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-   -   Speculation: The All Purpose Lu Thread (MOD WARNING IN OP) (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1282091)

Gustav Nyquist 11-11-2012 05:12 PM

The All Purpose Lu Thread (MOD WARNING IN OP)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ColePens (Post 55366299)
MOD WARNING:

I know we had a 30+ Lu thread prior to this one that went down hill after countless Admin/Mod warnings. Let's please stay civil and respect one another. If you do get an infraction, expect to be removed from the trade board altogether. There will be no further warnings.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...99&postcount=1

Continue.

Cogburn 11-11-2012 05:39 PM

So in summary:

Everyone but Vancouver fans: Take our crap and be happy for it.

Vancouver fans: Give us more.

EBVF: No, here's a low end prospect, 2-3 line player and a low pick.

VF: We'll keep him. Shove off.

EBVF: Ha! Good luck. You're all delusional.

Age, declining play, contract, lack of a need to keep him, his desire to go else where, losing his spot to Schneider, all talked about ad nauseum.

Shall we restart the bids?

DougGilmour93 11-11-2012 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cogburn (Post 55697463)
So in summary:

Everyone but Vancouver fans: Take our crap and be happy for it.

Vancouver fans: Give us more.

EBVF: No, here's a low end prospect, 2-3 line player and a low pick.

VF: We'll keep him. Shove off.

EBVF: Ha! Good luck. You're all delusional.

Age, declining play, contract, lack of a need to keep him, his desire to go else where, losing his spot to Schneider, all talked about ad nauseum.

Shall we restart the bids?



To Vancouver:
Tim Connolly
Clarke MacArthur
Nazem Kadri
Franson/Blacker
2nd in 2013

To Toronto:
Roberto Luongo
Jensen/Gaunce

John Swartzwelder 11-11-2012 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 (Post 55698361)
To Vancouver:
Tim Connolly
Clarke MacArthur
Nazem Kadri
Franson/Blacker
2nd in 2013

To Toronto:
Roberto Luongo
Jensen/Gaunce

You add Komi, we add Tanev, done deal!

DougGilmour93 11-11-2012 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Swartzwelder (Post 55698471)
You add Komi, we add Tanev, done deal!

Seriously?
If so, I'm game.

Numbers 11-11-2012 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 (Post 55698361)
To Vancouver:
Tim Connolly
Clarke MacArthur
Nazem Kadri
Franson/Blacker
2nd in 2013

To Toronto:
Roberto Luongo
Jensen/Gaunce

I'm not going to comment on value here, because I think it is quite obvious to everyone but honestly in your opinion how does this trade help Vancouver? Also Vancouver has over 23 roster players signed, how do they fit all of these players without moving any the other way. Absolutely ridiculous especially from a guy who has already been repeatedly been making offers in previous Luongo threads......

DougGilmour93 11-11-2012 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numbers (Post 55698643)
I'm not going to comment on value here, because I think it is quite obvious to everyone but honestly in your opinion how does this trade help Vancouver? Also Vancouver has over 23 roster players signed, how do they fit all of these players without moving any the other way. Absolutely ridiculous especially from a guy who has already been repeatedly been making offers in previous Luongo threads......

From what I gather, Van fans wanted a C, and some mentioned Connolly by name. Others mentioned they wanted top 6 talent, hence I added in Mac.
Kadri is a decent prospect with big upside that has yet to be able to break the Leafs lineup/system (IMO he needs a change of scenery)
Franson is a Dman I'd rather hold onto as I feel he could break out if given consistent minutes. Same goes for Blacker, I'd rather hold onto him, but I understand you have to give to get.
A 2nd is decent, espercially in the deep 2013 draft.

If Vancouver needs, they could add a salary dump are way as well.

Numbers 11-11-2012 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 (Post 55698865)
From what I gather, Van fans wanted a C, and some mentioned Connolly by name. Others mentioned they wanted top 6 talent, hence I added in Mac.
Kadri is a decent prospect with big upside that has yet to be able to break the Leafs lineup/system (IMO he needs a change of scenery)
Franson is a Dman I'd rather hold onto as I feel he could break out if given consistent minutes. Same goes for Blacker, I'd rather hold onto him, but I understand you have to give to get.
A 2nd is decent, espercially in the deep 2013 draft.

If Vancouver needs, they could add a salary dump are way as well.

You did not answer my question about roster spots. How has Conolly been on your team, the Leafs, and how do you expect him to displace players on a president trophy winner. The same question goes for MacArthur.....why would Vancouver trade one of their best prospects? Why are you still posting bad proposals after you have had so much negative feedback?

Numbers 11-11-2012 06:38 PM

I'll tell you what Dougilmore93, here is a deal that makes a little more sense:

Vancouver
Conolly + Kulemin + Colbourne + 1st

T.O.
Luongo + Raymond

Or

Vancouver
Bozak + Frattin + Colbourne + 1st

T.O.
Luongo + Raymond

Let's keep the keyword all-star goalie in mind. If Van is taking 2 roster players they need to move 1 at least, hence Raymond.

The value Van is getting:

Is an upgrade on Raymond with potential=Kulemin/Frattin

Potential 3 C with 2 upside until Kesler comes black = Connolly/Bozak

Prospect= Colbourne

Pick= 1st

For all-star goalie= best player on Maple Leafs team

2nd/3rd Line winger with 20 goal potential = Raymond

MastuhNinks 11-11-2012 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numbers (Post 55699393)
I'll tell you what Dougilmore93, here is a deal that makes a little more sense:

Vancouver
Conolly + Kulemin + Colbourne + 1st

T.O.
Luongo + Raymond

Or

Vancouver
Bozak + Frattin + Colbourne + 1st

T.O.
Luongo + Raymond

Let's keep the keyword all-star goalie in mind. If Van is taking 2 roster players they need to move 1 at least, hence Raymond.

