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-   -   idle thoughts:did parise,suter and weber know there was going to be a lockout (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1266681)

predfan98 10-03-2012 10:10 AM

idle thoughts:did parise,suter and weber know there was going to be a lockout
 
I have to wonder how much the NHLPA was doing to prepare players for the lockout. What kind of "advance planning and knowledge" did all these players and their agents have before July1st?

Was this thing so written in stone(Lockout) at the highest levels that people there all knew this was coming? Was the NHLPA so readable for these agents getting these deals?

gulp, were the fans the only ones who thought people might be negotiating in good faith?

Granted these were high level FA's out there this year...... but these seem to be unprecedented front end loaded "signing bonus" .....all in the summer before a lockout!

I guess the combination of knowledge of a lockout, plus the liarpold and schneider effect was a just a perfect storm.....

Seems to be a little too coincidental for my taste........

I'm just sorry for the rest of the players that wanted to play. (apparently #20 who shall not be named skated a few days last week with teammates and is going home to hunt in Wisc for the fall....)

This post is just idle speculation and thoughts.... no knowledge...
Since there is no hockey, thought it might be amusing to see other peoples thoughts........if there is anyone here anymore.

KevFist 10-03-2012 10:32 AM

Of course they knew. that's why everyone went for these crazy contracts.

predfan98 10-03-2012 10:44 AM

so if the players and the nhlpa knew there was going to be a lockout at the beginning of the summer---------the high paid ufa's got there $$...

but for the majority of the nhl players--- this lost year is significant for them in terms of their career and earning potential.......

i don't get how they are all just sheep, following what is best for the few?

and it really is infuriating as a fan. i don't see how any fan can be for the players and nhlpa if there was never any intention of bargaining.... if they were all convinced there was going to be a lockout in early summer.

Joe T Choker 10-03-2012 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by predfan98 (Post 54737359)
so if the players and the nhlpa knew there was going to be a lockout at the beginning of the summer---------the high paid ufa's got there $$...

but for the majority of the nhl players--- this lost year is significant for them in terms of their career and earning potential.......

i don't get how they are all just sheep, following what is best for the few?

and it really is infuriating as a fan. i don't see how any fan can be for the players and nhlpa if there was never any intention of bargaining.... if they were all convinced there was going to be a lockout in early summer.

they were duped during the last lockout ... had to give back 24% of their paychecks AND agree to a hard cap.

predfan98 10-03-2012 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoarding Assets (Post 54737439)
they were duped during the last lockout ... had to give back 24% of their paychecks AND agree to a hard cap.

i'm sorry, but the argument that "the last time we negotiated we got a bad deal" isn't a really valid reason to throw thousands of people out of jobs (at or around arenas), plan to have a lockout, and never really plan to have any valid negotiation at all.

it's kind of like "we're kids let's take our toys and go home and have a tantrum and expect other people to clean up"

and it makes all their "we love our fans and just want to play our frozen pond game" videos and tweets come across as totally ridiculous......

KevFist 10-03-2012 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by predfan98 (Post 54737359)
so if the players and the nhlpa knew there was going to be a lockout at the beginning of the summer---------the high paid ufa's got there $$...

but for the majority of the nhl players--- this lost year is significant for them in terms of their career and earning potential.......

i don't get how they are all just sheep, following what is best for the few?

and it really is infuriating as a fan. i don't see how any fan can be for the players and nhlpa if there was never any intention of bargaining.... if they were all convinced there was going to be a lockout in early summer.

It does seem a bit dumb, but if you were a UFA and you saw that a new CBA was probably going to have more strict terms than the old agreement, you'da probably made a cash grab as well. I know I would.

That being said, I've thought about the situation a lot. I fault the owners for allowing 10 year $100,000,000 contracts to happen and rediculous signing bonuses. Once that Pandora's box is open, it's difficult to close...

however....

I DO have to side with the owners and not the NHLPA on this whole thing. The owners are putting their money up and taking the risks. Yeah, the players can get hurt and yadda yadda, but it's the owners who pay to take care of it when they get hurt....It's the owners who lose money when those players can't play. If the owners want more cost certainty, I'm fine with it. Players shouldn't be getting over 50% of revenue anyway. Plus, I believe the players entered CBA negotiations with bad faith anyway.

lstcyr 10-03-2012 12:11 PM

Might it be possible that the NHLPA knew there would be a lockout because the owners were trying to stick it to the players? There's two sides to this. I think the players are willing to compromise but there's little to indicate that the owners are interested in anything except reducing what they pay the players.

