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-   -   Speculation: Keep Burke or not if it was your choice? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1276595)

Leafs For Life* 10-28-2012 01:42 AM

Keep Burke or not if it was your choice?
 
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Disgruntled Observer* 10-28-2012 02:08 AM

There isn't an argument anymore and polls like this shouldn't exist.

Factually, Burke has been flat out terrible and should be replaced. That is not an "opinion". That's a reasoned conclusion based entirely on facts.

Those that ignore facts and choose to believe what they want to believe (and not what has been proven as correct) are the only ones that will vote yes.

If somebody can look at the facts and conclude that Burke has done a good job, well, they've used spin. They've manipulated facts and reason to create an alternate reality.
So somebody that supports Burke does not interpret facts differently. They simply relied on spin instead of facts. That is a delusion, not an opinion.

In conclusion, there is no differing opinions about Burke.
There's those that factually agree that he's been a disaster.
And there's those who have created a delusional world based on spin and rhetoric.

Now that I've clarified the entire situation beyond rebuttal or argument, I don't believe threads like this need to exist anymore.
Remember... I have not offered my mere opinion here. I have offered a reasoned conclusion after careful examination of factual evidence.

7even 10-28-2012 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer (Post 55338647)
There isn't an argument anymore and polls like this shouldn't exist.

Factually, Burke has been flat out terrible and should be replaced. That is not an "opinion". That's a reasoned conclusion based entirely on facts.

Those that ignore facts and choose to believe what they want to believe (and not what has been proven as correct) are the only ones that will vote yes.

If somebody can look at the facts and conclude that Burke has done a good job, well, they've used spin. They've manipulated facts and reason to create an alternate reality.
So somebody that supports Burke does not interpret facts differently. They simply relied on spin instead of facts. That is a delusion, not an opinion.

In conclusion, there is no differing opinions about Burke.
There's those that factually agree that he's been a disaster.
And there's those who have created a delusional world based on spin and rhetoric.

Now that I've clarified the entire situation beyond rebuttal or argument, I don't believe threads like this need to exist anymore.
Remember... I have not offered my mere opinion here. I have offered a reasoned conclusion after careful examination of factual evidence.

Thanks for telling everyone any thoughts they have that don't fit your false dichotomy are invalid :thumbu:

HeroNtF 10-28-2012 02:16 AM

Burke is rebuilding ! say it with me (re-bill-ding). What would you have done different ? got rid of our first round picks for someone old and past their prime to get this team into the playoffs ?

He has failed in the free agency department, but has made great trades for this club. No one can say Burke has failed until we see what our youth that is actually developing for once, can do. I for one have hope in what our kids will produce at the NHL level.

If you are under the impression that our current team is Burkes vision of a complete team, than you are nothing but a fool, and if that is all that Burke can produce, we are all but fools.

LeafOfBread 10-28-2012 02:28 AM

The full body of his work is yet to take form yet, we don't really know how his work is going to affect this franchise 2-3 years from now, and that's what is important for a team like this, the future.

So far, I like what he's done prospect wise and under his watch the Marlies have gone back to respectability as well. The pipeline of prospects looks good and we have a deep defense which I like, though I feel it wasn't being utilized properly under Wilson so hopefully we see it the way it should be under Carlyle.

Obviously, there are still glaring holes that need to be filled, but things don't get fixed overnight.

The only issues I really have with Burke is that he talked WAY too much in his first few years and now you have threads like "Burke blarney" on the main boards because people specifically dig up things he said to make him look bad. He never should've been so overzealous in the things he said in press conferences and interviews because it looks bad now. The Kessel trade was also a bit of a miscalculation, but that's been beat to death already; I simply wish he had put top 5 protection on those picks. Kessel is still a great player though. And lastly, while acquiring more goalies to improve the pipeline, he didn't properly address the goalie situation on the big club. He really should've tried harder at acquiring a veteran back-up or an experienced guy, I know we had JSG but we let him go right when he was back in good health. I'm still a little scared too if we go another season with Reimer and an inexperienced goalie behind him. Those are my only real gripes with him.

diceman934 10-28-2012 03:09 AM

I say his body of work has been horrible.....he has rebuild the Marlies but not the Leafs. He was hired to rebuild the Leafs.

