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-   -   Proposal: Van-Tor-Wsh (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1281745)

MW6 11-10-2012 03:05 PM

Van-Tor-Wsh
 
I'm going to start of saying that I'm a Caps fan, and I've been trying to figure out a way for all the three involved teams to get the most bang for the buck while helping eachother out. Meaning I think it's useless for teams to have a player riding the bench while getting paid to be a contributer on one team when he, or the capspace that comes with him, might acctually make a difference on another.

I have also looked at needs within the organisation and tried to fill the holes to IMO make all of them as competitive as possible. Although I obviously want the Caps to come out ahead, I think this should make all teams better. I may not be totally accurate on who plays on which position, but the following lines look pretty OK to me.

Keep in mind that while downgrading on one position, the capspace created might allow an upgrade on a more important position. If you feel I'm out of line, please be constructive on why it isn't fair, or what might be a better solution.

:nucks.............................:leafs.............................:caps
Clarke MacArthur.................Marcus Johansson.........................Tyler Bozak
Matthew Lombardi...............Roberto Luongo.............................Nikolai Kulemin
Mathieu Perreault.................Joel Ward.....................................Keith Ballard
Jesse Blacker.......................Andrew Alberts.............................Mason Raymond
Jeff Schultz

Vancouver recieves:...................Vancouver gives:
Clarke MacArthur...........................Roberto Luongo
Matthew Lombardi.........................Mason Raymond
Jesse Blacker................................Andrew Alberts
Jeff Schultz..................................Keith Ballard
Mathieu Perreault

Caphit: $12,070,000......................$13,033,333

Comments: Vancouver unloads Luongo's and Ballard's overpaid contracts (for their current roles on the team, back-up to-be(?) and bottom-pair D), saves $1,5M in capspace this year and a lot more going forward and while strengthening their top-9. They add Lombardi to play 3C and MacArthur to play on the 2nd or 3rd line. Jeff Schultz will battle for a roster spot on their bottom pair. Lack seems ready to back up Schneider and Perreault gives them some cheap depth to play up and down the lines. Raymond seems to be slated for the bottom-6 and isn't a integral piece anymore. Blacker is NHL-ready, but atleast re-stocks Vancouver's not very strong cupboard of prospects. Neither of the players leaving should halter the Canucks Win-now chances.

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Booth-Kesler-MacArthur
Higgins-Lombardi-Hansen
Lapierre-Malhotra-Kassian
Perreault-Wise

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Edler-Garrison
Schultz-Tanev
Blacker

Schneider-Lack

Toronto recieves:.......................Toronto gives:
Roberto Luongo............................Matthew Lombardi
Marcus Johansson.........................Tyler Bozak
Joel Ward.....................................Nikolai Kulemin
Andrew Alberts.............................Clarke MacArthur
..................................................Jesse Blacker

Caphit: $10,458,333.....................$11,920,000

Comments: Toronto finally get their no.1 goalie, they add a young fast center with 1C potential that can easily play wing on the second line if not ready. Joel Ward, who was not given the right oppurtunities in Washington, solidifies the 3rd line and their specialteams, and Andrew Alberts is a 5-7 D-man with some snarl on a cheap contract. To get those 2 pieces (1G and maybe 1C) they have to sacrifice some of their depth on the wing. 3 UFA-to-be's (Lombardi, MacArthur and Bozak) are heading out, Kulemin although skilled and powerful had a horrible last year and could benefit from a change of scenary and Blacker is stuck behind all the depth on D in Toronto. They also save $1,5M in capspace.

Lupul-Johansson-Kessel
Van Riemsdyk-Grabovski-Connolly
Frattin-McClement-Ward
Komarov-Steckel-Brown
Kadri-Colborne

Gunnarsson-Phaneuf
Gardiner-Liles
Alberts-Komisarek
Holzer

Luongo-Reimer

Washington recieves:.................Washington gives:
Tyler Bozak..................................Marcus Johansson
Nikolai Kulemin.............................Mathieu Perreault
Mason Raymond...........................Joel Ward
Keith Ballard................................Jeff Schultz

Caphit: $10,775,000.....................$7,700,000

Comments: While losing their future 2C and adding $3M in caphit with an uncertainty of how the capceiling is going to look moving forward, the Caps also create a better balance between their lines and have players playing up to their paygrades. Bozak allows Laich to play where he belongs as 2LW, Kulemin should be a really good compliment to Ovechkin and Backstrom, Raymond brings even more speed and skill to the third line and should benefit from a new surrounding. Ballard could also revive his carrer from getting top-4 minutes playing alongside Mike Green and allow the ageing Hamrlik to play sheltered minutes on the third pair while mentoring Orlov. Jeff Schultz has run out of favours in Washington and is making way to much to be sitting in the pressbox. Ward is very solid but didn't get the same opportunities as in Nashville and might be better used in Toronto. Perreault was promised top-6 minutes before re-signing, but is stuck behind 5-6 wingers and and isn't a top-2C in Washington.

