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-   -   Winter Classic has been cancelled. (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1277053)

WingedWheel1987 10-29-2012 11:27 AM

Winter Classic has been cancelled.
 
http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/85...ed-source-says

Well isn't this just awesome?

Updated title and added confirmation link to first post.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/85...gs-source-says

Z40 10-29-2012 12:41 PM

:pout:

They better give us the exact same event in 2014.

aar000n 10-29-2012 12:51 PM

What about the alumni game?

WingedWheel1987 10-29-2012 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aar000n (Post 55373097)
What about the alumni game?

I assume the entire thing will be cancelled if there is no Winter Classic.

Shoalzie 10-29-2012 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 (Post 55373439)
I assume the entire thing will be cancelled if there is no Winter Classic.



I think I heard all those games scheduled around the WC would just be moved to the Joe...the GLI obviously is typically played at the Joe anyway.

The Zetterberg Era 10-29-2012 01:46 PM

Not surprising, Fehr thinks this is what will break the league, once it is off the table the NHLPA really is in for a world of hurt.

ProPAIN 10-29-2012 02:49 PM

It sucks for sure, but if they cancel it this season, they'll just reschedule it for next year. It was going to be the biggest hockey event ever, so they won't let that go if it doesn't happen this year.

RedWingsNow* 10-29-2012 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedWings19405 (Post 55374267)
Not surprising, Fehr thinks this is what will break the league, once it is off the table the NHLPA really is in for a world of hurt.

Where do you hear this?
Sounds like BSOH nonsense to me.

TheOtherOne 10-29-2012 03:58 PM

Yea the League says they're willing to meet anytime but the PA refuses to talk. The PA says they're willing to meet anytime but the League refuses to talk. Meanwhile they all enjoy martinis fetched for them by their butlers on their private beaches while the loyal fans get screwed.

**** hockey, let's all start watching... erm... lacrosse?

ALF AmericanLionsFan 10-29-2012 03:59 PM

Wow, I felt extremly lucky to land tickets to both the WC and Alumni game as well as being forced to buy GLI tickets. NOW, I wasted time and energy in getting those tickets:shakehead. REALLY disappointed right now. Makes me sick to my stomach as I was very excited like many for both. Not sure I give a crap about them coming back at all this year or even next.:rant:

elsonico 10-29-2012 04:09 PM

what a shame, let's hope they rescedule it to 2014.

I actually tried to gt tickets for the game and would have purchased a flight ticket etc. to Detroit. Imagine shelling out up to 1000$ for game, flight and hotel and than finding out the whole thing gets cancelled... :shakehead

RedWingsNow* 10-29-2012 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOtherOne (Post 55377931)
Yea the League says they're willing to meet anytime but the PA refuses to talk. The PA says they're willing to meet anytime but the League refuses to talk. Meanwhile they all enjoy martinis fetched for them by their butlers on their private beaches while the loyal fans get screwed.

**** hockey, let's all start watching... erm... lacrosse?

The League isn't willing to talk to the PA unless the PA wants to talk about the league's last offer

WingedWheel1987 10-29-2012 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bob (Post 55379903)
The League isn't willing to talk to the PA unless the PA wants to talk about the league's last offer

Tough **** for the PA. They have no leverage and they know it. The players are free to never agree to a new CBA, but they are just screwing themselves over even more. Even the worst possible new CBA would still be 10x better than what they would be getting in the other small fry leagues around the world.


This is why i find lockouts so hilarious. They arent negotiations. NBA and NFL players realized that before they lost an entire years worth of pay. Unfortunately the NHL players still havent figured that out. I hoped that 2004 would have helped them see that, but apparently Fehr is feeding them a bunch of garbage.

Time to cave and start making millions of dollars again.

MissNHL 10-29-2012 05:46 PM

If they WC is indeed cancelled, so are all the events at Comerica Park. The GLI would be moved to the Joe. I assume the AHL and OHL games will also be moved to there respected arena's. There would be no Alumni game.


Curious how the NHL will be going about refunding everyone since they're in charge of the tickets.

TheOtherOne 10-29-2012 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bob (Post 55379903)
The League isn't willing to talk to the PA unless the PA wants to talk about the league's last offer

Yea that's great. I also read that the PA isn't willing to talk to the League unless the League wants to talk about the PA's last offer. So what does that leave us with? 2 multibillionaires fighting over the keys to the Ferrari while the fan watches powerless.

