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-   -   Trade Value Question--CBJ and OTT (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=127199)

SENSible1* 02-02-2005 11:40 AM

Trade Value Question--CBJ and OTT
 
Posted on the Columbus board by a Sens fan.

To Ottawa
Marc Denis

To Coumbus
Martin Havlat
Andrej Meszaros
Ray Emery

Who wins and why?

NFITO 02-02-2005 11:44 AM

seems pretty lopsided to me here in favor of Columbus.

I don't see Denis' trade value that high... Havlat is young, and already a star... 1 for 1 with Denis might be closer, depending on how many goalies are available in the league, and Denis' contract status... but still a very iffy deal for Ottawa, as they might be able to get a comparable goalie elsewhere for less than Havlat.

Add in a top defense prospect (a 1st rounder a year ago) and a top goalie prospect, and this seems hugely lopsided in favor of Columbus...

at least it does to me :dunno:

LadyByngJeanRatelle 02-02-2005 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
From the Columbus board.

To Ottawa
Marc Denis

To Coumbus
Martin Havlat
Andrej Meszaros
Ray Emery

Who wins and why?


One of the worst proposals I've ever seen. Maybe Emery, but I don't think Ottawa would do

Havlat for Denis
or
Meszaros for Denis.

So they're not going to do all three for Denis.

Darth Milbury 02-02-2005 11:55 AM

Calling that deal "lopsided" is like saying that Jennifer Love Hewitt is "slightly attractive."

Yikes!

If you took Havlat out of the deal, it would still be lopsided. As it is, it is brutally unfair.

Denis had a nice season, and is a good young goalie. But, he is not a top five guy or anything like that, and even a top five guy would probably not command a package of that nature.

Darth Milbury 02-02-2005 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyByngJeanRatelle
One of the worst proposals I've ever seen. Maybe Emery, but I don't think Ottawa would do

Havlat for Denis
or
Meszaros for Denis.

So they're not going to do all three for Denis.

Havlat would be out of the question, IMO.

I think a more reasonable deal might be Meszaros and Emery for Denis and a 2nd rounder.

NFITO 02-02-2005 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Milbury

Denis had a nice season, and is a good young goalie. But, he is not a top five guy or anything like that, and even a top five guy would probably not command a package of that nature.

if I had that pkg that Ottawa does, I'd probably trade it for Luongo, Brodeur, and... well not much else... possibly Khabibulin.

not sure who else would be up at the top 5 category right now... Kipper is still only 1 season removed, so I wouldn't put that much value on him... Gigeure, Theodore, have both had excellent seasons, but not enough to warrant that kind of package - would probably trade Havlat alone for any of those guys though, given Ottawa's question mark in goalie.

but that offer for Luongo I think is fair (and I'd do it in Ottawa's situation)... he's young, already among the elite and getting better...

Darth Milbury 02-02-2005 12:04 PM

Luongo is more than top five goaltender in the NHL - he is a top five PLAYER. I certainly can't think of more than a handful of players I'd rate above him. So, yeah, you are right. That would be fair for a guy of that caliber, but Denis is not at that level.

Double-Shift LassÚ 02-02-2005 12:04 PM

So that folks don't question the hockey intelligence of CBJ fans on these boards, this started as a "What would it take to get Denis to OTT..." from an OTT poster. After finding out it would be difficult (CBJ doesn't really have anyone ready to play as much as Denis does, and fans here love him), and following some back-and-forth, the original OTT poster ended up with this. And he didn't feel like it would be worth it.

However, CBJ many fans said that they'd take it, and would then pursue possibly Biron or Noronen.

jacketracket* 02-02-2005 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
From the Columbus board.

To Ottawa
Marc Denis

To Coumbus
Martin Havlat
Andrej Meszaros
Ray Emery

Who wins and why?

In all fairness, you should have mentioned that the proposal was posted in the CBJ forum by a Sens fan.

SENSible1* 02-02-2005 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacketracket
In all fairness, you should have mentioned that the proposal was posted in the BJ forum, by a Sens fan.

I was attempting to get a feel of how others viewed the trade value each side has on the table regardless of the source of the proposal, but I'll change the original post to reflect the origin.