Ovechkin-Backstrom-Kulemin
Laich-Ribeiro-Brouwer
Chimera-Bozak-Raymond
Hendricks-Beagle-Crabb
Wolski-Hamill

Alzner-Carlson
Ballard-Green
Hamrlik-Orlov
Erskine

Holtby-Neuvirth

The Podium 11-10-2012 03:08 PM

I dont think Vancouver is getting enough for Luongo and i dont like the deal from Washington's POV, but then again i could be wrong. I like it from Toronto's POV.

Vankiller Whale 11-10-2012 03:12 PM

So we give up Luongo + a load of "meh" and get even more "meh"?

Macarthur is an overpayed tweener upcoming UFA, Lombardi is a certified cap dump, Blacker is a B prospect, and Schultz is Schultz. Perreault is somewhat intriguing, but the way I see it from Vancouver's POV is:

Ballard = Schultz
Raymond = Macarthur(Raymond cheaper and better defensively, Macarthur slightly better offensively)
Lombardi = negative value
Luongo > Perreault + Blacker

It looks to me like the deal favours Toronto by a fair bit.

ottawa* 11-10-2012 03:12 PM

So let me get this straight...

Toronto receives:
Luongo (elite goalie)
Marcus Johansson (22yo center with great upside)
Andrew Alberts (4th-5th D)
Joel Ward

And Toronto gives:
Tyler Bozak (Coming off a disappointing season)
Nikolai Kulemin (Coming off a disappointing season)
Clarke MacArthur (Coming off a disappointing season)
Jesse Blacker (mid-level prospect)


Any other scraps Toronto wants to get rid of?? Might as well give Jeff Finger away too

Leafs For Life* 11-10-2012 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottawa (Post 55670129)
So let me get this straight...

Toronto receives:
Luongo (elite goalie)
Marcus Johansson (22yo center with great upside)
Andrew Alberts (4th-5th D)
Joel Ward

And Toronto gives:
Tyler Bozak (Coming off a disappointing season)
Nikolai Kulemin (Coming off a disappointing season)
Clarke MacArthur (Coming off a disappointing season)
Jesse Blacker (mid-level prospect)


Any other scraps Toronto wants to get rid of?? Might as well give Jeff Finger away too

Bozak didn't have a dissapointing season, and CMac was affected by Kulemin.
Luongo-contract+decline+choker+skilled.
Johansson-Not Great upside, but good.
Alberts-6th/7th. Nice try.
Ward-Nothing. Exactly.

Kulemin=Johansson
Luongo>=Bozak+Blacker(Would rather switch Blacker to Ashton)
CMac>>Alberts+Ward

Vankiller Whale 11-10-2012 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leaffan16 (Post 55670337)
Bozak didn't have a dissapointing season, and CMac was affected by Kulemin.
Luongo-contract+decline+choker+skilled.
Johansson-Not Great upside, but good.
Alberts-6th/7th. Nice try.
Ward-Nothing. Exactly.

Kulemin=Johansson
Luongo>=Bozak+Blacker(Would rather switch Blacker to Ashton)
CMac>>Alberts+Ward

Johansson > Kulemin
Luongo >>(heck I'll throw in another)> Bozak + Blacker
Macarthur > Ward + Alberts

Reverend Mayhem 11-10-2012 03:35 PM

Rather unnecessary trade with unnecessary parts IMO. But thanks for getting creative.

LEAFS FAN 4 EVER 11-10-2012 03:37 PM

The players Toronto would get looks good from their point of view. However I can't see Vancouver or Washington agreeing to make this trade based on what they would get in return.

ottawa* 11-10-2012 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leaffan16 (Post 55670337)
Bozak didn't have a dissapointing season, and CMac was affected by Kulemin.
Luongo-contract+decline+choker+skilled.
Johansson-Not Great upside, but good.

Alberts-6th/7th. Nice try.
Ward-Nothing. Exactly.

Kulemin=Johansson
Luongo>=Bozak+Blacker(Would rather switch Blacker to Ashton)
CMac>>Alberts+Ward

Bozak might have had an okay season but he is definitely not a top line player and barely a top 6 at times and washington needs that especially with Semin gone. Macarthurs stock rose when he hit 62 points and dropped last season as did Kulemins when he hit 30 goals 2 seasons ago then hit 7 last season...I don't know why you're throwing these scraps into this trade since the other teams won't want them for what they're giving up.