The Zetterberg Era 10-29-2012 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bob (Post 55377059)
Where do you hear this?
Sounds like BSOH nonsense to me.

Most people have thought they would save the winter classic. That would be something the league would be unwilling to sacrifice. I think the Owners and Bettman have realized that this is what Fehr is selling the players on. Once it is off the table, the players should panic a little. By the way as soon as they have cancelled it they can pretty much set a date of Christmas to when they kill the season. Speeding up the timeline will help keep this thing going, I see their point. Right now as you are seeing by players like Ryan Miller the union thinks they are being tested. If the Owners aren't testing their resolve and really want this over killing the Winter Classic should produce the wait a second moment in the players department.

Fehr spends a lot of time talking about concession. Not that he is getting one he really wants here, but if the league kills the golden goose this week because they believe that strongly in this that is a pretty big statement. I know you and Fugu don't want to hear that, but the players should be very concerned over what this means. Without it on the table what is left as drop dead dates, what keeps the league from really dropping the hammer? I believe the owners can hold out until next January 1st as in 2014, that is their ultimate drop dead date in my opinion. If you truly believe the NHLPA can wait that long great, my guess is at some point 400 guys vote hell no to that plan whether or not Fehr and the Superstars like it.

juiceman 10-29-2012 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissNHL (Post 55380917)
If they WC is indeed cancelled, so are all the events at Comerica Park. The GLI would be moved to the Joe. I assume the AHL and OHL games will also be moved to there respected arena's. There would be no Alumni game.


Curious how the NHL will be going about refunding everyone since they're in charge of the tickets.

Here's a link to the e-mail that was sent out to ticket holders earlier this month concerning refunds:

Winter Classic Cancellation Policy

Policy from Red Wings' website

If the Winter Classic does get cancelled, then everything else associated with it will be cancelled as well. I am curious to see if Ticketmaster will be refunding the full amount (including order fees), or just the cost of the tickets. They are notorious about refunding ticket costs only, but I will be disputing the order fees with my credit card if they don't get refunded.

RedWingsNow* 10-29-2012 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedWings19405 (Post 55382117)
Most people have thought they would save the winter classic. That would be something the league would be unwilling to sacrifice. I think the Owners and Bettman have realized that this is what Fehr is selling the players on. Once it is off the table, the players should panic a little. By the way as soon as they have cancelled it they can pretty much set a date of Christmas to when they kill the season. Speeding up the timeline will help keep this thing going, I see their point. Right now as you are seeing by players like Ryan Miller the union thinks they are being tested. If the Owners aren't testing their resolve and really want this over killing the Winter Classic should produce the wait a second moment in the players department.

Fehr spends a lot of time talking about concession. Not that he is getting one he really wants here, but if the league kills the golden goose this week because they believe that strongly in this that is a pretty big statement. I know you and Fugu don't want to hear that, but the players should be very concerned over what this means. Without it on the table what is left as drop dead dates, what keeps the league from really dropping the hammer? I believe the owners can hold out until next January 1st as in 2014, that is their ultimate drop dead date in my opinion. If you truly believe the NHLPA can wait that long great, my guess is at some point 400 guys vote hell no to that plan whether or not Fehr and the Superstars like it.

My guess is that nearly every player in the PA knew who Don Fehr was when he was hired. MY guess is nearly every player in the PA knows the last lockout went a full year.

So a) The players know they have a winner on their side. b) the players know the owners are perfectly willing to lock them out for an entire season

Putting those two things together, I find it's hard to believe that Fehr and the players are looking at the Winter Classic as some kind of major pressure point.

IMO, that's a media construction. Hockey writers don't know what else to throw out there, so they write about stuff that sounds good until you actually apply logic to it.

MOD

RedWingsNow* 10-29-2012 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 (Post 55380099)
Tough **** for the PA. They have no leverage and they know it. The players are free to never agree to a new CBA, but they are just screwing themselves over even more. Even the worst possible new CBA would still be 10x better than what they would be getting in the other small fry leagues around the world.


This is why i find lockouts so hilarious. They arent negotiations. NBA and NFL players realized that before they lost an entire years worth of pay. Unfortunately the NHL players still havent figured that out. I hoped that 2004 would have helped them see that, but apparently Fehr is feeding them a bunch of garbage.

Time to cave and start making millions of dollars again.