He has managed to have an individual as a captain of the team that is not respected by his team mates nor any opponents.

He kept his friend as a coach and blames him for our team being soft.

He allows his coaches to undermined his "best goalie coach in the world".

He allows his coaches to verbally attack young players in the media.

He made a trade trying to prove how smart he was and it proved that he was dumb.

He is trading players who are not a problem because the player who is tells him to.

He signs a concussed player to a 4 year deal.

He verbally attacks members of the media.

He is always so busy telling people how smart he is and how he has rules and policies that are different than the other GM's. Why not simply allow others to judge.

He has failed to address the goalie situation.

Gardiner, Lupul trades were great. Drafting Rielly was a great pick.

His signing off free agents are the worst in the NHL......

How would you rate him?

Me ......Horrible

PS I never voted....

Sam Slick* 10-28-2012 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer (Post 55338647)
There isn't an argument anymore and polls like this shouldn't exist.

Factually, Burke has been flat out terrible and should be replaced. That is not an "opinion". That's a reasoned conclusion based entirely on facts.

Those that ignore facts and choose to believe what they want to believe (and not what has been proven as correct) are the only ones that will vote yes.

If somebody can look at the facts and conclude that Burke has done a good job, well, they've used spin. They've manipulated facts and reason to create an alternate reality.
So somebody that supports Burke does not interpret facts differently. They simply relied on spin instead of facts. That is a delusion, not an opinion.

In conclusion, there is no differing opinions about Burke.
There's those that factually agree that he's been a disaster.
And there's those who have created a delusional world based on spin and rhetoric.

Now that I've clarified the entire situation beyond rebuttal or argument, I don't believe threads like this need to exist anymore.
Remember... I have not offered my mere opinion here. I have offered a reasoned conclusion after careful examination of factual evidence.

Another useless post coming from the spin doctor himself. You have tried lying and BS'ing at every turn. When you try to present "facts" the way you see them, there are a bunch of us who prove you wrong step of the way.

You tried to say that this team and the 08 team were almost the same age....we proved that there is at least 3 years apart.
You tried to tell us that the 08 team scored more goals and we again, proved you wrong.
You tried to say that the 08 team had more wins when infact they had one less.
You tried on 2 occassions to say Burke was the highest paid manager in all the world in the history of the world when in fact there are 30 more highly played managers.

Your posts are viewed for what they are.....flat out garbage.

You do not know a thing about hockey. If anyone disagrees with your opinion you accuse them on spinning EVERY time, and thats because you have no base to any of your arguments. You are too easy to prove wrong on every subject. You just make stuff up.

You have been proven wrong on every turn. Just give it up. We know you.

Dreakmur 10-28-2012 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Slick (Post 55339117)
You tried to say that this team and the 08 team were almost the same age....we proved that there is at least 3 years apart.

Our team is young because we lack veterans, not because we're stacked with youth.

The 2008-09 team had a handful of 40 year-olds that really bought up the age. Jamal Mayers, Brad May, Curtis Joseph, etc were not part of the core, but were there to provide leadership. They were not major contributors, but they did really push that average age upward.

Here's the list of the ages for the top-6 forwards and top-4 defensemen for the 2008-09 team and the 2011-12. Is one really much younger than the other?

Which Team?
Forwards 25, 25, 28, 28, 29, 35
Defense 19, 24, 30, 31

Which Team?
Forwards - 24, 25, 26, 28, 28, 30
Defense 21, 25, 26, 31


While you are correct that the 2008-09 team didn't have the same average age, it wasn't because this current team is lined with elite young talent. As I said before, the reason we have a low average age is because e completely lack grey-bearded veterans.

Quote:

You tried to tell us that the 08 team scored more goals and we again, proved you wrong.
2008-09 team scored 250 goals.
2011-12 team scored 231 goals.

