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-   -   MLD 2012 Montagu Allan Semifinal: Zambia Mania vs. Lokomotif Yaroslavl (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1261165)

seventieslord 09-17-2012 10:06 AM

MLD 2012 Montagu Allan Semifinal: Zambia Mania vs. Lokomotif Yaroslavl
 
ZAMBIA MANIA


Bun Cook

Thomas Vanek - Paul Haynes - Jimmy Ward
Ed Sandford "A" - Donald Smith - Eddie Wiseman
Steve Sullivan - Charlie Sands - Billy Gilmour
Dan Maloney - Todd Marchant - Jimmy Roberts "A"
Vladimir Zabrodsky
Wildor Larochelle
Rob Niedermayer

Walt Buswell - Mike Green
Miroslav Dvorak - Doug Young "C"
Mark Streit - Scott Hannan
Al Hamilton

Paddy Moran
Reggie Lemelin

PP1: Thomas Vanek - Paul Haynes - Jimmy Ward - Mark Streit - Mike Green
PP2: Ed Sandford - Donald Smith - Eddie Wiseman - Mark Streit/Miroslav Dvorak - Mike Green/Doug Young

PK1: Todd Marchant - Jimmy Roberts - Walt Buswell - Scott Hannan
PK2: Charlie Sands - Steve Sullivan - Miroslav Dvorak - Doug Young
PK3: Paul Haynes - Jimmy Ward

VS:

LOKOMOTIF YAROSLAVL

coach Bob Hartley

Doc Romnes - Andy Blair - Robert McDougall
Don Lever (A) - Daniel Brière - Tony Gingras
Terry Ruskowski (A) - Bobby Carpenter - Pat Flatley
Steve Konowalchuk - Keith Acton - Randy McKay
Jack Findlay - Viktor Zhluktov - Bruce Ridpath

Howard McNamara (C)- Moose Goheen
Igor Romishevsky - Bill Juzda
Bob Rouse - Barney Holden
Joe Reekie

Johnny Mowers
Bert Lindsay

tarheelhockey 09-17-2012 11:45 AM

This should be a really good series. A high-end goalie is going to get knocked out of the playoffs here.

seventieslord 09-17-2012 12:04 PM

Quote:

He led the Devils in playoff goals to the franchise's first Stanley Cup...
This is news to me.

Quote:

He also had six goals, nine points in the team's 2001 cup run before being injured in the finals, sidelining that year's co-leader among power play goal scorers in New Jersey
If he was the co-leader of the team with 2 whole PP goals over 18-19 playoff games, it would really not be significant.

But he wasn't. Heading into the finals, Arnott had 4 PPG and Elias had 3.

McKay's value to a team is well-known. he was a policeman that could play (and credit to you for taking him over a couple of your other recent favourites). But supporting him with dubious cherrypicked offensive stats does nothing for him.

tarheelhockey 09-17-2012 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 54397341)
This is news to me.

Yeah, I'd think most of us know that was Claude Lemieux without having to look it up. The guy won the Smythe for a reason.

VanIslander 09-17-2012 02:41 PM

Bio fixed.

Indeed, Randy McKay was a leader not the leader in goals in their first cup win: he had 8 goals in the 1995 Stanley Cup playoffs, 2nd in goals to Claude on the Devils.

And in the year after they won their second Stanley Cup he was the team's co-leader in powerplay goals with 12 in the regular season, sidelined by injury in the Stanley Cup Finals after 2 playoff goals, 6 goals that postseason in all.

The point is: he was a significant secondary scorer, a guy who provided some clutch scoring as a role player on the powerplay as well as bottom-6 role. That point stands. He shall do quite well in a 4th line role for Lokomotiv, playing behind MLD-voted all-star Flatley on the right side of the bottom 6.

VanIslander 09-17-2012 03:07 PM

Yaroslavl will dress 7 defensemen for this series.