Well, Don Fehr and the PA managed to beat the MLB owners back.
There's no rule that says ONLY the players have to give back in every negotiation.

So open your eyes and look around. There are lots of ways this could end.

RedWingsNow* 10-29-2012 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOtherOne (Post 55381729)
Yea that's great. I also read that the PA isn't willing to talk to the League unless the League wants to talk about the PA's last offer. So what does that leave us with? 2 multibillionaires fighting over the keys to the Ferrari while the fan watches powerless.

Where did you read that?
I think you're making that up. Or reading it from someone who is making it up.

The PA was in NYC all week waiting to talk tot he owners and the owners refused.

WingedWheel1987 10-29-2012 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bob (Post 55384915)
Well, Don Fehr and the PA managed to beat the MLB owners back.
There's no rule that says ONLY the players have to give back in every negotiation.

So open your eyes and look around. There are lots of ways this could end.

That play with the MLBPA only works once.

That's the problem with the players. They think because Fehr won against the MLB, the same will happen with them. He is leading them off a cliff.

FissionFire 10-29-2012 08:53 PM

The difference is that MLB players have far more leverage in negotiations. There is a vast difference in the amount of money a team stands to lose from a lost MLB season. Because of their huge TV deals and raiding the pockets of Boston, LA, New York, etc. with overbearing revenue sharing payroll taxes every MLB team is profitable. When you as an owner stand to lose millions of dollars if a season isn't played, you are motivated to get a deal done.

NHL is a different animal. Unlike the MLB it's pretty clear that the majority of NHL teams either lose money or make marginal profits at best. Aside from a handful at the top, most owners stand to benefit more from NOT playing a season to force their latest heavy-handed proposal down the unions throat than they do trying to work out something out that won't be quite as good for them. Meanwhile the few teams that do stand to lose money aren't too terribly motivated to use the union plan as a starting point since it would essentially create a welfare system where they are forced to pay even larger sums of money into the teams that are lagging in revenues. Since the profitable teams tend to also have the most influence among the BoG and by that means Bettman it's nearly impossible to force a plan like that down their throats without their consent, which is likely never coming without some type of majot concessions to give them an out just like the revenue growth clauses and such stuff in the last CBA. So instead of trying to fight the big pocket teams over getting more of the pie, it's easier for all the owners to get together and just demand the players give them more. That's a far easier target with much less leverage than trying to have the smaller, less profitable teams try to end run the bigger, profitable teams. Most of these owners can afford to miss an entire season, or two. Or 5. Whatever it takes to get their way since hockey revenues are in no way a significant portion of their wealth and income, unlike say MLB or NFL owners who can essentially live off their revenue sharing and television money.

With all that in mind, the Winter Classic has always been the big leverage tipping point for the union to get a season done this year. That's the crown jewel of the regular season and is wildly profitable for the league. Once that's cancelled the owners have less incentive to be flexibile in negotiations this year or even next year. I think the owners would be very content with missing not only 1 season, but 2 seasons if they had to. I don't think the players are in that same position. Once the WC is cancelled I think the NHLPA will slowly start to become more and more desperate to get something done over time while the owners likely will not budge much at all from their position until the players cave. Fehr or no Fehr, this isn't a battle he can win with hardline tactics. His best scenario is getting a season going ASAP, getting to a point where all teams are making money, and then parlaying that leverage into the next CBA negotiations when suddenly the owners will be more inclined to get a season started. Right now he's pretty much finding out the hard way that when enough teams aren't profitable, the only real option the union has in negotiations is not to decide whether or not to bend over and take it, but rather how long to do it for.

RedWingsNow* 10-29-2012 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 (Post 55385839)
That play with the MLBPA only works once.

That's the problem with the players. They think because Fehr won against the MLB, the same will happen with them. He is leading them off a cliff.

Loird.

The "problem" with the players is that they think they might not have to bend over?

How rich is your knowledge of collective bargaining?


You know that working class unions have taken on billionaires and won, right?

So why is it so hard to image that the PA, with millionaire members, could do the same?

I'm not saying the PA is going to come out of this smelling like roses. But the idea that the PA automatically loses just seems really narrow-minded.

WingedWheel1987 10-29-2012 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bob (Post 55386301)
Loird.

The "problem" with the players is that they think they might not have to bend over?

How rich is your knowledge of collective bargaining?