Quote:

You tried to say that the 08 team had more wins when infact they had one less.
One less win, but one more point in the standing.

Disgruntled Observer* 10-28-2012 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Slick (Post 55339117)
Another useless post coming from the spin doctor himself. You have tried lying and BS'ing at every turn. When you try to present "facts" the way you see them, there are a bunch of us who prove you wrong step of the way.

You tried to say that this team and the 08 team were almost the same age....we proved that there is at least 3 years apart.
You tried to tell us that the 08 team scored more goals and we again, proved you wrong.
You tried to say that the 08 team had more wins when infact they had one less.
You tried on 2 occassions to say Burke was the highest paid manager in all the world in the history of the world when in fact there are 30 more highly played managers.

Your posts are viewed for what they are.....flat out garbage.

You do not know a thing about hockey. If anyone disagrees with your opinion you accuse them on spinning EVERY time, and thats because you have no base to any of your arguments. You are too easy to prove wrong on every subject. You just make stuff up.

You have been proven wrong on every turn. Just give it up. We know you.

Dreakmur has done an excellent job proving your lies as lies.

So now I can say the same to you.
"Sam Slick said that the 08 team scored more goals than last year. BUT HE'S WRONG. That means all of his posts are garbage and he's a liar."

Here are the verifiable facts.

The team burke inhereted finished 10 in goals for.
Last years team finished 10th in goals for.

The team Burke inherited finished 30th in goals against.
Last years team finished 29th in goals against.

The team Burke inherited finished 7th last.
Last years team finished 5th last.

Both the Hockey News and HF rate our 2008 prospects higher than our current prospects.

Those are the FACTS!!!!
That's goals for, goals against, wins, and prospects. THE FOUR MOST IMPORTANT STATS FOR A GM!!!!!!

So based on FACTS, Burke has been a TERRIBLE gm. The only way to defend him is to use SPIN instead of accepting those FACTS!!!

Kirkpatrick 10-28-2012 04:46 AM

Burke is Batman.

disgruntleddave 10-28-2012 05:07 AM

Are we better off now than we were 4 or so years ago?

Like the USA, their president screwed them and set them up for a downward spiral. Now the USA is getting better after slowly coming out of a nose dive - a dive where the biggest loss in altitude happened under the new president.

We were set up to fail miserably. Just like the end of bush's presidency, it was only a matter of time until the impacts started to be felt more directly.

Now we have burke, who has had some missteps, who has seen the ship go down thanks to our past, and has slowly stopped the increase in bleeding and is on the way up.

If you don't think the USA is better off now than 4 years ago, then you will likely see the same with our team. It is a shortsighted view that does not understand what momentum is, and how long it takes to correct it when it's going in the wrong direction.

Sundinisagod 10-28-2012 05:35 AM

Burke has not done a great job here, but I would still keep him around for now (for lack of better options). I wouldn't give him a long term extension until we are a playoff team.

4evaBlue 10-28-2012 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreakmur (Post 55339297)
Our team is young because we lack veterans, not because we're stacked with youth.

The 2008-09 team had a handful of 40 year-olds that really bought up the age. Jamal Mayers, Brad May, Curtis Joseph, etc were not part of the core, but were there to provide leadership. They were not major contributors, but they did really push that average age upward.

Here's the list of the ages for the top-6 forwards and top-4 defensemen for the 2008-09 team and the 2011-12. Is one really much younger than the other?

Which Team?
Forwards – 25, 25, 28, 28, 29, 35
Defense – 19, 24, 30, 31

Which Team?
Forwards - 24, 25, 26, 28, 28, 30
Defense – 21, 25, 26, 31


While you are correct that the 2008-09 team didn't have the same average age, it wasn't because this current team is lined with elite young talent. As I said before, the reason we have a low average age is because e completely lack grey-bearded veterans.

