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SubbanForCouturier 10-19-2012 01:10 AM

Despres
 
Hi guys !!

Value wise only, would you guys do :

Simon Despres vs Jeff Petry

Thanks !!!

#1GuinFan 10-19-2012 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SubbanForCouturier (Post 55107219)
Hi guys !!

Value wise only, would you guys do :

Simon Despres vs Jeff Petry

Thanks !!!



No, wouldn't even begin to consider it

aSockalypse 10-19-2012 05:14 AM

:facepalm:

MichiganWolverines 10-19-2012 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SubbanForCouturier (Post 55107219)
Hi guys !!

Value wise only, would you guys do :

Simon Despres vs Jeff Petry

Thanks !!!

Lay off the crackpipe. :sarcasm:

Rowdy Roddy Peeper 10-19-2012 10:47 AM

Not a snowball's chance.

spizzle420 10-19-2012 10:59 AM

Who the fk is Jeff Petry?

MichiganWolverines 10-19-2012 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spizzle420 (Post 55112421)
Who the fk is Jeff Petry?

He's a defenceman for the Edmonton Oilers, he attended Michigan State I think.



He's a decent two-way defenceman but he causes a lot of turnovers.

Fordy 10-19-2012 11:52 AM

In terms of our prospects, Despres is basically untouchable.

IHWR 10-19-2012 02:28 PM

Value-wise, it's closer than Pens posters will admit but it still favors Despres. Petry just doesn't have the luxury of playing behind and with as many solid veterans like Despres has, which is why his game is far less consistent.

Despres is bigger, faster and better in his own end but his offensive contributions typically get overvalued.

Again, I wouldn't swap him for Petry...but calling him untouchable is pretty ridiculous considering the depth the Pens have in their system on the blue line.

Darth Vitale 10-19-2012 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spizzle420 (Post 55112421)
Who the fk is Jeff Petry?

:laugh:

Exactly my initial reaction. The name sounded vaguely familiar but if you have to ask...

Rowdy Roddy Peeper 10-19-2012 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IHWR (Post 55117405)
Value-wise, it's closer than Pens posters will admit but it still favors Despres. Petry just doesn't have the luxury of playing behind and with as many solid veterans like Despres has, which is why his game is far less consistent.

Despres is bigger, faster and better in his own end but his offensive contributions typically get overvalued.

Again, I wouldn't swap him for Petry...but calling him untouchable is pretty ridiculous considering the depth the Pens have in their system on the blue line.

Very few players are truly untouchable, but it would take something pretty significant to make me want to part with Despres. With his size, skillset, and great play in limited action (you could argue he was our best defenseman outside of Letang during his call-ups), he's not only NHL-ready now, but has legit potential to become a good complementary top-pairing defenseman.

Outside of including him in a package for a Bobby Ryan-type winger (productive, young, manageable contract), I wouldn't let him go.

IHWR 10-19-2012 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper (Post 55117761)
Very few players are truly untouchable, but it would take something pretty significant to make me want to part with Despres. With his size, skillset, and great play in limited action (you could argue he was our best defenseman outside of Letang during his call-ups), he's not only NHL-ready now, but has legit potential to become a good complementary top-pairing defenseman.

Outside of including him in a package for a Bobby Ryan-type winger (productive, young, manageable contract), I wouldn't let him go.

Yeah...I don't disagree but Sidney Crosby is untouchable. Despres isn't and that's my only point here. The word untouchable on these boards is crazy over used. Basically, Despres is untouchable because he's a pretty good prospect that a bunch of fans really like. Rundblad was "untouchable" by Sens fans last year and he and a second round pick got swapped for Turris to fill a big need for them.

So it is entirely possible that Despres or another prospect defenseman get dealt for a winger...so there aren't untouchable.

****...if you ask me we should be actively trying to move one of these defensemen (Despres, Dumoulin, Harrington, etc...) to try and add some much needed winger depth...but what do I know...

