HFBoards

HFBoards (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/index.php)
-   Detroit Red Wings (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34)
-   -   20 Greatest Red Wings (#2) (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1273403)

pdd 10-19-2012 10:50 PM

20 Greatest Red Wings (#2)
 
Current rankings so far:

1) Gordie Howe 52.27%

As no suggestions were made to add players, I'll replace Howe in the poll with arbitrary selection Marty Barry.

RedWingsNow* 10-19-2012 10:53 PM

Oh geez. You're doing this who thing?

not interested.

PierreMcGuire* 10-19-2012 11:13 PM

Yzerman.

The Zetterberg Era 10-19-2012 11:35 PM

Yzerman

I think we all know where this round is going. For that matter I am pretty sure where round three is going.

opivy 10-20-2012 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bob (Post 55130773)
Oh geez. You're doing this who thing?

not interested.

Why reply?

Peter Tosh 10-20-2012 05:52 AM

Chelios >>>>> Coffey in wings history. Even Larry Murphy >>> Coffey.

Peter Tosh 10-20-2012 06:07 AM

It's hard to make a fair assessment of a guy who died before I was even born, but looking at the stats and accomplishments, Marty Barry has done less as a Wing than Larionov, Draper, Maltby, Hasek and even Holmström.

But that is maybe the problem with comparing players from different eras. It's easy to be biased to either classic players or recent ones...

drmagg 10-20-2012 07:42 AM

Ted Lindsay. Though i f**ed up it and voted for #91 :baghead:

Sorry...

pdd 10-20-2012 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Tosh (Post 55133981)
It's hard to make a fair assessment of a guy who died before I was even born, but looking at the stats and accomplishments, Marty Barry has done less as a Wing than Larionov, Draper, Maltby, Hasek and even Holmström.

But that is maybe the problem with comparing players from different eras. It's easy to be biased to either classic players or recent ones...

Barry was 1st team center as a Wing, and he was top four in scoring three of his four seasons in Detroit. He was also the team's top line center during that time. Draper was a third liner, as was Maltby. Barry led all Wings in scoring during his tenure by 34 points over Syd Howe, in only two more games played. Larry Aurie was the next most prolific scorer in terms of PPG, but would still have finished 20 points behind had Aurie played a comparable amount of games during that span.

RaySheppard 10-21-2012 12:34 AM

Poll is nonsense. You're asking for #2 all time and Howe isn't listed. Be serious.

jaster 10-21-2012 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaySheppard (Post 55155595)
Poll is nonsense. You're asking for #2 all time and Howe isn't listed. Be serious.

Howe's not listed because he was already voted in as #1 ;)

But seriously, Marty Barry? The guy played less than 200 games for Detroit, he shouldn't be anywhere near a top-20 list. Jack Stewart as a candidate it pretty questionable too.

SoupNazi 10-21-2012 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaster (Post 55155733)
Howe's not listed because he was already voted in as #1 ;)

But seriously, Marty Barry? The guy played less than 200 games for Detroit, he shouldn't be anywhere near a top-20 list. Jack Stewart as a candidate it pretty questionable too.

Jiri Hudler will probably be on the poll for #3, if we put Marty Barry and Jack Stewart on there. We might as well open it up to everyone and just toll up the votes without the poll.

RabbinsDuck 10-21-2012 01:27 PM

Jack Stewart is arguably the Wings 3rd best defenseman ever (with Quackenbush and Pronovost).

Peter Tosh 10-21-2012 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaster (Post 55155733)
Howe's not listed because he was already voted in as #1 ;)

But seriously, Marty Barry? The guy played less than 200 games for Detroit, he shouldn't be anywhere near a top-20 list. Jack Stewart as a candidate it pretty questionable too.

That's what I mean. Just because something happened a long time ago, doesn't mean the accomplishment is greater. 1995-2009 is a great Red Wings era in history with lots of great players. A cup in '97 is worth just as much as a cup in the fifties.