Main offensive contributors in '08-'09 (40 Pts+)
Blake: [35] 25G, 38A, 63 Pts
Ponikarovsky: [28] 23G, 38A, 61 Pts
Stajan: [25] 15G, 40A, 48 Pts
Grabovski: [25] 20G, 28A, 48 Pts
Stempniak: [26] 14G, 30A, 44 Pts
Hagman: [30] 22G, 22A, 42 Pts
Kubina: [31] 14G, 26A, 40 Pts
Avg age: 28.57, lead by the veteran Blake

Main offensive contributors in '11-'12 (40 Pts+)
Kessel: [24] 37G, 45A, 82 Pts
Lupul: [28] 25G, 42A, 67 Pts
Grabovski: [28] 23G, 28A, 51Pts
Bozak: [26] 18G, 29A, 47 Pts
Phaneuf: [27] 12G, 32A, 44 Pts
MacArthur: [27] 20G, 23A, 43 Pts
Avg age: 26.67, lead by the elite sniper Kessel, getting ready to enter his primes

Main Defensive contributors in '08-'09 (ToI/G, SHToI/G)
Kaberle [31]: 23:27 ToI/G, 1:07 SH ToI/G
White [24]: 22:50 ToI/G, 2:23 SH ToI/G
Kubina [31]: 22:03 ToI/G, 1:41 SH ToI/G
Schenn [19]: 21:32 ToI/G, 3:05 SH ToI/G
Finger [30]: 20:29 ToI/G, 2:27 SH ToI/G
Avg age: 27.0, with more than half of them over the age of 30 at the time

Main Defensive contributors in '11-'12 (ToI/G, SHToI/G)
Phaneuf [27]: 25:17 Toi/G, 2:30 SH ToI/G
Gunnarsson [25]: 21:42 ToI/G, 2:38 SH ToI/G
Gardiner [21]: 21:35 ToI/G, 1:45 SH ToI/G
Liles [31]: 21:20 ToI/G, 0:32 ToI/G
Avg age: 26.0, with one 30+ player in a mentor role for our upcoming youngsters

Goalie(s) in '08-'09
Toskala: [32] 22W, 17L, 11 OT, 3.26 GAA, .891 SV%

Goalie(s) in '11-'12
Gustavsson: [27] 17W, 17L, 4 OT, 2.92 GAA, .902 SV%
Reimer: [24] 14W, 14L, 4 OT, 3.10 GAA< .900 SV%

Square brackets include players' ages at the end of the season, for the sake of consistency.

Whichever way you slice it, the main contributors are younger. Our 30+ players (Connolly, Komisarek, Orr, Steckel, Lombardi, Armstrong, and even Liles) had very little positive effect on our performance this season, while the same count not be said for the '08-'09 team (May, Blake, Mayers, Kubina, Hamilton, Kaberle, Devereaux, Van Ryn, Hagman, Finger) which relied on them much more heavily.

You take away our current 30+ crew and replace them with prospects in the system, and we could very well have finished better. You take away the '08-'09's 30+ crew and replace them with prospects in the system, and we're looking at the #1 overall pick for that season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreakmur (Post 55339297)
2008-09 team scored 250 goals.
2011-12 team scored 231 goals.

This is one of our sore spots. The '08-'09 team had much better scoring depth than we have currently. Right now, we have too many 3rd liners, and not enough 2nd liners. Hopefully the acquisition of JVR, and potentially the development of Kadri will help in this regard. Kessel and Loops can only do so much offensively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreakmur (Post 55339297)
One less win, but one more point in the standing.

Pretty irrelevant point. Both teams sucked, but for different reasons.

onebighockeyfan 10-28-2012 08:36 AM

84% in favor of Burke. Wow. Keep drinking the cool-aid. He's done nothing to deserve that high a vote of confidence. Perhaps a50-50 split but not 84%. Geez.

MorriPage 10-28-2012 08:39 AM

We hear this same argument all the time, about how people want Burke gone like they've never wanted anythign else in life. I'm all for getting rid of Burke, if a suitable replacement can be found. Let's hear some names, people. Who's available, could survive in this city with the media that's ready to crucify anyone at the drop of a hat and is also a more than suitable candidate? It's not enough to just get rid of Burke. We have to put someone else in his place. This isn't just any franchise. Being a general manager for the Toronto Maple Leafs is not the same as being a general manager anywhere else.

eyeball11 10-28-2012 08:44 AM

Is there a reason we have this thread every 2 days?