#66 10-19-2012 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IHWR (Post 55117405)
Value-wise, it's closer than Pens posters will admit but it still favors Despres. Petry just doesn't have the luxury of playing behind and with as many solid veterans like Despres has, which is why his game is far less consistent.

Despres is bigger, faster and better in his own end but his offensive contributions typically get overvalued.

Again, I wouldn't swap him for Petry...but calling him untouchable is pretty ridiculous considering the depth the Pens have in their system on the blue line.

2nd... I mean we're not exactly talking about OEL here.

MSP and Despres is a nice starting point in a deal though.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper 10-19-2012 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IHWR (Post 55118669)
Yeah...I don't disagree but Sidney Crosby is untouchable. Despres isn't and that's my only point here. The word untouchable on these boards is crazy over used. Basically, Despres is untouchable because he's a pretty good prospect that a bunch of fans really like. Rundblad was "untouchable" by Sens fans last year and he and a second round pick got swapped for Turris to fill a big need for them.

So it is entirely possible that Despres or another prospect defenseman get dealt for a winger...so there aren't untouchable.

****...if you ask me we should be actively trying to move one of these defensemen (Despres, Dumoulin, Harrington, etc...) to try and add some much needed winger depth...but what do I know...

I hear ya. I guess "very unlikely to be moved unless the return fills a specific, high-value need" is more appropriate, but a little long-winded.

This team needs big, mobile, quality two-way defensemen like Despres, and being the most NHL-ready of our high-end prospects, I'd be hesitant to give him up for anything less than a Ryan-type (which would itself be a longshot anyway). Despres is probably more valuable to us than to just about any other team in the league.

I wouldn't be totally against dealing some of our defensive prospect depth, but given how crappy our current corps fared last playoffs, I'd rather move one or two of the vets to make room (read: Martin/Orpik).

IHWR 10-19-2012 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper (Post 55123125)
I hear ya. I guess "very unlikely to be moved unless the return fills a specific, high-value need" is more appropriate, but a little long-winded.

This team needs big, mobile, quality two-way defensemen like Despres, and being the most NHL-ready of our high-end prospects, I'd be hesitant to give him up for anything less than a Ryan-type (which would itself be a longshot anyway). Despres is probably more valuable to us than to just about any other team in the league.

I wouldn't be totally against dealing some of our defensive prospect depth, but given how crappy our current corps fared last playoffs, I'd rather move one or two of the vets to make room (read: Martin/Orpik).

I tried bringing this up in th top 20 votin but people typically don't like my pessimistic view of prospects since it's more fun to think they're all awesome. But in reality, of our top defensive prospects (Despres, Morrow, Harrington, Dumoulin, Pouliot and Maatta...and you could include Strait and Bortuzzo I guess) how many of them will develop into regular NHLers? Based on what I've learned by following prospects, probably 3 of them an my money is on Morrow, Despres and Maatta. That's just my opinion though, it's obviously still very much in the air.

But I love when people put together or future pairings like this...

Letang-Morrow
Despres-Pouliot
Dumoulin-Harrington
Maatta

...and get all psyched at how rock solid our defense will be in the future assuming all these guys are going to pan out. It's never really happened before and for as good and deep as this group is I don't think it's going to happen now.

I'm not going to get into specifics but I had the opportunity to take with an NHL scout this past summer and he said something crazy to me. He told me that teams will typically draft players that they know will never play an NHL game because you gotta draft someone in the later rounds. It blew my mind but it absolutely makes sense. How often do draft picks after the 2nd round become NHLers? It's pretty slim...something like 12% if I'm remembering the numbers right. So teams will draft their BPA and that's a player the team doesn't believe will ever be an NHLer. It just goes to show the realistic view these guys have on prospects.

So I started thinking, why the crap are the Pens loading up on defense? I always figured it was just BPA run amuck but Shero comes from the David Poile school of defensemen hoarding and GMs typically stick with that they know or have been taught. So while I don't think Shero's blatantly picking defensemen over forwards an ignoring his scouts advice, I think under his regime scouts are being groomed to value defensemen more than forwards. Perhaps it's the success rate he had in Nashville developing defensemen or his success rate in dealing defensemen with the Pens but he's artificially raised the value that defensemen have in the eyes of the organization. I'm not going to debate the validity of the strategy since it's been working so far and with having two generational talents on offense he has some room to be more creative when it comes to asset management.

