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-   -   Rodney Dangerfield of the Pens (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1277427)

wgknestrick 10-30-2012 11:59 AM

Rodney Dangerfield of the Pens
 
Most of the Penguin fan base likes to bad mouth a great young forward/wing they already have. This player continually gets "no respect" from average fans for what he has done in his relatively short career.

This forward however:

-Scored at a top 6 level (>1.6 pts / 60min ice time) for the last 4 years
-Never posted a negative +- season in his career
-Scored even strength points at a higher rate (per ice time) than the following players in 2012.

Niklas Backstrom
Bobby Ryan
Igilna
Jagr
Skinner
Kovalchuk
Selanne
E Staal
Nash

Can anyone name this unsung PIT player?

Ugene Malkin 10-30-2012 12:04 PM

TK...

ColePens 10-30-2012 12:28 PM

Could it be Dupers? If it is.. he got mega praise for his year last season. He was unreal.

edit: I took short career as meaning w/ the Pens.

Shady Machine 10-30-2012 12:48 PM

It's Tyler Kennedy and your stats don't make him any better than he is. He is a great third line winger and can be plugged into a top 6 occasionally, but he is definitely not what I would define as "great young forward".

cassius 10-30-2012 01:03 PM

Pascal Dupuis - easily... if you want some good humor, go read some threads from a few years ago. Some folks suggested that guys like Janne Pesonen would be an upgrade over Dupuis and that we should trade him for scraps.

Since then? Dupuis has continued to surpass expectations and he's the best bargain in the league on a raw cap hit basis. The guy gets no respect whatsoever despite his contributions at both ends of the rink.

It was a lot of fun watching his game blossom last year - it was a wakeup call to the folks who have unfairly derided him for the past few years.

Ugene Malkin 10-30-2012 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wgknestrick (Post 55396699)
Most of the Penguin fan base likes to bad mouth a great young forward/wing they already have. This player continually gets "no respect" from average fans for what he has done in his relatively short career.

This forward however:

-Scored at a top 6 level (>1.6 pts / 60min ice time) for the last 4 years
-Never posted a negative +- season in his career
-Scored even strength points at a higher rate (per ice time) than the following players in 2012.

Niklas Backstrom
Bobby Ryan
Igilna
Jagr
Skinner
Kovalchuk
Selanne
E Staal
Nash

Can anyone name this unsung PIT player?

I must bold the obvious. If it's Dupuis, he has totally ruined his point.

ColePens 10-30-2012 01:38 PM

I've been fighting in honor of Dupers for awhile now. The only time he looked expendable is when TK started tearing it up. But... TK really had a down year and Dupers keeps being mr. consistency. Can't complain about #9. He will go down as one of our unsung heroes for a long time.

wgknestrick 10-30-2012 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin (Post 55398245)
I must bold the obvious. If it's Dupuis, he has totally ruined his point.

Dupers is a good guess, but it's TK

Just want to try to start momentum of appreciating this player more. He is a great player that is cheap, and has a great work ethic on every shift. He is the top 6 forward the Pens need and has produced at a high level for a considerable amount of time.

I do not understand why he does not get more ice time from the coaching staff (esp PP time on the #2 PP). I sure know the Pens do not have anyone close to replacing his production near his current cap hit. I hope he doesn't become the next Scuderi (who was never really appreciated by this team until he was gone).

Note that I love Duppers, but expect him to plummet back down to standard Duper levels from his incredible last season. I think TK can steadily improve given his work ethic, skills, and age.

Antaris 10-30-2012 01:41 PM

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1o8k1blbg1qklal2.gif


Not an unsung hero though.

He's loved and we all know what's he's capable of. I loved the fact that he tore it up last season. I hope he can do it again.

BlindWillyMcHurt 10-30-2012 01:49 PM

Not trying to rain on your parade but I thought Kennedy was largely awful last year. I actually thought he looked worse when they tried putting him with better players. He's just a little bit too much of a tunnel-visioned, chest-sniping spaz to play an effective role in the top six. I would comment on his playmaking ability but he doesn't try it often enough to judge.

