemen.
The best way to counter puck-moving defensemen is to pressude them with an aggressive forecheck. Our team is built for that - we have a lot of quick and aggressive forwards. Since your puck-moving defensemen are rather small, huge forecheckers are not really necessary to knock them off the puck.

Quote:

Interesting match-up that the Mania proposes. Sounds like Claude Julien trying to match Chara against Eric Staal. The Mania does not have the size/reach advantage that Chara did. Pederson is 5'11' same size or slightly bigger than Dvorak/Young. Your other two pairings have Scott Hannan and Mike Green, both 6'1" paired with Streit and Buswell. Hannan can handle a physical forward in the slot or one that crashes the net. but on the Orfuns, the 2nd to 4th lines there are five forwards who will play the slot and/or crash the net. Considering that you have a smallish goalie in Paddy Moran this could be a major issue.
First of all, we don't really need to match anybody against Jordan Staal. He's not even close to a significant offensive threat.

Doug Young was 5'10" and 190 lbs, and Walt Buswell was 5'11" and 170 lbs, and they both played in the 1930s. The average size back then was probably 5'8" or 5'9" and 160-170 lbs. Doug Young was a little taller than average, but quite a bit thicker. Walt Buswell was about average weight, but quite tall. Mike Green, Miroslav Dvorak, and Scott Hannan are all around average size. Green and Streit defiantely won't be clearing creases, but the rest are fine or better. Buswell is kind of lanky, so he's not built for it, but he was a great defensive guy, so he'd be solid. Dvorak, Young, and Hannan are all powerfully built guys, and will have no issue moving bodies around.

Furthermore, our "smallish" goalie was actually huge for his era. 5'11" in 1902 is like 6'4" or 6'5" today. Not only is our goalie nothing close to small, he's also vicious... we're talking Brian Hextall style crease-clearing.

Canadiens1958 09-06-2012 11:26 PM

Discipline
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreakmur (Post 54144975)
That doesn't just apply to little guys. Big guys have to play big too. What has Jordan Staal done to show he plays big? He uses his reach very well, but he doesn't use his size nearly as well as a guy of his frame should.

Both Haynes and Smith, on the other hand, have documented fights and stick-swinging duels. Haynes was also a champion boxer, so it's pretty clear he could handle himself. It's all in their profiles.

If you lined up Paul Haynes, Don Smith, Charlie Sands, and Todd Marchant head to head against Barry Pederson, Jordan Staal, Mike Ridley, and Robert Lang, I think you'd have a hard time convicing anybody that either group was going to be pushing anybody around. The Zambia forwards are smaller, but they are also a lot tougher and grittier.



Sandford was a 2nd Team All-Star, and played in 4 EARNED all-star games.

Larose was never a post-season All-Star, and has only one EARNED all-star game, right?




Low-scoring era vs. high-scoring era.

Also, and even more importantly, offense is not the only thing these guys bring to the table. In fact, it's probably their least important attribute here.

So you admit that two of your centers lack discipline and control under pressure. Stick swinging is not a sign of toughness or grit. PK better be strong.

Larose played in four ASGs while Sandford played in five with one 2nd team AST nomination. Larose played RW where AST quality depth was plentiful. Sandford was a rare RHS/LW who had a 2nd team nomination.

Best season to best season we are looking at 4.8TG/G vs 5.81TG/G
which leaves Sandford short of Larose. O6 era Larose had better seasons at a younger age than Sandford did.

Still you are faced with a situation that my 3rd line RW brings more or the same as your 2nd line LW.

With Pittsburgh Jordan Staal never had wingers that could play to his size advantage offensively, with the Orfuns he has Corson on LW who can work the offensive boards and corners. On RW he has Russ Courtnall a lead winger and a playmaker - 2 seasons of 40+ assists and 2 seasons of 50+ assists.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...courtru01.html

Staal's defensive game is not in doubt.

vecens24 09-06-2012 11:35 PM

I'm actually going to stick up for Staal here, Dreakmur. He doesn't play "physical" as far as outwardly hitting people, but he is absolutely in my opinion one of the strongest players along the boards in the NHL. He plays very physical without thunderous hits I guess is kind of my point.

But yeah I certainly do agree with your last point. There is no reason to be worried about "matching up" someone with Staal offensively at this level. I would want someone with a little size out there that can handle battles along the boards against him, but it doesn't have to be someone outwardly physical, and even if you don't have that guy I can't say that I'd be concerned about his offensive ability either way.

Dreakmur 09-07-2012 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 54146565)
So you admit that two of your centers lack discipline and control under pressure. Stick swinging is not a sign of toughness or grit. PK better be strong.

Yes, Paul Haynes and his career high of 27 PIMs and 164 total career PIMs shows a clear lack of discipline.

Furthermore, defending yourself in a brawl isn't the same as lack of disipline. Both of their "duels" were with noted goons.

Quote:

Larose played in four ASGs while Sandford played in five with one 2nd team AST nomination. Larose played RW where AST quality depth was plentiful. Sandford was a rare RHS/LW who had a 2nd team nomination.
Larose played in 2 of his 4 All-Star games because he played for the Canadiens. Like one of Sandford's, these are basically worthless.

For Larose's actual EARNED all-stars, he was in the much weaker West division, which was equally represented. There were some very good RWs in Larose's time but he never competed for votes with those guys. Here are the All-Star RWs from Larose's divison in his 2 All-Star games:
1969 - Ken Schinkel, Bill Hicke, and Jimmy Roberts.
1970 - Bill Goldsworthym, Jimmy Roberts, Gary Sabourin, Frank St. Marseille.

I'm sure people must be wondering who the LWs were in the early 50s who Sandford competed with for his 4 EARNED all-star teams.... here are a few good guys off the top of my head... Ted Lindsay, Dickie Moore, Doug Bentley, Sid Smith, Harry Watson, and Dean Prentice.

Quote:

With Pittsburgh Jordan Staal never had wingers that could play to his size advantage offensively, with the Orfuns he has Corson on LW who can work the offensive boards and corners. On RW he has Russ Courtnall a lead winger and a playmaker - 2 seasons of 40+ assists and 2 seasons of 50+ assists.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...courtru01.html
There's a big difference between 40 assists in the 1920s, the 1950s, the 1990s, and the 2000s. Raw point totals are basically irrelevant in this setting. Where they placed vs their peers is what matters.

Shane Corson's 31 goal season in 1990 is a good example. It sound way better than Ed Sandford's 16 goals in 1949. Look at it in context, and Sandford's season was actually better.

Corson was 44th in goals, and had 50% as many as 2nd place Steve Yzerman.
Sandford was 23rd in goals, and had 62% as many as 2nd place Ted Lindsay.

Quote:

Staal's defensive game is not in doubt.
That's true, but I never questioned his defensive game. I said he was not an offensive threat, and he's not. That's why he should be used in a defensive role.

He is not equiped to handle top-6 duty. He is basically a zero in terms if playmaking, and his best goalscoring percentages are 58, 50, 48, 41


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