My long winded point is, once GMs hit a home run at the draft, they spend the rest of their careers trying to recreate it using the same formula. Like once I got on a hot streak at the casino playing craps and I thought I had it all figured out because I won a bunch of money 5 days in a row. I promptly lost money the following 5 days using the same stupid system and that's because it's literally a crap shoot...just like the draft.

Anyways...I'm running out of steam so I'm just going to make an outlandish claim to end things off so people who reply to this post have something small they can put in bold and trash me for...Ray Shero's a bum! Ha...

Rowdy Roddy Peeper 10-19-2012 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IHWR (Post 55123763)
I tried bringing this up in th top 20 votin but people typically don't like my pessimistic view of prospects since it's more fun to think they're all awesome. But in reality, of our top defensive prospects (Despres, Morrow, Harrington, Dumoulin, Pouliot and Maatta...and you could include Strait and Bortuzzo I guess) how many of them will develop into regular NHLers?

But...wouldn't that be a good reason to hang onto defensive prospect depth to see who pans out, especially since our big league blueline just played arguably the worst playoff defense in NHL history?

Quote:

But I love when people put together or future pairings like this...

Letang-Morrow
Despres-Pouliot
Dumoulin-Harrington
Maatta

...and get all psyched at how rock solid our defense will be in the future assuming all these guys are going to pan out.
Yeah, that's a bit pollyanna-ish. They're almost certainly not all going to be NHLers, let alone for Pittsburgh.

Quote:

Based on what I've learned by following prospects, probably 3 of them an my money is on Morrow, Despres and Maatta. That's just my opinion though, it's obviously still very much in the air.
I think that's as pessimistic as the other prediction is optimistic.

If only 3 become NHL regulars out of a group that includes 3 players already on the cusp of regular NHL duty, 3 more recent 1st rounders, and guys with the personal and team success of Harrington and Dumoulin, then something will have gone horribly wrong. Like, Homer At The Bat wrong.

For the record, I'd bet good money that Harrington becomes an NHL regular. He's arguably the best U-20 defensive defenseman and PKer in the world - I love his style too.

Quote:

So I started thinking, why the crap are the Pens loading up on defense? I always figured it was just BPA run amuck but Shero comes from the David Poile school of defensemen hoarding and GMs typically stick with that they know or have been taught. So while I don't think Shero's blatantly picking defensemen over forwards an ignoring his scouts advice, I think under his regime scouts are being groomed to value defensemen more than forwards. Perhaps it's the success rate he had in Nashville developing defensemen or his success rate in dealing defensemen with the Pens but he's artificially raised the value that defensemen have in the eyes of the organization. I'm not going to debate the validity of the strategy since it's been working so far and with having two generational talents on offense he has some room to be more creative when it comes to asset management.

My long winded point is, once GMs hit a home run at the draft, they spend the rest of their careers trying to recreate it using the same formula. Like once I got on a hot streak at the casino playing craps and I thought I had it all figured out because I won a bunch of money 5 days in a row. I promptly lost money the following 5 days using the same stupid system and that's because it's literally a crap shoot...just like the draft.
I tend to agree about Shero. The defense bias is pretty obvious and likely a product of his time with Poile...but like you say, most of those selections look good so far, so it's hard to argue with the results.

I just hope we didn't pass on a gamebreaking offensive talent on what may be our only top 10 pick of the Crosby era because of it.

IHWR 10-19-2012 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper (Post 55129241)
I just hope we didn't pass on a gamebreaking offensive talent on what may be our only top 10 pick of the Crosby era because of it.

This. Is. My. Biggest. Fear.

I think we blew it with the Pouliot pick and a large part of me feels that it's part of Shero's attempt to recreate the Predators blue line from the past 2-3 years.