Aplayaz2000 10-28-2012 08:45 AM

I love the Burke.

RogerRoeper* 10-28-2012 08:51 AM

If we get rid of Burke Dave Nonis is the the new GM

smitty10 10-28-2012 09:07 AM

Yes, keep him.

Although the team still has yet to see success under his reign (very frustrating), he's really improved the core of this team and completely turned around the prospect pool. Burke worked with absolutely nothing outside of Schenn to give this team a very valuable core and a good group to build around. The #1 goalie and top line center continues to elude him, but I'm confident he can at least improve the former going into next season.

He really had to take a lot of risk to improve this team (Kessel deal) and has made some very good trades in order to do so. He's turned garbage into gold a couple times, which is why I think he's still a great GM for this franchise. Anyone who turns Hagman, White, Stajan, Mayers, Beauchemin and Kaberle into Phaneuf, Ashton, Lupul, Gardiner, Colborne, Biggs and Liles is good in my books.

smitty10 10-28-2012 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelletier666 (Post 55340261)
84% in favor of Burke. Wow. Keep drinking the cool-aid. He's done nothing to deserve that high a vote of confidence. Perhaps a50-50 split but not 84%. Geez.

What has he done to deserve being fired? Sure, his initial analysis of the situation proved incorrect and, in turn, has denied this team success so far, but he's really turned around the core of this team and our prospect pool. The improvements he's made to this team may not have put us into the playoffs yet, but he's done a lot with nothing since arriving and has made very good selections in the draft.

It takes time to turn an organization around and he was wrong to this it could be done so quickly. Maybe if the team doesn't make the playoffs this season I'll flop to the other side, but he's made a ton of good moves that have made this team better since arriving. I don't want to see him gone yet.

iPunch 10-28-2012 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disgruntleddave (Post 55339507)
Are we better off now than we were 4 or so years ago?

Like the USA, their president screwed them and set them up for a downward spiral. Now the USA is getting better after slowly coming out of a nose dive - a dive where the biggest loss in altitude happened under the new president.

We were set up to fail miserably. Just like the end of bush's presidency, it was only a matter of time until the impacts started to be felt more directly.

Now we have burke, who has had some missteps, who has seen the ship go down thanks to our past, and has slowly stopped the increase in bleeding and is on the way up.

If you don't think the USA is better off now than 4 years ago, then you will likely see the same with our team. It is a shortsighted view that does not understand what momentum is, and how long it takes to correct it when it's going in the wrong direction.

This guy gets it.

Kyle Doobas 10-28-2012 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeafOfBread (Post 55338827)
The only issues I really have with Burke is that he talked WAY too much in his first few years and now you have threads like "Burke blarney" on the main boards because people specifically dig up things he said to make him look bad.

All GMs say things, it's just that most teams don't have a bunch of muttonheads who are so pathologically obsessed with them that they take the time to dig up out-of-context quotes from nearly half a decade ago.

htpwn 10-28-2012 09:33 AM

This is an original idea for a thread.

dubey 10-28-2012 09:33 AM

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1270879

FlareKnight 10-28-2012 09:37 AM

We seem to go through one of these once a week.

I'm still saying fire him at the nearest opportunity. Misread the team, tried to rush things, and now has been forced to swallow a slower method that he didn't even want. You can break it into trades, prospects, and free agents. Trades overall have been good, prospects could have been better if he didn't try to rush things, and free agents have been an overwhelming series of disasters. Maybe the problem being that he'd rather make arguments about the right kinds of contracts rather than actually fixing his team.

Not everything has been a disaster, but I have zero faith in him being able to put together a team that can actually accomplish something. Burke might not have had a lot to start with, but the fact he didn't realize that just makes it worse.


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