Konowalchuk will sit, and Joe Reekie will play, bringing his size, defensive savvy, grit and experience against the opposition's best into another playoff contest, as he did as one of the leaders in Washington in their Stanley Cup Finals run.

Quote:

Reekie's stock and trade has been clearing creases and killing penalties. He has been a coach's dream in that he keeps the game incredibly simple. He never wanders too far away from his own blueline and he keeps opponents honest as they venture near his crease.
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=11355

seventieslord 09-17-2012 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanIslander (Post 54402033)
Yaroslavl will dress 7 defensemen for this series.

Konowalchuk will sit, and Joe Reekie will play, bringing his size, defensive savvy, grit and experience against the opposition's best into another playoff contest, as he did as one of the leaders in Washington in their Stanley Cup Finals run.


http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=11355

I don't want to look like I'm nitpicking (because I'm not) or that I'm not a Reekie fan (because I am) but where do you get that he played against the opposition's best? His relatively low icetime and high adjusted +/- tells the tale of a guy who was dominant defensively against 2nd and 3rd lines.

Dreakmur 09-17-2012 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanIslander (Post 54401341)
Bio fixed.

Indeed, Randy McKay was a leader not the leader in goals in their first cup win: he had 8 goals in the 1995 Stanley Cup playoffs, 2nd in goals to Claude on the Devils.

And in the year after they won their second Stanley Cup he was the team's co-leader in powerplay goals with 12 in the regular season, sidelined by injury in the Stanley Cup Finals after 2 playoff goals, 6 goals that postseason in all.

The point is: he was a significant secondary scorer, a guy who provided some clutch scoring as a role player on the powerplay as well as bottom-6 role. That point stands. He shall do quite well in a 4th line role for Lokomotiv, playing behind MLD-voted all-star Flatley on the right side of the bottom 6.

Randy McKay is the kind of 4th liner I like. He brings a good amount of toughness, and he's got enough skill and defensive awareness that he's not going to be a liability. Having said that, I wouldn't be counting on him to contribute offensively here. The same should be said for Dan Maloney on Zambia - he brings toughness, and he's not a talentless goon, but he's not likely to score much at this level of competition.

TheDevilMadeMe 09-17-2012 04:29 PM

Who will sit for Joe Reekie and how will the forwards be rolled?

seventieslord 09-17-2012 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreakmur (Post 54403585)
Randy McKay is the kind of 4th liner I like. He brings a good amount of toughness, and he's got enough skill and defensive awareness that he's not going to be a liability. Having said that, I wouldn't be counting on him to contribute offensively here. The same should be said for Dan Maloney on Zambia - he brings toughness, and he's not a talentless goon, but he's not likely to score much at this level of competition.

I agree.

Although - it may surprise you to see that Maloney's ES scoring stats are quite impressive. That said, i doubt anyone thinks it was his doing, when he spent a number of seasons riding shotgun for star players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 54404195)
Who will sit for Joe Reekie

He said Konowalchuk

vecens24 09-17-2012 06:02 PM

I'm just going to throw out there again that Zambia is another fast forward crew that should skate figurative circles around that defense of Yaroslavl.

Dreakmur 09-17-2012 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vecens24 (Post 54406279)
I'm just going to throw out there again that Zambia is another fast forward crew that should skate figurative circles around that defense of Yaroslavl.

Not that it matters, since I can't vote on this series anyway, but I would need to be convinced that Yaroslav doesn't have one of the weakest bluelines in this draft.

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 54405259)
I agree.

Although - it may surprise you to see that Maloney's ES scoring stats are quite impressive. That said, i doubt anyone thinks it was his doing, when he spent a number of seasons riding shotgun for star players.



He said Konowalchuk

Yeah, I do think Maloney is a bit better offensively than McKay. Unfortunately, McKay is quite a bit better in terms of defense and leadership. McKay is an elite 4th liner here, whereas Maloney is merely a good one.

vecens24 09-17-2012 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreakmur (Post 54407801)
Not that it matters, since I can't vote on this series anyway, but I would need to be convinced that Yaroslav doesn't have one of the weakest bluelines in this draft.