I did appreciate the fact that he was one of the few to bring it in the postseason, though. And I do agree that he probably gets yanked around a little too much to find much chemistry. His level of compete is also undeniable... though often unfocused.

Shady Machine 10-30-2012 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt (Post 55399383)
Not trying to rain on your parade but I thought Kennedy was largely awful last year. I actually thought he looked worse when they tried putting him with better players. He's just a little bit too much of a tunnel-visioned, chest-sniping spaz to play an effective role in the top six. I would comment on his playmaking ability but he doesn't try it often enough to judge.

I did appreciate the fact that he was one of the few to bring it in the postseason, though. And I do agree that he probably gets yanked around a little too much to find much chemistry. His level of compete is also undeniable... though often unfocused.

This about sums up my opinion of TK.

wgknestrick 10-30-2012 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antaris (Post 55399187)
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1o8k1blbg1qklal2.gif


Not an unsung hero though.

He's loved and we all know what's he's capable of. I loved the fact that he tore it up last season. I hope he can do it again.

http://briefwit.files.wordpress.com/...pg?w=455&h=341

Quote:

-Never posted a negative +- season in his career

Crafton 10-30-2012 01:55 PM

just going to reiterate what's already been said. the two likely candidates are Tyler 'lickin' stick' Kennedy and Pascal 'the rascal' Dupuis and neither could be considered under appreciated, let alone the Rodney Dangerfield of the pens.

edit: i'm so ****ing late on this. here's a Rodney making Leno squirm like the invertebrate he is.


Darth Vitale 10-30-2012 01:57 PM

I appreciate Chest Snipe Kennedy and his "charge down the wall and fire" skills. He is so under-appreciated in fact, I hope the coaches permanently put him on Sid's line until he ****s up enough scoring chances that even his most die-hard fans admit they are wrong about him and demand a trade. :laugh:

"Great young forward"... dry that one out and... you know the rest. No one questions his effort or speed, but take him off the 3rd line more than occasionally and that effort isn't enough for him to do the job that's required. Sometimes both legitimate skill and vision are required as compliments to the hustle, in order for a player to do well in a Top 6 roll on a consistent basis. He's made some great plays here and there but he does not possess that level of skill and vision on the whole. SOrry, he just doesn't. I don't know how many games people have to watch before they'll allow themselves to believe it. The "Pittsburgh Underdog Gritty Guy Syndrome" has some of you and won't let go / let you reason. ;)

wgknestrick 10-30-2012 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt (Post 55399383)
Not trying to rain on your parade but I thought Kennedy was largely awful last year. I actually thought he looked worse when they tried putting him with better players. He's just a little bit too much of a tunnel-visioned, chest-sniping spaz to play an effective role in the top six. I would comment on his playmaking ability but he doesn't try it often enough to judge.

I did appreciate the fact that he was one of the few to bring it in the postseason, though. And I do agree that he probably gets yanked around a little too much to find much chemistry. His level of compete is also undeniable... though often unfocused.

:shakehead Sole reason for this thread. It doesn't matter what he "looked" like to you. He produces. It must mean that you are "looking" at the wrong things. I see a player that controls the puck well in the corners and puts it on net at every opportunity. I view these at good attributes no matter what.

Hard to put "awful" in the same sentence as a player who can score more 5v5 points in a given amount of time then the players below.

Niklas Backstrom
Bobby Ryan
Igilna
Jagr
Skinner
Kovalchuk
Selanne
E Staal
Nash

Just saying that the above players get tons of respect, but a player that scores at a higher 5v5 rate can't get it? Doesn't make much sense to me.