And 200 games? I guess Slava Kozlov has done more, as well as Ciccarelli, Sheppard or Keith Primeau.

pdd 10-21-2012 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoupNazi (Post 55159811)
Jiri Hudler will probably be on the poll for #3, if we put Marty Barry and Jack Stewart on there. We might as well open it up to everyone and just toll up the votes without the poll.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Tosh (Post 55168071)
That's what I mean. Just because something happened a long time ago, doesn't mean the accomplishment is greater. 1995-2009 is a great Red Wings era in history with lots of great players. A cup in '97 is worth just as much as a cup in the fifties.

And 200 games? I guess Slava Kozlov has done more, as well as Ciccarelli, Sheppard or Keith Primeau.

Marty Barry played four seasons for the Wings and finished top four in scoring three times, once being named to the first team.

Jack Stewart played ten seasons for Detroit, and was a first-teamer three times and a second-teamer twice.

These guys were among the best players of their era. When I picked the poll selections, I picked Stewart over guys like Quackenbush, Pronovost, Chelios, Larson, Hollett, and Chiasson because Stewart was arguably the best defenseman in the league from 1943-1949 despite missing two seasons due to service in WWII.

Ciccarelli was never a key player for the Wings, and Primeau was a secondary scorer who would find a defensive commitment after leaving Detroit. Kozlov was a clutch scorer, but still a secondry piece. Sheppard was a top goal scorer, but his time with Detroit was short and sweet. And none of them were as important to the club as Barry was.

Peter Tosh 10-22-2012 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 55177847)
Sheppard was a top goal scorer, but his time with Detroit was short and sweet.

Just like that Barry dude's... Sheppard played 274 games in Detroit (which is more than Barry), and once hit the 50 goal plateau (Barry scored 21 at best). The seasons where shorter back then, but their stats are still somewhat comparable.

I'm not in any way arguing that Ray Sheppard is one of the top 20 Red Wings of all time. I'm just saying old players are sometimes overrated just because very few people alive today ever experienced them in action.

Barry was probably a great player in his days, but being a top 20 Red Wing, you need to at least play more games than Andreas Lilja or Brett Lebda did.

pdd 10-22-2012 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Tosh (Post 55182729)
Just like that Barry dude's... Sheppard played 274 games in Detroit (which is more than Barry), and once hit the 50 goal plateau (Barry scored 21 at best). The seasons where shorter back then, but their stats are still somewhat comparable.

I'm not in any way arguing that Ray Sheppard is one of the top 20 Red Wings of all time. I'm just saying old players are sometimes overrated just because very few people alive today ever experienced them in action.

Barry was probably a great player in his days, but being a top 20 Red Wing, you need to at least play more games than Andreas Lilja or Brett Lebda did.

Barry's career PPG is only slightly below that of Howie Morenz, who is considered one of the best players of all time and was a contemporary of Barry's. From 1930 to 1937 (their overlapping seasons) Morenz outscored Barry three times while Barry outscored Morenz five times, twice as a Red Wing. And furthermore, Barry's top seasons were in Detroit. So either Morenz is exceedingly overrated, Barry is unbelievably underrated, or it's somewhere in the middle. I vote for the third.

TatarTangle 10-22-2012 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drmagg (Post 55134355)
Ted Lindsay. Though i f**ed up it and voted for #91 :baghead:

Sorry...

It's going to be interesting where #91 ends up. I think he should be in the top 5 but he'll probably end up in the 10-15ish area.

TS Quint 12-02-2012 03:11 PM

Lidstrom can't even get propper respect from Wings fans. What does this guy have to do? He's only the 2nd best Dman to play the game, I can make a couple of arguements to make him the best to play the game and he's not the second best Wing? I love Stevie but come on guys.

Sentinel 12-02-2012 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TS Quint (Post 56187555)
Lidstrom can't even get propper respect from Wings fans. What does this guy have to do? He's only the 2nd best Dman to play the game, I can make a couple of arguements to make him the best to play the game and he's not the second best Wing? I love Stevie but come on guys.

Nick "doesn't have to do" anything anymore. He was just a tad below Yzerman, that's all. We are talking the Greatest Leader of All Time, remember? ;)

jkrx 12-02-2012 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TS Quint (Post 56187555)
Lidstrom can't even get propper respect from Wings fans. What does this guy have to do? He's only the 2nd best Dman to play the game, I can make a couple of arguements to make him the best to play the game and he's not the second best Wing? I love Stevie but come on guys.