They absolutely have one of the weakest bluelines in the draft. A top pairing DMan who played forward for most of his career, no offense from the blue line, and a legitimately slow, plodding defense. It just.....isn't good. There really isn't a way around it.

Dreakmur 09-17-2012 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vecens24 (Post 54408359)
They absolutely have one of the weakest bluelines in the draft. A top pairing DMan who played forward for most of his career, no offense from the blue line, and a legitimately slow, plodding defense. It just.....isn't good. There really isn't a way around it.

Which one are you talking about? I'm pretty sure McNamara and Goheen both played significant time at forward.

vecens24 09-17-2012 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreakmur (Post 54409269)
Which one are you talking about? I'm pretty sure McNamara and Goheen both played significant time at forward.

No I actually looked into McNamara. As far as I could find in google news archives I couldn't find him playing forward once. I actually thought he did too but I don't believe he did as far as I could tell. I actually think he's a legitimate top 4 defenseman in this thing if you pair him with someone who can move the puck and skate.

Goheen is who I was talking about. seventies definitely thinks he played mostly forward.

Dreakmur 09-17-2012 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vecens24 (Post 54409333)
No I actually looked into McNamara. As far as I could find in google news archives I couldn't find him playing forward once. I actually thought he did too but I don't believe he did as far as I could tell. I actually think he's a legitimate top 4 defenseman in this thing if you pair him with someone who can move the puck and skate.

Here's the quote that scared me off...
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Toronto World – February 9th, 1915
Howard McNamara is now a full-fledged forward. The big fellow made good t Quebec up on the front line and will likely get a chance against the Ottawa team as forward tomorrow.

That's why I was hoping VI would do a bio on McNamara, and figure out how much he played where.


And this quote didn't help either...
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Montreal Gazette – January 20th, 1913
It has been said that Howard McNamara would “stop” if subjected to hard body-checking. The champions tried it and gave the big fellow a severe grueling, but he took all that was given him without losing his effectiveness.


Dreakmur 09-17-2012 10:44 PM

First Lines: Thomas Vanek-Paul Haynes-Jimmy Ward vs. Doc Romnes-Andy Blair-Robert McDougall

Well, the only guys who are even remotely comparable here are Doc Romnes and Paul Haynes. Since they are both serving as their lines' primary playmaker, it's fair to compare them.

Haynes
Point Finishes - 4th, 9th, 12th
Assist Finishes - 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 7th, 13th

Point Percentages – 93, 86, 70, 60, 58
Assist Percentages – 100, 93, 81, 73, 67

Romnes
Point Finishes - 4th, 18th, 19th
Assist Finishes - 3rd, 4th, 7th, 15th

Point Percentages - 95, 64, 63, 52, 51, 50
Assist Percentages - 96, 81, 70, 61, 52


Haynes has the regular season offensive edge, but Romnes has a pretty good edge in play-off scoring, so I think it's probably fair to say these two are about equal in offensive ability for this series. While Romnes is solid defensively, it looks like Haynes will have a small edge in defensive ability and toughness. The gap here is small.

Robert McDoughall and Thomas Vanek are the primary goalscorers for their line. This is a tough comparison, since their careers are separated by nearly 100 years. McDougall has just 3 meaningful scoring seasons - 1st, 3rd, and 3rd - but how does that compare to Vanek's 5th, 5th, 13th, 14th in the modern era? I'm quite confident in saying Vanek is the better scorer, but I'm not really sure by how much.

Jimmy Ward and Andy Blair are the respective glue-guys. Neither guy is really elite in terms of corner work, but both guys can get the job done. Asside from playing defense in Chicago, I'm not really sure how good Blair was defensively. We know Ward was very good defensively, so unless some very strong evidence is presented for Blair, Ward should be considered to be quite a bit better defensively. Offensively, Blair only has one significant season. He was 3rd in points, but that was the only top-20 of his career. Ward didn't have the same peak, he was a considtently good scorer, which I think puts him ahead of Blair. This is the big gap on these lines - Jimmy Ward is much better than Andy Blair.