BlindWillyMcHurt 10-30-2012 02:17 PM

Well... stats can be broken down and parsed in many, many ways to suit a person's narrative. I've seen plenty of Kennedy over the last four years (or longer) and I don't feel like his game has evolved too much. If you feel like he's the missing piece our top six lacks... more power to you... and him. But I simply don't agree. Not to denigrate your statistical analysis... but I trust my eyes much, much more.

Kennedy is a fine enough player in his own right. I thought I was pretty generous with my assessment, honestly. I don't really think it is a good thing if a player tosses the puck at the net in any given situation. In some ways... I think it's a systemic problem with the entire team. But that might be another topic for another time.

You're more than entitled to your opinion, of course. But I don't see Kennedy as an under appreciated player. I think he's largely regarded by fans as exactly what he is. A decent bottom sixer who can sometimes fill in on the top lines in a pinch with a nice set of wheels and great hustle.

Shady Machine 10-30-2012 03:22 PM

Some players do well in limited roles. You can't just pick a stat like ES 5 on 5 scoring over 60 min period and act like that is the measure of performance they would continue to have if given more ice time. IMO, TK thrives in a 3rd line role because he is given far more reign of the puck and play than he would be in a top 6 role with highly skilled players. The 3rd line's primary role is to shut down and chip in offense where they can. TK is great in that role.

However, the times I have seen TK with Geno and Sid, he hasn't figured out how to be that complimentary player that lets them lead the play. There have been countless times where he was with Sid on the rush and instead of dishing Sid the puck he had blinders on and chest sniped from the boards. To me that boils down to lack of Hockey IQ, vision, and offensive creativity. I'm not condemning TK for not having these things, just pointing out that IMO he doesn't have the ability to play a top 6 role on the Pens.

M0NTY26 10-30-2012 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wgknestrick (Post 55399811)
:shakehead Sole reason for this thread. It doesn't matter what he "looked" like to you. He produces. It must mean that you are "looking" at the wrong things. I see a player that controls the puck well in the corners and puts it on net at every opportunity. I view these at good attributes no matter what.

Hard to put "awful" in the same sentence as a player who can score more 5v5 points in a given amount of time then the players below.

Niklas Backstrom
Bobby Ryan
Igilna
Jagr
Skinner
Kovalchuk
Selanne
E Staal
Nash

Just saying that the above players get tons of respect, but a player that scores at a higher 5v5 rate can't get it? Doesn't make much sense to me.

This is a stupid comparison because the team as a whole was one of the most potent in the league, while all the other teams, minus the Flyers, were bottom dwellers. If you put TK on any of those teams, he isn't out producing them. Stats are nice, but they don't tell the story of a player. Kennedy is good when he's in a grinder role, but outside of that element, he hurts the offense more than he helps it, regardless of the picture you're trying to paint. Offensive creativity dies as soon as he touches the puck, because he doesn't have any vision out there other than, "holy ****, the pucks on my stick, I must shoot!".

How 'bout this stat. He ranked 5th on our team last year for shots taken, but landed 16th on his shooting percentage. The only players that had a lower shooting percentage than him were Engelland, Orpik, Despres, Nisky, Michalek, Martin, and Lovejoy. A 33 point player should NEVER have the word great associated with him, ever.

Ugene Malkin 10-30-2012 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shady Machine (Post 55401983)
Some players do well in limited roles. You can't just pick a stat like ES 5 on 5 scoring over 60 min period and act like that is the measure of performance they would continue to have if given more ice time. IMO, TK thrives in a 3rd line role because he is given far more reign of the puck and play than he would be in a top 6 role with highly skilled players. The 3rd line's primary role is to shut down and chip in offense where they can. TK is great in that role.

However, the times I have seen TK with Geno and Sid, he hasn't figured out how to be that complimentary player that lets them lead the play. There have been countless times where he was with Sid on the rush and instead of dishing Sid the puck he had blinders on and chest sniped from the boards. To me that boils down to lack of Hockey IQ, vision, and offensive creativity. I'm not condemning TK for not having these things, just pointing out that IMO he doesn't have the ability to play a top 6 role on the Pens.