NFITO 02-02-2005 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double-Shift LassÚs
So that folks don't question the hockey intelligence of CBJ fans on these boards, this started as a "What would it take to get Denis to OTT..." from an OTT poster. After finding out it would be difficult (CBJ doesn't really have anyone ready to play as much as Denis does, and fans here love him), and following some back-and-forth, the original OTT poster ended up with this. And he didn't feel like it would be worth it.

However, CBJ many fans said that they'd take it, and would then pursue possibly Biron or Noronen.

hell if you could get that for Denis, it's a no-brainer.

but there is no way that Ottawa would offer that, and there is no way that another team wouldn't be ready to move their starter and look for their own Noronen or Biron, if they knew that kind of a pkg was available for a starter of Denis' calibre.

Matt Foley* 02-02-2005 12:12 PM

Of course it's lopsided for Columbus in the long run; it has to be when you consider how bad the Jackets will be in the short run after this trade. The prospect of Leclaire and Emery (two guys who aren't ready yet for the bigs, IMO) in goal for Columbus for an entire season should send shivers down the spines of Jackets fans. Columbus, in the end, should be rewarded for that. The debate should be, to what extent?

It's bad enough that our blueline sucks; now you want us to suck in goal, as well?

As I said in another thread re: this topic, for the next two or three years (taking into the consideration that the Jackets are going with a youth movement), the goal horns of opposing teams will go on the fritz from overuse whenever the Jackets come to town if we gave up our only NHL-caliber goaltender; no one in the organization is ready to take over as the starter if Denis left. Rookies on the forward lines, defense, and in goal: a recipe for disaster. Season ticket holders would likely leave in droves.

Columbus fans have had enough of losing and for the most part aren't willing to be patient enough to allow the team to make a trade that takes the organization several steps back now to take five or six steps forward as many as three years later. MacLean would not survive in Columbus long enough to see this trade tip in the Jackets' favor.

All that said, I wouldn't even think about doing that deal if I was Muckler. He'd be better off talking with another team with more goaltending depth than Columbus, say Buffalo.

jacketracket* 02-02-2005 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
I was attempting to get a feel of how others viewed the trade value each side has on the table regardless of the source of the proposal, but I'll change the original post to reflect the origin.

Understood.

But putting "From the CBJ Board" at the start of the post makes it appear as if we're a bunch of slack-jawed homers, grossly over-valuing our players.

Most of us responded to the Sens fan's proposal with tepid interest. :D

Double-Shift LassÚ 02-02-2005 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
hell if you could get that for Denis, it's a no-brainer.

but there is no way that Ottawa would offer that, and there is no way that another team wouldn't be ready to move their starter and look for their own Noronen or Biron, if they knew that kind of a pkg was available for a starter of Denis' calibre.

Agreed. My main objective was, as others have since done, to point out that it wasn't some dumb-*** CBJ fan making this proposal.

NFITO 02-02-2005 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Foley
Of course it's lopsided for Columbus in the long run; it has to be when you consider how bad the Jackets will be in the short run after this trade. The prospect of Leclaire and Emery (two guys who aren't ready yet for the bigs, IMO) in goal for Columbus for an entire season should send shivers down the spines of Jackets fans. Columbus, in the end, should be rewarded for that. The debate should be, to what extent?

It's bad enough that our blueline sucks; now you want us to suck in goal, as well?

As I said in another thread re: this topic, for the next two or three years (taking into the consideration that the Jackets are going with a youth movement), the goal horns of opposing teams will go on the fritz from overuse whenever the Jackets come to town if we gave up our only NHL-caliber goaltender; no one in the organization is ready to take over as the starter if Denis left. Rookies on the forward lines, defense, and in goal: a recipe for disaster. Season ticket holders would likely leave in droves.

Columbus fans have had enough of losing and for the most part aren't willing to be patient enough to allow the team to make a trade that takes the organization several steps back now to take five or six steps forward as many as three years later. MacLean would not survive in Columbus long enough to see this trade tip in the Jackets' favor.

All that said, I wouldn't even think about doing that deal if I was Muckler. He'd be better off talking with another team with more goaltending depth than Columbus, say Buffalo.

I agree with what you said here, and I've skimmed over the thread on the Columbus board and it makes total sense... Denis' trade value is not what is being proposed here, just that the jackets can't afford to move him for less..

totally understandable.