Hawkman 09-17-2012 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vecens24 (Post 54408359)
They absolutely have one of the weakest bluelines in the draft. A top pairing DMan who played forward for most of his career, no offense from the blue line, and a legitimately slow, plodding defense. It just.....isn't good. There really isn't a way around it.

Agreed.

seventieslord 09-17-2012 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreakmur (Post 54413573)
Robert McDoughall and Thomas Vanek are the primary goalscorers for their line. This is a tough comparison, since their careers are separated by nearly 100 years.

Over 100 years, I thought!

seventieslord 09-17-2012 11:11 PM

Unless I come back and say otherwise, please forget I ever said Moose Goheen was a forward. I'm still looking for whatever evidence I found a couple years back. Apparently it is pretty hard to find. Which is weird, because I remember it being pretty overwhelming. but all I've found so far is evidence of him as a forward. I could be 100% wrong here.

edit: OK, SIHR has him as a RW, and they have his scoring stats year by year. A lot of times he was way too high in league scoring to be a defenseman, with way too many goals per assist. And, they have full all-star teams for many of those years, and he wasn't on them (he would have been if he was a defensemen)

that's the case I have so far. and it's not airtight, I realize.

vecens24 09-17-2012 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 54414415)
Unless I come back and say otherwise, please forget I ever said Moose Goheen was a forward. I'm still looking for whatever evidence I found a couple years back. Apparently it is pretty hard to find. Which is weird, because I remember it being pretty overwhelming. but all I've found so far is evidence of him as a forward. I could be 100% wrong here.

edit: OK, SIHR has him as a RW, and they have his scoring stats year by year. A lot of times he was way too high in league scoring to be a defenseman, with way too many goals per assist. And, they have full all-star teams for many of those years, and he wasn't on them (he would have been if he was a defensemen)

that's the case I have so far. and it's not airtight, I realize.

Here's an article that actually says he was a C for the 1920 Olympics:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...e+goheen&hl=en

And another article from 1922 saying he "cavorts the centre ice for the Saints."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...e+goheen&hl=en

TheDevilMadeMe 09-17-2012 11:58 PM

SIHR's positional listings are very unreliable for early players - I wouldn't put much, if any, stock into them.

Those newspaper articles are quite meaningful though

vecens24 09-18-2012 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 54415289)
SIHR's positional listings are very unreliable for early players - I wouldn't put much, if any, stock into them.

Those newspaper articles are quite meaningful though

Basically what I've found so far is a lot of stuff that retroactively puts him as a defenseman that made insane rushes (either 1944 or his HHOF induction in 1952 mostly), and then not much from his actual playing days listing his position as far as google archives.

TheDevilMadeMe 09-18-2012 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vecens24 (Post 54415371)
Basically what I've found so far is a lot of stuff that retroactively puts him as a defenseman that made insane rushes (either 1944 or his HHOF induction in 1952 mostly), and then not much from his actual playing days listing his position as far as google archives.

In the 40s and 50s, there had to be a lot of people who saw and remembered him play a few decades prior. So I wouldn't take those reports that lightly.

vecens24 09-18-2012 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 54415485)
In the 40s and 50s, there had to be a lot of people who saw and remembered him play a few decades prior. So I wouldn't take those reports that lightly.

See I thought about that. That makes sense to me.

Then I kinda thought about the fact that Goheen played in America and never played in the NHL. How many people do we think saw him actually play? I take the 1920 C quote seriously because more people would have seen him playing during the Olympics I'd think than in his regular league. But maybe those quotes from 1952 do carry more weight than I would think. I'm not sure where to go from there.

For whatever it's worth (probably nothing), hockey-reference has him listed as a LW. So this is pretty much all over the board everywhere.


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