No, he wasnt. He's top-5 all-time in competition with Bourque for the 3rd spot. Orr and Harvey is definitly ahead of him.

Bench 12-02-2012 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 56197347)
No, he wasnt. He's top-5 all-time in competition with Bourque for the 3rd spot. Orr and Harvey is definitly ahead of him.

I hate when Harvey gets brought up as better than a defender that dominated the position in an era when the game has never been more competitive and international.

Orr I can understand, sort of, but the Harvey love must have been passed down from your pops or granddad.

pdd 12-02-2012 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 56197347)
No, he wasnt. He's top-5 all-time in competition with Bourque for the 3rd spot. Orr and Harvey is definitly ahead of him.

Lidstrom was the best defenseman of his era at both ends of the ice, and has a valid argument for #2. Bourque and Harvey can validly be placed over him, as well.

Zorin 12-03-2012 03:50 AM

For D-men it's a coinflip between Lidström and Bourque for their time. Depends on what style you like more. Harvey lived in a completely different era. So did Orr. The latter redefined the game of a d-man, so I give him the edge.

Regarding the best Redwing: I think it is no competition for 1st really. Howe defined the powerforward, he dominated the game for decades, he played for Detroit what seems to be multiple milenii and gives Gretzky competition for the best player of all time with Lemieux and Orr being runner up.
After that we have Yzerman who turned the dead things into a very good - in latter stages the dominant franchise of it's time. He played here for a very long time and carried the team on his back almost a decade. Something Nick never had to do. When he came into the league he had Stevie, he was accompanied by the likes of Feds, Vladdy, Kozzie and other great players. The team featured Ciccarelli or Primeau, Sheppard or - in replacement - Larionov.

So I think in terms of greatness in the eyes of fans Stevie has the edge over Nick. But its close. And honestly, Stevie is no slouch. It is no shame to be a tad behind him - especially in terms of being loved by wings fans.
That does not mean you are not loved - and even less that you are not a great player! Look who is BEHIND him. Is there no love for Vladdy, Feds, Shanny, Sawchuk, Lindsay, Kelly or Delvecchio?! Yes there is. Heaps of! But there is MORE for Gordie, Stevie Y and St. Nick. So I think it is a pretty good list so far. And everybody who makes the top-10 (or even the Top 20 or 30 for that matter) ALL TIME in a franchise as storied as the Redwings is (or was) a darn good player and a pretty much loved and pretty well respected player.
You do not say that Lemieux, Orr, Yzerman or Lidström are jerks, because you call Gretzky and Howe the best players to ever play the game....

TS Quint 12-03-2012 01:24 PM

The way I think of it (I don't expect to change anyone's mind but I'll throw it out there) nobody noticed Lidstrom for the first 9 years of his career. In my opinion it was complete BS Pronger won the Norris in 2000 for having the best +/- when Lidstrom had 11 more points. I'm a big believer that points aren't everything but we all know that Lidtsrom didn't compromise his defense to put up those numbers. 97/98 Rob Blake are you kidding me? He was a minus player. Lidstrom was penalized for playing for playing mistake free hockey where he never had to look spectacular because he didn't make the mistakes that you would have to look spectacular to fix. It took 10 years and Yzerman's retirement for people to notice that. He was also penalized for playing on a good team and being Swedish.

What other player can say they dominated for 20 years? Outside of Howe no one can say they dominated for that kind of time line.

Harvey= in Norris Trophies but in a 6 team league and an overall smaller pool of players to choose from that just doesn't carry the same weight.

Ray Borque not even close. Great yes as good or dominant as Lidstrom? Nope. Only 5 Norris Trophies nuff said

Yes I love Yzerman (how can you not) but when you have easily the 2nd best Dman of all time to compete with. I don't think Yzerman was 2nd best at anything in the league nevermind all time. He was great at a lot of things was his strength. If I thought that Lidstrom and Yzerman we tied I might use leadership as a tie breaker and Yzerman might win. But its not like Yzerman blows Lidstrom away in the leadership category. Lidstrom was largely looked upon as one of the best leaders in the league. He was just not as open with the media.

.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:09 PM.

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com, A property of CraveOnline, a division of AtomicOnline LLC ©2009 CraveOnline Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved.