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-   -   Globe and Mail: Even with locked out NHL..KHL still.... (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1281805)

checkerdome 11-10-2012 05:42 PM

Globe and Mail: Even with locked out NHL..KHL still....
 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle5175535/

"Alexei Dementiev, a Russian hockey agent and former scout for the Ottawa Senators, is driving like a madman through the notoriously foul Moscow traffic to get us to the arena on time. The Tuesday night game is being billed as a biggie – Dynamo Moscow, featuring locked-out NHL hotshot Alexander Ovechkin, against “Siberia,” the nickname for the Sibir Novosibirsk team."

"In an interview, Malkin, who now plays for Metallurg Magnitogorsk, says “a complex of marketing efforts are needed to summon fans to the stands in Moscow. You see, Moscow offers too many events and amusement and people often simply do not choose hockey.”

"None of the 20 KHL teams in Russia (there are six in other countries) makes a profit. “Hockey in Russia is a social project,” Dementiev says."

Obviously I DIDN'T write this 4 page feature article, so please don't be angry with me.

I just thought KHL fans might want to read about the KHL from different perspectives.

Food for thought, I guess. :yo:

Siberian 11-10-2012 07:05 PM

Typical overly negative article, which was written by many other writers with different words. Majority of negative facts talked in this article is true unfortunately but several ridiculous statements make this article forgettable. The analysis is too shallow, for me it was a waste of time.

malkinfan 11-10-2012 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siberian (Post 55674727)
Typical overly negative article, which was written by many other writers with different words. Majority of negative facts talked in this article is true unfortunately but several ridiculous statements make this article forgettable. The analysis is too shallow, for me it was a waste of time.

The NA articles often are like this, most of the time the writer is horribly misinformed. I always leave comments to complain.. Stupid mistakes like the MHL is the AHL of the KHL and things of this nature. Its like - if your a professional writer who is going to give such a strong opinion for a well read magazine, why don't you put more than 5 minutes of research into your paper?... Often the opinions and statements on this board contain more credibility and professionalism...

Hockeysemin 11-10-2012 08:37 PM

here is a swedish article of KHL. Interview with Tony Martensson who enjoy life in KHL. Use google translate

http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportblade...cle15748214.ab

kajoo 11-11-2012 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by preissingg (Post 55672867)
"None of the 20 KHL teams in Russia (there are six in other countries) makes a profit. “Hockey in Russia is a social project,” Dementiev says."

Neither sports in Europe makes profit, thats european way of doing sports. And I see nothing wrong with it, club owners put their money down the toilett while making money elsewhere, owning club is matter of prestige, leisure activity for them. I doubt there is any sports in Europe that is capable of making profit.

SoundAndFury 11-11-2012 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kajoo (Post 55683653)
Neither sports in Europe makes profit, thats european way of doing sports. And I see nothing wrong with it, club owners put their money down the toilett while making money elsewhere, owning club is matter of prestige, leisure activity for them. I doubt there is any sports in Europe that is capable of making profit.

Football is definitely profitable if you do things the right way.

kajoo 11-11-2012 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoundAndFury (Post 55683761)
Football is definitely profitable if you do things the right way.

Every major football club is in debt bar Bayern Munich. Real, Barcelona, everyone. Loss is usually covered by club´s owners, , ManUtd are in debts as well, Chelsea announced they are in profit first time after 8 or 9 years, and it took them to win Champions League to become profitable, which cant happen anymore to them.

Remember all the Liverpool drama with american owners (Gilette/Hicks), because they dared to make money there ? :laugh: Howevert strange it might sound for north americans, club´s owners arent expected to make money in footie.

http://dawn.com/2012/04/12/big-debts...spanish-glory/
http://english.gazzetta.it/Football/...70284951.shtml
http://www.albawaba.com/sport/epl-cl...n-pound-427691

In Bundesliga, Bayern is safe, even helping out other clubs (Dortmund, 1860). Schalke are in red numbers due to new arena construction, Dortmund are still battling with old debts from 90s, Nuremberg talks last 10 years about being debt-free starting from new season, Cologne managed to make minus 10m in just one season etc. Some so-called factory teams (Leverkusen, Wofsburg, Hoffenheim) would go dust in a minute their major owners would reduce their spendings. And thats the financially healthiest league in Europe I´m talking about.

alko 11-11-2012 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoundAndFury (Post 55683761)
Football is definitely profitable if you do things the right way.

a few years ago it was written, that Real Madrid has 500 000 000 USD dept! :amazed:

and they still doesnt have problem to buy big stars.

kajoo 11-11-2012 05:17 AM

not to hijack thread by bringing up football into discussion. Just trying to explain that comparing NHL and KHL can lead to apples/oranges analogy if you dont take into account other aspects, not only ever-popular rink size / softness / laziness discussion but also economical aspects of the sports in NA/Europe.

There seems to be major misunderstandings between American and European concepts of making sports, North Americans believe that club/league not generating profit is disaster waiting to happen while in socialist Europe people believe that trying to make money on sports is unnecessary, economical balance is the most you can expect, and once you make profit you MUST to re-invest it back into the the club to improve stadium, squad etc.

Not to mention Salary cap.

F.e. FC Barcelona payroll is like 300 million, while in NA hockey you guys have salary caps. Salary cap will make any competition more competitive, but also destroys any chance of building up generational team/ Dynasties. Courtesy of 300m payroll, FC Barcelona maintains squad stacked by world class players from top to bottom. Barca games are predicatble as hell sometimes as they arent expected to do anything less than to destroy their opponents. And even if this predicatibility can lead to an wrong assumption their games are "boring", I may ensure you that once players like Messi/Xavi/Iniesta hang their boots, this team will be fondly remembered as one of the best sports team ever assembled, and will be discussed by football fans in all over the world for decades, while all the unexpected Stanley Cup winners will be probably forgotten by global hockey fans sooner or later.

Every system has it´s pros and cons. Europeans are happy with their system, North Americans are happy with theirs. And everyone´s keep praising their own system while bashing the other one, which is perfectly ok imo. This often happens in two diverse worlds.

vorky 11-11-2012 05:37 AM

As was mentioned earlier, the model how sport works in Europe and NA is not the same.

KHL is special case, because league owns tv rights/cca 60% of adv place in rinks and this income does not share with clubs. But it should change sooner or later. Yes, clubs wont be in profit due to this change but it could help them. Another thing which is negative for clubs is rule that clubs can not hire/aquire a sponsor from the same economical segment as league sponsors are (banks, etc). As I know some german companies would like to sponsor SKA, but it is not possible due to rules.

Faterson 11-11-2012 05:59 AM

The writer's lack of informed perspective was shown by his thinking that paying $3.50 for a hotdog, chocolate bar and bottled water was cheap. Most people in post-Communist Europe would likely disagree. The $10 per ticket is not peanuts either. It may be an appropriate price, but it's not peanuts.

kajoo 11-11-2012 06:14 AM

Also, comparing ownerships in KHL/NHL is not accurate.

Private business in Eastern Europe was destroyed by commies in so it´s only logical that the majority of russian KHL owners are nowadays "oligarchs" who are somehow tied with politicians (how else they would become oligarchs, we had no Californian golden fever here, only wild privatisation in 90s) or there is involvment of politicians at all levels (central gvt, regional gvts, municipalities officials etc) in KHL´s clubs. Thats hardly a KHL´s specialty, but rather a general occurance in Eastern Europe where municipalities are tied with local clubs, owning, co-owning them, or owning their stadiums, and supporting local sports. Western European clubs arent owned by "oligarchs" but are economically tied with municipalities as well.

NHL franchises on the other hands are independent companies that dont rely on that kind of support/sponsorships. Little emotional ties between club/city, franchises can move whenever they want if they dont find the business environment attractive enough. Business envireonment in US wasnt damaged by commies, which might sound a lame excuse 20 years after the collapse of iron curtain, but isnt. The best example is football Germany - no eastern German club is in Bundesliga. Germans like Germans you say - but while west Germans drove VWs and MBs, east Germans were riding Trabbies. And 20 years later, there is still no east German club that could be able to establish themselves in top tier competition (in past only Cottbus, Rostock and Dresden made it up but always ended up relegated) - partially as a result of collapse of eastern Germany economy. Western Germany-based business in eastern Germany sending their earning to headquarters in west and dont care about local sports.

kajoo 11-11-2012 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faterson (Post 55684227)
The writer's lack of informed perspective was shown by his thinking that paying $3.50 for a hotdog, chocolate bar and bottled water was cheap. Most people in post-Communist Europe would likely disagree. The $10 per ticket is not peanuts either. It may be an appropriate price, but it's not peanuts.

agreed. 50 bucks for family is no peanuts either, at least not in country where average wage is 23,600 rubles ($790)

which also might explain the lack of fans in stands.

kajoo 11-11-2012 07:02 AM

what I find disturbing on this negativity is a fact that the hockey is sport imported to Europe from NA, thus I would expect little more understanding and supportivness from the overseas folks. Their negativity is nearly hysterical, looks like KHL is somehow getting under their skin.