And by the way, Johansson has great upside you clearly have not watched him play enough times, he's only 22 and already playing as a top 6 and getting better. Also how is Luongo on the decline? his numbers are consistent and he's only 33 which isn't that old for a goalie. And as for him being a choker, that line is absolutely played out and I don't even like Luongo lol...I bet you're one of the people who was calling him a choker in the playoffs after he got replaced by Schneider...I dislike Luongo as much as the next guy but Luongo played a great series but the 5 players in front of him just didn't show up to play.

Either way, and every non-leafs fan (and the few honest leafs fans) would agree that the Leafs are giving up scraps for much better talent. Give something of value (i.e. players who didn't disappoint last season) and maybe this trade would be more fair to Van-Wsh

Reverend Mayhem 11-10-2012 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER (Post 55670689)
The players Toronto would get looks good from their point of view. However I can't see Vancouver or Washington agreeing to make this trade based on what they would get in return.

Cool, someone that is reasonable.

sparxx87 11-10-2012 03:47 PM

You sure you're a caps fan?

ottawa* 11-10-2012 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparxx87 (Post 55670857)
You sure you're a caps fan?

Lol I just saw that after you pointed it out. I could have sworn he was a Leafs fan based on the proposal.

OP, as a caps fan I don't understand how you are willing to get rid of Johansson and take on underachieving forwards such as Bozak and Kulemin and overpaid forwards such as Raymond and Ballard to replace not only Johansson but also Semin. The caps' offense would take a hit next season

Tor----Wsh
Tyler Bozak..................................Marcus Johansson
Nikolai Kulemin.............................Mathieu Perreault
Mason Raymond...........................Joel Ward
Keith Ballard................................Jeff Schultz

Sorry but looks to me as though the caps lose this one by taking on cap and replacing a talented young player and Semin with those 4.

Moore Money 11-10-2012 04:01 PM

So the Leafs get the two best players while giving up the least..? I have a feeling you're a Leafs fan in disguise.

MW6 11-10-2012 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottawa (Post 55670947)
Lol I just saw that after you pointed it out. I could have sworn he was a Leafs fan based on the proposal.

OP, as a caps fan I don't understand how you are willing to get rid of Johansson and take on underachieving forwards such as Bozak and Kulemin and overpaid forwards such as Raymond and Ballard to replace not only Johansson but also Semin. The caps' offense would take a hit next season

Tor----Wsh
Tyler Bozak..................................Marcus Johansson
Nikolai Kulemin.............................Mathieu Perreault
Mason Raymond...........................Joel Ward
Keith Ballard................................Jeff Schultz

Sorry but looks to me as though the caps lose this one by taking on cap and replacing a talented young player and Semin with those 4.

Johansson might be the best player, or atleast become the best player, yes!
BUT, like I wrote if you get a lesser player on one position if might bump a few others still making you come out ahead!
Kulemin will bounce back and should put up numbers atleast similar to Johansson's and complements the first line a lot better with his physicality and netpresence more than Johansson.
Bozak isn't asked to produce more then he normally does ~40 pts, as a 3C, which is what Johansson scored as a top-6 player last season. Raymond should be counted for more points than Ward and Laich's production will surely rise again from playing 2LW with a great playmaker in Ribeiro instead of 3C.

Semin was already gone, and I think the organization are counting on Ribeiro to make up for what they lose from not re-signing Semin, not Johansson.

Vankiller Whale 11-10-2012 04:17 PM

So why not just trade Bozak + Kulemin for Johansson + Ward or something and leave Vancouver out?

MW6 11-10-2012 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 55671383)
So why not just trade Bozak + Kulemin for Johansson + Ward or something and leave Vancouver out?

Because those aren't the only holes I'm trying to plug. The Caps don't have the right pieces to spend to get the other two players or can't spare players Vancouver would want, IMO. Toronto does and that's why I involved all three teams.

Vankiller Whale 11-10-2012 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MW6 (Post 55671831)
Because those aren't the only holes I'm trying to plug. The Caps don't have the right pieces to spend to get the other two players or can't spare players Vancouver would want, IMO. Toronto does and that's why I involved all three teams.

I'd trade you Raymond + Ballard for a 1st.

ottawa* 11-10-2012 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MW6 (Post 55671321)
Johansson might be the best player, or atleast become the best player, yes!
BUT, like I wrote if you get a lesser player on one position if might bump a few others still making you come out ahead!
Kulemin will bounce back and should put up numbers atleast similar to Johansson's and complements the first line a lot better with his physicality and netpresence more than Johansson.
Bozak isn't asked to produce more then he normally does ~40 pts, as a 3C, which is what Johansson scored as a top-6 player last season. Raymond should be counted for more points than Ward and Laich's production will surely rise again from playing 2LW with a great playmaker in Ribeiro instead of 3C.