predfan98 10-03-2012 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lstcyr (Post 54738899)
Might it be possible that the NHLPA knew there would be a lockout because the owners were trying to stick it to the players? There's two sides to this. I think the players are willing to compromise but there's little to indicate that the owners are interested in anything except reducing what they pay the players.



so, you're saying the nhlpa refused to come to the table until august because they "knew" the owners were trying to stick it to the players...


there's little to indicate the nhlpa is interested in anything.....except a lockout

Legionnaire11 10-03-2012 02:38 PM

I wouldn't say they knew there was going to be a lockout. Everyone from owners, players and fans expected that a lockout was a good possibility, but nobody knew it would definitely reach the point of a lockout.

What the players (Weber, Suter, Parise, etc.) did know, was that the CBA was expiring and there was a very good chance that the huge payday, frontloaded contracts that they wanted would be done away with in the next CBA. So they took full advantage of the rules while they still could. Can't blame them for negotiating and signing those contracts.

predfan98 10-03-2012 03:13 PM

I'm not so sure about people not knowing. I still think Fehr knew there was going to be a lockout and has promoted this line of thinking of "unity" among the players.

And I think he knew the difference between revenue and profit........unlike Parise, who doesn't seem to have a clue.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4583346/

Frankly, I think Fehr wants this, likes this............I don't think he has any vested interest in having this settled. I bet he is still taking his salary (and I bet his brother still is also)..... Just an opinion....

How many lockouts has Fehr been involved in? And how long has he stayed in those positions afterwards? I honestly don't know.

Do I think that Suter/Parise/Weber took smart business advantage of the cba they were operating under? Yes....... but I also think one sold his integrity/honesty down the river.

adsfan 10-03-2012 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by predfan98 (Post 54736945)
I have to wonder how much the NHLPA was doing to prepare players for the lockout. What kind of "advance planning and knowledge" did all these players and their agents have before July1st?

Was this thing so written in stone(Lockout) at the highest levels that people there all knew this was coming? Was the NHLPA so readable for these agents getting these deals?

gulp, were the fans the only ones who thought people might be negotiating in good faith?

Granted these were high level FA's out there this year...... but these seem to be unprecedented front end loaded "signing bonus" .....all in the summer before a lockout!

I guess the combination of knowledge of a lockout, plus the liarpold and schneider effect was a just a perfect storm.....

Seems to be a little too coincidental for my taste........

I'm just sorry for the rest of the players that wanted to play. (apparently #20 who shall not be named skated a few days last week with teammates and is going home to hunt in Wisc for the fall....)

This post is just idle speculation and thoughts.... no knowledge...
Since there is no hockey, thought it might be amusing to see other peoples thoughts........if there is anyone here anymore.

The gun deer season runs for two weeks and ends around US Thanksgiving. I think bow & arrow season is before that, but I am not a hunter.

adsfan 10-03-2012 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 (Post 54742277)
I wouldn't say they knew there was going to be a lockout. Everyone from owners, players and fans expected that a lockout was a good possibility, but nobody knew it would definitely reach the point of a lockout.

What the players (Weber, Suter, Parise, etc.) did know, was that the CBA was expiring and there was a very good chance that the huge payday, frontloaded contracts that they wanted would be done away with in the next CBA. So they took full advantage of the rules while they still could. Can't blame them for negotiating and signing those contracts.

I would. Both sides could have started talking a year ago instead of waiting until the last month to really meet in person. That tells me that at least one side didn't care.

PredsV82 10-03-2012 09:33 PM

I dont think there was anything nefarious about the players assuming there would be a lockout... everyone could see it coming, and any big UFA had to also assume that the huge contracts would be gone under the new CBA.... and so the 3 plyers that could hold teams hostage and demand 100 million dollar contracts with huge signing bonuses did so... the only way to prevent it would have been collusion on the part of the owners, which wasnt going to happen...

TMI 10-03-2012 11:13 PM

I think Fehr looked at the situation and realized the potential for a lockout was definitely there. NHL owners have shown a willingness to lockout in the past.

With that said, if any UFA signing a contract this summer didn't take into account possibilities in the new CBA and the potential for a lockout he should fire his agent. That is exactly why Suter, Weber, and Parise got those insane signing bonuses. They knew there was a chance for a lockout, and owners knew the high level players were going to want signing bonuses just in case. At that point it was just a matter of outbidding the last team.