Good example is football again, in fact, I dont ever remember reading any negative article on US soccer development, although compared to European/SA footie, US soccer is still nowhere near of top football nations. And I´m sure there are certainly many reasons to laugh about. Thing is, there is no reason for a jealousy, everyone wish US soccer programme to succeed.

Helpoing 11-11-2012 08:09 AM

Thanks for the insightful posts, kajoo, those were a good read. Can't say the same about the original article.

barneyg 11-11-2012 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kajoo (Post 55683847)
Every major football club is in debt bar Bayern Munich. Real, Barcelona, everyone. Loss is usually covered by club´s owners, , ManUtd are in debts as well, Chelsea announced they are in profit first time after 8 or 9 years, and it took them to win Champions League to become profitable, which cant happen anymore to them.

Not here to debate your point at all, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with being 'in debt'. Teams/businesses can be profitable and have outstanding debt at the same time, as your ManU and Barca links show (I can't see the Real Madrid article for some reason).

Quote:

Originally Posted by kajoo
There seems to be major misunderstandings between American and European concepts of making sports, North Americans believe that club/league not generating profit is disaster waiting to happen

That's not true at all. What NA people believe is that consistently losing a lot of money is a disaster waiting to happen. Consistently breaking even or losing a small amount of money is expected for most markets and most teams. The Globe & Mail is Toronto's main newspaper and it speaks to a Toronto audience. If you know anything about NHL economics, you know that you can't extrapolate anything out of Toronto to the other 29 markets in that league.

checkerdome 11-11-2012 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpoing (Post 55684785)
Thanks for the insightful posts, kajoo, those were a good read. Can't say the same about the original article.

I totally agree.

As a North American, I found the following comments by "kajoo" very illuminating:

"NHL franchises on the other hands are independent companies that dont rely on that kind of support/sponsorships. Little emotional ties between club/city, franchises can move whenever they want if they dont find the business environment attractive enough."

"Neither sports in Europe makes profit, thats european way of doing sports. And I see nothing wrong with it, club owners put their money down the toilett while making money elsewhere, owning club is matter of prestige, leisure activity for them."

"...50 bucks for family is no peanuts either, at least not in country where average wage is 23,600 rubles ($790)."


As illustrated by this article, it appears easy for a writer to fall into the trap of filtering everything through the prism of North American socio-economic realities, to the detriment of perfectly legitimate realities elsewhere.

Fulcrum 11-11-2012 11:59 PM

Regarding the profit/loss discussion:

Only 8 out of 30 NHL clubs are profitable.

And one of the most profitable sports organizations IN THE WORLD(Toronto Maple Leafs Sports & Entertainment) is also ranked 123rd out of 125th as the WORST Sports organization in the world. Chew on that Globe and Mail!

So what is the talk about unsustainable KHL?? blah blah blah

malkinfan 11-12-2012 01:13 AM

The most annoying part is that everyone around here (Canada) eats this propaganda and spews it at you like they are actually informed:help:. When I bump into people who talk hockey I tell them I don't mind the lockout because I watch OV/Kovy in the KHL....Then they usually respond by spitting some stupid thing they read or heard about the KHL from some junk reporter. I usually just laugh and not even bother arguing (to hide the inner KHL super nerd that exists in me)... But yeah, super annoying, even guys who played in the OHL and pros that I know are ignorant about it.

ps For this reason it is good to have Osdachenko shine light in English to the North American audience about the KHL, so their general perceptions will change. He will counter opinions presented from junk repoters from the Toronto Sun ect. who just like to stir up controversy. Using Dangle isn't a bad idea either because so many leaf fans will eat up whatever he has to say (Leafs fans are perceived as the dumbest hockey fans in the world!).

Fulcrum 11-12-2012 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malkinfan (Post 55707621)
The most annoying part is that everyone around here (Canada) eats this propaganda and spews it at you like they are actually informed:help:. When I bump into people who talk hockey I tell them I don't mind the lockout because I watch OV/Kovy in the KHL....Then they usually respond by spitting some stupid thing they read or heard about the KHL from some junk reporter. I usually just laugh and not even bother arguing (to hide the inner KHL super nerd that exists in me)... But yeah, super annoying, even guys who played in the OHL and pros that I know are ignorant about it.

ps For this reason it is good to have Osdachenko shine light in English to the North American audience about the KHL, so their general perceptions will change. He will counter opinions presented from junk repoters from the Toronto Sun ect. who just like to stir up controversy. Using Dangle isn't a bad idea either because so many leaf fans will eat up whatever he has to say (Leafs fans are perceived as the dumbest hockey fans in the world!).