The part about not dishing off to Sid was bang on. I remember Sid being pissed on a couple of occasions with a pretty mad smirk on his face coming to the bench.:laugh:

Is it me or is the give and go nonexistent with this team. I mean it does happen, but when it does it's like a party eruption because, it's so rare anymore. TK could have easily done this with Sid on a few occasions.

Warm Cookies 10-30-2012 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wgknestrick (Post 55399811)
:shakehead Sole reason for this thread. It doesn't matter what he "looked" like to you. He produces. It must mean that you are "looking" at the wrong things. I see a player that controls the puck well in the corners and puts it on net at every opportunity. I view these at good attributes no matter what.

Hard to put "awful" in the same sentence as a player who can score more 5v5 points in a given amount of time then the players below.

Niklas Backstrom
Bobby Ryan
Igilna
Jagr
Skinner
Kovalchuk
Selanne
E Staal
Nash

Just saying that the above players get tons of respect, but a player that scores at a higher 5v5 rate can't get it? Doesn't make much sense to me.

I like TK as much as anyone, but Pascal Dupuis scored at a better pace 5v5/60 minutes last year than Claude Giroux.

That should say everything we need to know about evaluating players based on that stat alone. There's scoring well with limited opportunity, and then there's scoring well when put into a regular role as a go-to scorer. I don't think TK has shown the sort of offensive awareness to suggest he would thrive in a top 6 role, making plays with creative teammates.

Ogrezilla 10-30-2012 10:52 PM

Tyler Kennedy is a pretty good depth scorer.

Jules Winnfield 10-30-2012 11:16 PM

I despise TK. I find him as being the type of player that has low hockey IQ. Crosby has even joked that he plays with TK, TK won't pass the puck and will shoot no matter what.

I wouldn't nearly have as much issue with TK if he had somehow evolved his game over the past few years. He's the same hustle on the right wing and circle around the net to take a shot on the left side player he's been the past few years. I've been wanting to see him use that hustle to be a defensive demon in our own zone also but it's never happened.

Stecz 10-31-2012 06:08 AM

If you look at TK during the injury crisis a couple of seasons ago, he proved that he has more hockey IQ and playmaking ability than he regularly shows in his normal role. I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that his patented chest snipe is related to Bylsma's desire to get as many shots on net as possible. The few times he's been given a shot at a top 6 spot, he's been pretty decent, I think, but hasn't stuck for whatever reason, be that injury or someone else returning from injury.

Milliardo 10-31-2012 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stecz (Post 55416019)
If you look at TK during the injury crisis a couple of seasons ago, he proved that he has more hockey IQ and playmaking ability than he regularly shows in his normal role. I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that his patented chest snipe is related to Bylsma's desire to get as many shots on net as possible. The few times he's been given a shot at a top 6 spot, he's been pretty decent, I think, but hasn't stuck for whatever reason, be that injury or someone else returning from injury.

Yes, that's pretty much how I see it. I hope we give him a try, I mean it's not like we don't know where to put all of our many top 6 wingers.

Shady Machine 10-31-2012 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stecz (Post 55416019)
If you look at TK during the injury crisis a couple of seasons ago, he proved that he has more hockey IQ and playmaking ability than he regularly shows in his normal role. I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that his patented chest snipe is related to Bylsma's desire to get as many shots on net as possible. The few times he's been given a shot at a top 6 spot, he's been pretty decent, I think, but hasn't stuck for whatever reason, be that injury or someone else returning from injury.

If our second line center was Jordan Staal, I might agree. But, he hasn't shown any chemistry or ability to read plays on the level it takes to play with Sid and Geno. Even Staal last season began growing out of his role with TK IMO. I might be wrong, I just don't see much more there. That said, I'm fine giving him the opportunity. We all know Tangradi likely won't be in the top 6 and the other option is Jeffrey, so TK may get his opportunity.


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