You know that working class unions have taken on billionaires and won, right?

So why is it so hard to image that the PA, with millionaire members, could do the same?

I'm not saying the PA is going to come out of this smelling like roses. But the idea that the PA automatically loses just seems really narrow-minded.

I dont really think it's fair to lump in pro sports unions with other unions that have collectively bargained. When you have auto unions fighting for enough pay to put food on the table, it makes it very difficult for the corporation/owners to win. Also unions outside of pro sports is a very different animal since the companies rely on the workers to make their money. The owners in the NHL dont rely on the players/team to make their living.

Owners own pro sports teams as a tax shelter and so they can stroke their ego's. Players need the owners to make a livelihood. (KHL/Europe is an empty threat) Owners dont need the players to the same extent. They can wait out the players until they get the deal that they are OK with.

I am not being narrow minded. I just realize that the players have zero leverage. Look at the NFL and NBA. Did the players win? Nope, but the owners allowed them to spin it as a win to save face. That's all the players can hope to achieve. Accept the 50/50 proposal and ask for some minor tweaks that the owners will more than likely accept and start making millions of dollars again.

Owners are cancelling the Winter Classic to reinforce just how much they dont care about the season. They are sending a message to the players to accept a deal quickly or lose even more money. Do i like it? Of course not, but it is what it is.

RedWingsNow* 10-29-2012 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FissionFire (Post 55385877)
The difference is that MLB players have far more leverage in negotiations. There is a vast difference in the amount of money a team stands to lose from a lost MLB season. Because of their huge TV deals and raiding the pockets of Boston, LA, New York, etc. with overbearing revenue sharing payroll taxes every MLB team is profitable. When you as an owner stand to lose millions of dollars if a season isn't played, you are motivated to get a deal done.

NHL is a different animal. Unlike the MLB it's pretty clear that the majority of NHL teams either lose money or make marginal profits at best. Aside from a handful at the top, most owners stand to benefit more from NOT playing a season to force their latest heavy-handed proposal down the unions throat than they do trying to work out something out that won't be quite as good for them. Meanwhile the few teams that do stand to lose money aren't too terribly motivated to use the union plan as a starting point since it would essentially create a welfare system where they are forced to pay even larger sums of money into the teams that are lagging in revenues. Since the profitable teams tend to also have the most influence among the BoG and by that means Bettman it's nearly impossible to force a plan like that down their throats without their consent, which is likely never coming without some type of majot concessions to give them an out just like the revenue growth clauses and such stuff in the last CBA. So instead of trying to fight the big pocket teams over getting more of the pie, it's easier for all the owners to get together and just demand the players give them more. That's a far easier target with much less leverage than trying to have the smaller, less profitable teams try to end run the bigger, profitable teams. Most of these owners can afford to miss an entire season, or two. Or 5. Whatever it takes to get their way since hockey revenues are in no way a significant portion of their wealth and income, unlike say MLB or NFL owners who can essentially live off their revenue sharing and television money.

With all that in mind, the Winter Classic has always been the big leverage tipping point for the union to get a season done this year. That's the crown jewel of the regular season and is wildly profitable for the league. Once that's cancelled the owners have less incentive to be flexibile in negotiations this year or even next year. I think the owners would be very content with missing not only 1 season, but 2 seasons if they had to. I don't think the players are in that same position. Once the WC is cancelled I think the NHLPA will slowly start to become more and more desperate to get something done over time while the owners likely will not budge much at all from their position until the players cave. Fehr or no Fehr, this isn't a battle he can win with hardline tactics. His best scenario is getting a season going ASAP, getting to a point where all teams are making money, and then parlaying that leverage into the next CBA negotiations when suddenly the owners will be more inclined to get a season started. Right now he's pretty much finding out the hard way that when enough teams aren't profitable, the only real option the union has in negotiations is not to decide whether or not to bend over and take it, but rather how long to do it for.

I agree with much of what you say around NHL owner politics.
However, I think the Fehr is ready to test the owners',
If he's on a missing against salary caps in the pro-leagues, as many have suggested, I think the NHL is the perfect place for him to test his mettle before going up against the big boys.

I personally am rooting for the owners to get their ***** whooped. Not because the PA is underpaid. Not because the owners are making too much money.

But because someone has to teach the NHL that lockouts don't always go your way. Or we're going to see another bad one in 5 to 7 years.


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