Very true, I just ignore and pretend like I don't know anything about hockey. It's impossible to have a reasonable discussion with a typical Canadian hockey fan either because of insane arrogance, their lack of knowledge about anything outside NHL, or because it's inconceivable to them that something GOOD can exist outside NHL.

When you throw in facts, you can see the kettle boiling and the steam coming out, because there's too much conflicting information and it's just not worth it. It's true what they say, hockey is like a religion in Canada- and openly disagreeing with it has similar consequences.

You've seen the responses that Dangle and Osadchenko get on Twitter re KHL? "Commie ********"
I don't know if it's funny or downright stupid, but it's quiet extreme.

Vicente 11-12-2012 08:30 AM

I think its a good sign that this kind of articles appear in North American media. It shows they actually fear KHL to be a real competitor for NHL, especially as NHL stars right now ARE in the KHL !!

Would you write such an article about the ice hockey league in Latvia or Slovenia? No, because you wouldn't care as they are no threat. But the KHL is doing well !

Fulcrum 11-12-2012 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicente (Post 55709393)
I think its a good sign that this kind of articles appear in North American media. It shows they actually fear KHL to be a real competitor for NHL, especially as NHL stars right now ARE in the KHL !!

Would you write such an article about the ice hockey league in Latvia or Slovenia? No, because you wouldn't care as they are no threat. But the KHL is doing well !

Well, they would never admit that they are "afraid", even if they are to an extent. But your logic is exactly why there are all these anti-KHL articles.

kajoo 11-13-2012 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpoing (Post 55684785)
Thanks for the insightful posts, kajoo, those were a good read. Can't say the same about the original article.

you´re welcome, Helpoing :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by preissingg (Post 55686659)
I totally agree.

As a North American, I found the following comments by "kajoo" very illuminating:

thanks mate !

Quote:

Originally Posted by barneyg (Post 55686635)
Not here to debate your point at all, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with being 'in debt'. Teams/businesses can be profitable and have outstanding debt at the same time, as your ManU and Barca links show (I can't see the Real Madrid article for some reason).

which isnt in contradiction to what I said earlier, see post #5
Quote:

Neither sports in Europe makes profit, thats european way of doing sports. And I see nothing wrong with it
Real article about revenues/profit/debts from different sources, some of it should work for you 1, 2, 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by barneyg (Post 55686635)
That's not true at all. What NA people believe is that consistently losing a lot of money is a disaster waiting to happen. Consistently breaking even or losing a small amount of money is expected for most markets and most teams. The Globe & Mail is Toronto's main newspaper and it speaks to a Toronto audience. If you know anything about NHL economics, you know that you can't extrapolate anything out of Toronto to the other 29 markets in that league.

Looks like Globe and Mail werent the only ones falling into the trap of quick assumptions and stereotypes :laugh: It seems that I managed to fall into the same one, because it´s typical euro stereotype to think that north americans in sports are only after money and all that jazz. But unlike Globe and Mail writer, I never pretended to be true expert on NA sports, even If I have visited 2-3 NHL games which I didnt (never been in overseas actually)

Thanks for insight anyway.

kajoo 11-13-2012 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fulcrum (Post 55709167)
You've seen the responses that Dangle and Osadchenko get on Twitter re KHL? "Commie ********"
I don't know if it's funny or downright stupid, but it's quiet extreme.

20 years ago, some NA celebrities nearly called boycott for football world championships 1994, there were comment like "No proper American will ever watch soccer" (Whitney Houston), soccer is boring (by everyone) etc

1 1/2 decade later:




When KHL gets these hysterical reactions, they must to do something right.

malkinfan 11-13-2012 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fulcrum (Post 55709167)
Very true, I just ignore and pretend like I don't know anything about hockey. It's impossible to have a reasonable discussion with a typical Canadian hockey fan either because of insane arrogance, their lack of knowledge about anything outside NHL, or because it's inconceivable to them that something GOOD can exist outside NHL.

When you throw in facts, you can see the kettle boiling and the steam coming out, because there's too much conflicting information and it's just not worth it. It's true what they say, hockey is like a religion in Canada- and openly disagreeing with it has similar consequences.

You've seen the responses that Dangle and Osadchenko get on Twitter re KHL? "Commie ********"
I don't know if it's funny or downright stupid, but it's quiet extreme.

Right on the money with this, I feel bad for you because you are in Toronto, capital of kookoo pot Canadian hockey fans lol.. Im just a bit down the 401 from you and I thought I get it bad.


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