I think we saw a perfect storm this summer. A lot of the big name players had already been locked into long term deals. After Weber, Suter and Parise you had what? Semin and Doan? Good players for sure, but there are question marks surrounding Semin and everyone pretty much knew Doan would stay in Phoenix. Then you have the big teams who always try to reload during FA. Lidstrom retired, so demand for a #1 dman went up dramatically for everyone since Detroit would go so hard after Suter. Pronger could be completely done, and once Suter was locked up Philly had to go hard after Weber.

And let's also remember that the NHLPA came out and said they would be fine with allowing the old CBA to continue to be in place until a new agreement was reached, which would have allowed all of those arena workers keep their jobs. It's definitely posturing, but it could be true, too. I don't think the players should shoulder more of the blame than anyone else.

deanwormer 10-08-2012 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by predfan98 (Post 54737359)
i don't get how they are all just sheep, following what is best for the few?
.

This is always puzzling to me, too, when it seems that the overwhelming benefit of "unity" disproportionately favors "the few". Seems to me the bulk of the players would be better off overall playing hockey, having more healthy franchises, etc.

Fehr seems to have done a good job of making sure none of the players shoot off their mouths the way Walker did last time with his let the weak franchises fold - sorta' forgetting about the jobs of 100+ of his "brothers". And the nhlpa proposal to have the "rich" franchises share more is a good idea if you're arguing about franchise stability and overall ability to compete.

But they aren't fighting about pensions and insurance and guarantees in contracts, mostly overall dollars committed to salary. While everyone wants to "make more" I really wonder how much of those guaranteed dollars actually flow to the bulk of the players and how much is used for the ridiculously large contracts for the elite few - and the stupid contracts for the BCampbell's of the league?

TMI 10-08-2012 10:32 AM

Let's keep in mind that the NHLPA was willing to play this season under the old CBA until a new agreement was reached. Both sides are to blame for the work stoppage, but I don't think the players deserve any more blame than the owners. Maybe less, actually.

And I hate Fehr. I have since 2008ish

JR303 10-08-2012 11:12 AM

I really can't stand that "we would have played under the old cba" argument. I know you didn't say it, the PA did, but it's ridiculous. If the league was okay with that, they would have, too.

I think if the PA is going to play that game then the league should say, okay, we'll pay for everything, just as usual, except for your salaries. We will pay your full accrued salaries, per the cba upon its ratification. You still get to travel, eat, play, have health care, get all the perks you normally get, just not an actual paycheck. Also, all those people that rely on this league for their money will still be able to survive.

For the record, I believe both instances are equally ridiculous.

But, for the players to be playing the "they locked us out" card is silly. If they can't see the issues with the overall health of the league, then they are crazy. It's not as bad as last time, at all, but this is the best time to fix the issues at hand, because if the Canadian $ falls back to around $.80 American, all the teams will have some serious problems. These players are not martyrs, so the videos, the guise of playing a season under the cba, all of it is just insulting.

And as for the BoG, they have lost all credibility by giving GM's a pat on the back for signing big players (looking at you Liepold, as an example - you ********) and run around lamenting the league's issues. You helped create the problems, you help fix them.

And lastly, very few people seem to be holding agents accountable, but I don't see how they are getting off freely. They are also to blame for many of the contract silliness that goes on, and they benefit, immensely I might add, from the players' salaries, so of course they want them to keep rising.

In the end, I think a fair way to do this is to play this season at 57%, but as a reward for doing that, gradually scale it back to 49%. I am in favor of 50/50, but the extra percent in 4-5 years is to placate the PA to not have a rollback of any kind this season. But, they HAVE to put contract lengths, 6-8 years is my guess, and I would insist on signing bonuses being limited to the year that a contract is signed, only.

Not picking on you TMI, just getting a little tired of both sides laying this squarely on the other.

TMI 10-08-2012 12:07 PM

I mean, it doesn't have to be true. That's the beauty of the claim. They can say until the lockout is over that they would play through it, but they never have to prove it. Never. Not once.

And I understand. I don't take it personally. There is an entire site with well over 100k members pissed off right now. You either learn to take it in stride, or you quit ;)

101st_fan 10-08-2012 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deanwormer (Post 54841923)
This is always puzzling to me, too, when it seems that the overwhelming benefit of "unity" disproportionately favors "the few". Seems to me the bulk of the players would be better off overall playing hockey, having more healthy franchises, etc.


All pigs are equal ... some are just more equal than others.

Predatorbill 10-08-2012 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 101st_fan (Post 54844993)
All pigs are equal ... some are just more equal than others.

During my lifetime I changed my interpretation of that book. It is very simple "It is always better to be one of the pigs".


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