Semin was already gone, and I think the organization are counting on Ribeiro to make up for what they lose from not re-signing Semin, not Johansson.

Oh yeah, I forgot you guys acquired Ribeiro. And you need to keep in mind Bozak is 26 and he's a 40 point player. Johansson is only 22 and he'll be going into his 3rd season and he already appears to be a guy who's a lock for at least 40 points a year minimum, no doubt in my mind he'll surpass 50 next season and the ones after that. As for Kulemin, he's been a 30 point guy 3/4 seasons and he hid 62 points (30 goals) once in his career. As a habs fan living in Ottawa I've seen Kulemin play often against MTL or OTT and he doesn't strike me as a 50-60 guy which is something Johansson appears to be turning into.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 55671383)
So why not just trade Bozak + Kulemin for Johansson + Ward or something and leave Vancouver out?

NO...Vancouver must suffer

PierreMcGuire* 11-10-2012 04:47 PM

Too many parts moving. Canucks get a terrible return for Luongo. Leafs get the two best players in the deal in Luongo and Johansson.

Great for the Leafs, not great for the Capitals, and pretty bad for the Canucks.

MW6 11-10-2012 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 55671877)
I'd trade you Raymond + Ballard for a 1st.

That would give the Caps 9 defenders on one-way contracts, plus it would press them up against the caproof.

Vankiller Whale 11-10-2012 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MW6 (Post 55671987)
That would give the Caps 9 defenders on one-way contracts, plus it would press them up against the caproof.

You could send Schultz our way if you wanted, I guess.

Seatoo 11-10-2012 04:57 PM

It's an easy no from Vancouvers POV. Giving up a #1 goalie, our #5 Dman who is finally showing upside, our #7 Dman, a middle six forward for basically 2 pending UFAs/Cap dumps a B prospect and a long term project. I'm sorry but the value is horrible, but good effort.

From a Canucks fan's pov this is like if we offered Raymond, Malhotra, Sauve and Rodin for alexander ovechkin.

MW6 11-10-2012 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottawa (Post 55671963)
Oh yeah, I forgot you guys acquired Ribeiro. And you need to keep in mind Bozak is 26 and he's a 40 point player. Johansson is only 22 and he'll be going into his 3rd season and he already appears to be a guy who's a lock for at least 40 points a year minimum, no doubt in my mind he'll surpass 50 next season and the ones after that. As for Kulemin, he's been a 30 point guy 3/4 seasons and he hid 62 points (30 goals) once in his career. As a habs fan living in Ottawa I've seen Kulemin play often against MTL or OTT and he doesn't strike me as a 50-60 guy which is something Johansson appears to be turning into.

Kulemin has intangibles that Johansson doesn't have, and of course the other way around too. To me the ones possessed by Kulemin would fit best on the Caps first line which is where Johansson has played and probably is slotted to play. And if the difference is -10/15 pts but it makes Ovechkin surpass 40-40 again then I'll take Kulemin over Johansson.
And a Kulemin playing with Ovechkin and Backstrom should score more than one playing with MacArthur and Grabovksi.
Bozak as 3C scoring 40 pts is perfectly fine by me.

MW6 11-10-2012 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seatoo (Post 55672153)
It's an easy no from Vancouvers POV. Giving up a #1 goalie, our #5 Dman who is finally showing upside, our #7 Dman, a middle six forward for basically 2 pending UFAs/Cap dumps a B prospect and a long term project. I'm sorry but the value is horrible, but good effort.

From a Canucks fan's pov this is like if we offered Raymond, Malhotra, Sauve and Rodin for alexander ovechkin.

Yes, exactly the same....:help:

You can spinn it this way also! Canucks are giving up their "soon to be overpaid back-up on a lifetime contract", their "overpaid-by-$2M-5th-Dman-that only-will-play-top-4-if-someone-get-injured", a third line winger who just has his salary lowered, and their worst D-man

for

a winger that would've been 4th in goals and 5th in scoring of all your forwards, a 3C better than anything they have at the moment, a D-prospect that projects higher than anyone they currently have, a young and cheap C/W who's only outscored by the twins if you look at pts/min and a D that won the league in +/- 3 years ago.

Pyrophorus 11-10-2012 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottawa (Post 55670947)

OP, as a caps fan I don't understand how you are willing to get rid of Johansson and take on underachieving forwards such as Bozak

So, Bozak who has never scored less than Johansson, had a disappointing season, despite trending upwards in goals in all 3 years.
What does this make Johansson who produces less.

In fact it sounds like Johansson doesn't solve the #1C issue.


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