But *if* this offer was there, the lack of goaltending or not, you make the move.

Then you deal from your strength... with Zherdev there, the need for Havlat isn't there as much (especially when you don't have a legit #1), but his trade value is high around the league and you could probably get a goalie as good as Denis somewhere else with an asset like Havlat (or Zherdev) to move - and still keep Meszaros and Emery... just seems like good asset management to me.

of course you'll have to talk to other teams and see what else is available - and why this deal would never happen, because Ottawa would do the same to see what they can get for Havlat.

but hypothetically speaking, if Muckler did call Columbus and offer this (and we know he never would), Columbus would take the offer so fast, Muckler wouldn't have time to realize what a stupid move he just made.

SENSible1* 02-02-2005 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double-Shift LassÚs
Agreed. My main objective was, as others have since done, to point out that it wasn't some dumb-*** CBJ fan making this proposal.


Should I post the quotes from most Jacket fans rejecting the offer to give an accurate picture of their opinion?

jacketracket* 02-02-2005 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double-Shift LassÚs
Agreed. My main objective was, as others have since done, to point out that it wasn't some dumb-*** CBJ fan making this proposal.

I recognize your username, stranger :). I'm pretty sure I was at Nationwide the night it was coined.

Do you occasionally sit right behind the CBJ bench?

NFITO 02-02-2005 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double-Shift LassÚs
Agreed. My main objective was, as others have since done, to point out that it wasn't some dumb-*** CBJ fan making this proposal.

I've skimmed over the thread on the CBJ board, and understand where you guys are coming from.

If I was Columbus and Ottawa called me about Denis, I'd ask for Havlat, Hossa, Spezza, or Chara... could be interested in Redden, Phillips, and some others, but wouldn't likely think of a deal unless one of the top 4 are involved.

Ottawa would naturally say no... that would end any possible trade discussion of Denis to Ottawa.

Volcanologist 02-02-2005 12:27 PM

What is the point of this thread?

SENSible1* 02-02-2005 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PepNCheese
What is the point of this thread?

Not really very complicated.

Evaluate the trade.

Quote:

To Ottawa
Marc Denis

To Coumbus
Martin Havlat
Andrej Meszaros
Ray Emery

Who wins and why?

Matt Foley* 02-02-2005 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
I've skimmed over the thread on the CBJ board, and understand where you guys are coming from.

If I was Columbus and Ottawa called me about Denis, I'd ask for Havlat, Hossa, Spezza, or Chara... could be interested in Redden, Phillips, and some others, but wouldn't likely think of a deal unless one of the top 4 are involved.

Ottawa would naturally say no... that would end any possible trade discussion of Denis to Ottawa.

BINGO! Finally, someone from outside the CBJ fanbase gets it. Thank You.

Volcanologist 02-02-2005 12:35 PM

I think you know what I mean.

But whatever.

littleHossa 02-02-2005 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Foley
BINGO! Finally, someone from outside the CBJ fanbase gets it. Thank You.

I get it too but it's still biased. Denis once Leclaire becomes your #1(according to CBS fans) will be useless. He will be the Mattheu Garon of Columbus, just dying to unload him because they have better upfront. He's not the center of the organization, and if a good deal should come around, jump on it before Denis's value will be ZERO.

NFITO 02-02-2005 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleHossa
I get it too but it's still biased. Denis once Leclaire becomes your #1(according to CBS fans) will be useless. He will be the Mattheu Garon of Columbus, just dying to unload him because they have better upfront. He's not the center of the organization, and if a good deal should come around, jump on it before Denis's value will be ZERO.

yea, but Leclaire is far from a sure thing, and they need a starter while he's still adjusting.

dealing him for anything less than an overpayment at this point makes no sense for columbus because they can't go with leclaire and emery for example as their combo next season.

littleHossa 02-02-2005 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
yea, but Leclaire is far from a sure thing, and they need a starter while he's still adjusting.

dealing him for anything less than an overpayment at this point makes no sense for columbus because they can't go with leclaire and emery for example as their combo next season.

It's all about taking risks, and sometimes you get rewarded. Maybe they can get something like Cujo looking to reprove himself and will sign cheaply, or some veteran goaltender like Cechmanek.


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