It was a bonehead move to pick a project defensemen ahead of more established forwards. I even said after the draft that if you were to tell me that somehow we nabbed Pouliot and Maatta with our first two picks I would have assumed we never traded Staal, moved up to pick Maatta on the first day and grabbed Pouliot in the second round. Someone got cute picking Pouliot at #8...especially with Forsberg and Grigorenko still on the board.

Ridiculous.

eXile59 10-19-2012 11:48 PM

Yeah not even close. Klefbom is about the only prospect of theirs that interests me & even then Klefbom is much further away from being a pro player than Despres is.

Jacob 10-19-2012 11:59 PM

Jeff Petry is human garbage, and every month I express mail him my dog's feces to let him know just how awful of a human being he is.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper 10-20-2012 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IHWR (Post 55129871)
This. Is. My. Biggest. Fear.

I think we blew it with the Pouliot pick and a large part of me feels that it's part of Shero's attempt to recreate the Predators blue line from the past 2-3 years.

It was a bonehead move to pick a project defensemen ahead of more established forwards. I even said after the draft that if you were to tell me that somehow we nabbed Pouliot and Maatta with our first two picks I would have assumed we never traded Staal, moved up to pick Maatta on the first day and grabbed Pouliot in the second round. Someone got cute picking Pouliot at #8...especially with Forsberg and Grigorenko still on the board.

Ridiculous.

Yeah, we're on the same page here. Hard to justify the Pouliot pick from either a BPA (based on general consensus) or team need perspective. If their off-the-board, position-of-strength pick ends up being the wrong one, someone needs to be held accountable.

For the record though, I do like Pouliot from what little I've seen of him. He's a smart, sly playmaker who can dictate the pace of the game. He just doesn't seem like the right pick at that point.

mpp9 10-20-2012 10:22 AM

Id be interested to get a Pens scout's take on our #8 pick. Was our organization simply sold on Pouliot or do they have so very little confidence in their ability to develop a top 6 forward that they'd pass on a top 5 forward in the draft.

iamjs 10-22-2012 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale (Post 55117705)
:laugh:

Exactly my initial reaction. The name sounded vaguely familiar but if you have to ask...

I would say that Despres is high on the untouchable list, or at least when rating prospects.

IHWR 10-22-2012 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamjs (Post 55186011)
I would say that Despres is high on the untouchable list, or at least when rating prospects.

Stop it with the untouchable nonsense.

wgknestrick 10-22-2012 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpp9 (Post 55135165)
Id be interested to get a Pens scout's take on our #8 pick. Was our organization simply sold on Pouliot or do they have so very little confidence in their ability to develop a top 6 forward that they'd pass on a top 5 forward in the draft.

(I agree with your post)
I don't know if I am just picking out a single word out of your post, but...

How many top 10 forward picks really need to be "developed"? Most top 10 forwards are what they are at this point. They obviously have been successful up to being drafted in the top 10, and usually can continue that success without much help outside of conditioning and nutrition guidance. I think top 10 forwards are a MUCH SAFER bet than top 10 defenders. I don't ever see why you'd risk a top 10 pick on any defender (ever).

Are any of these guys top 10 picks?

Chara
Lindstrom
Weber

I'd suggest that over just about any given time period, I can pick 3 defenders out of the late 1st and second rounds and they will be better than the best 3 defenders taken in the top 10 during that period. The same certainly cannot be said about forwards.


IMO you only really "develop" low draft picks to try to make them serviceable NHLers. The reason they drafted Pouliot is because they are lazy IMO and he was there in front of the scouts while drafting Morrow. Just look at all of Shero's picks and how they relate either to past picks or "sons of past NHLers". I don't think many will accuse the Pens of being a systematic (stat & results based) drafting club with their recent picks.

I still look to Jordan Staal as being the only NHLer that Shero drafted since 2006.

wgknestrick 10-22-2012 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IHWR (Post 55186559)
Stop it with the untouchable nonsense.

I agree. No one is untouchable.


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