The value Van is getting:

Is an upgrade on Raymond with potential=Kulemin/Frattin

Potential 3 C with 2 upside until Kesler comes black = Connolly/Bozak

Prospect= Colbourne

Pick= 1st

For all-star goalie= best player on Maple Leafs team

2nd/3rd Line winger with 20 goal potential = Raymond

What about the first deal, only upgrade Colborne to Kadri and downgrade the 1st to a 2nd?

Seatoo 11-11-2012 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MastuhNinks (Post 55700241)
What about the first deal, only upgrade Colborne to Kadri and downgrade the 1st to a 2nd?

Done if Franson is thrown in.

Numbers 11-11-2012 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MastuhNinks (Post 55700241)
What about the first deal, only upgrade Colborne to Kadri and downgrade the 1st to a 2nd?

The thing is that Kadri is not an upgrade to the Canucks. Colbourne fits what they looking for. The 1st most likely will be 18-22 I think for an all-star player it is precedent. This is not a slight against Kadri though. Are you a toronto fan? And if so I appreciate the feedback, not too unreasonable unlike some on this board.

NYVanfan 11-11-2012 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 (Post 55698361)
To Vancouver:
Tim Connolly
Clarke MacArthur
Nazem Kadri
Franson/Blacker
2nd in 2013

To Toronto:
Roberto Luongo
Jensen/Gaunce

lol, this is your same offer as before, but instead of other secondary roster pieces from Van, you want our top prospect..!

and who gets bumped off the Prez' trophy winning roster to make room for the players who couldnt make the roster of the non-playoff team..?

NYVanfan 11-11-2012 07:19 PM

no to Connolly
$5M ufa to be made of glass couldnt even hold the top 6 in TO... why in hell do we want him?

Bozak, Kulemin, 1st is the least id take from TO (understanding that you may not like it, but happy to keep Luo for a while)

Ideally, Luongo, Raymond, Ballard for JVR, Phaneuf or Gardiner (also admittedly a lot)

MastuhNinks 11-11-2012 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seatoo (Post 55700375)
Done if Franson is thrown in.

Sure.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Numbers (Post 55700579)
The thing is that Kadri is not an upgrade to the Canucks. Colbourne fits what they looking for. The 1st most likely will be 18-22 I think for an all-star player it is precedent. This is not a slight against Kadri though. Are you a toronto fan? And if so I appreciate the feedback, not too unreasonable unlike some on this board.

Out of curiosity, what is it you think you're getting in Colborne that you're not in Kadri? The only thing he has on him IMO is size, but even then he really doesn't use it like he should. And you have to understand why Leafs fans are so hesitant to trade 1st round picks, even if the team is drastically improved. It's seldom that a day goes by here on hf without seeing somebody rag on the Leafs for 'giving up' Seguin and Hamilton. I really would not be comfortable with the Leafs giving up the 2013 1st in such a deep draft.

And another problem with this speculation is there really isn't that much precedent. It's not as simple as just saying he's an all-star, he's also a goalie which already makes it really difficult to gauge value, but on top of that there are some questions about how his contract affects his value.

DougGilmour93 11-11-2012 07:42 PM

You may think I'd throwing out terrible proposals, but I'm not. You're acting/pretending that Luongo has incredible value, but he does not. His contract lowers his value. He may be an all star, but he hasn't played like one recently. Heck, he hasn't been able to nail down his own position on his own team. In case you forgot, another goalie has supplanted him in Vancouver. You must have forgotten that part.

So in summary...

YOU ARE ALL FORGETTING THREE INTEGRAL PARTS THAT LOWER HIS VALUE...


1) Lost his job to another goalie with his inconsistent play, especially when it counts (playoffs)
2) Contract still has 10 yrs left (until he's 43)
3) Has a NTC that limits where he can be dealt


Take a moment to let that set in. Once it does, than you'll realise that Gillis's hands are pretty much tied. He won't be able to dictate the quality of a return he could recieve. He'll be lucky if Burke offers him half of what I have been proposing.

MastuhNinks 11-11-2012 07:48 PM

The closest comparison to this situation I can think of is the Halak trade.


Halak was traded for Lars Eller and Ian Schultz.

Now obviously the two situations aren't perfect comparisons, but considering that return I think Connolly-Kulemin-Kadri-2nd is actually a fantastic offer.

Ho Borvat 11-11-2012 08:05 PM

One thing we should consider:
- While Van may not want James Reimer, Burke could use Reimer to bring in a piece Vancouver may have interest in.

Example,
Reimer for Markus Kreuger
Reimer for Josh Bailey
(obviously adjustments to be made)

But Reimer could be turned into a more appealing asset for Vancouver.

Cogburn 11-11-2012 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 (Post 55698361)
To Vancouver:
Tim Connolly
Clarke MacArthur
Nazem Kadri
Franson/Blacker
2nd in 2013

To Toronto:
Roberto Luongo
Jensen/Gaunce

Nix Kadri and Jensen/Gaunce, we'd rather keep our two as they will fill a need for us in the future (size and skill). We're left with Luongo for Connolly, MacArthur, Franson/Blacker and a 2nd. That is a very "meh" deal, not as bad as some are making it out to be, but it's not great. I'd rather have Kulemin, and with out Kadri returning, who I'd call the centre piece of this deal from our end, and it's just not exciting to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numbers (Post 55699393)
I'll tell you what Dougilmore93, here is a deal that makes a little more sense:

Vancouver
Conolly + Kulemin + Colbourne + 1st

T.O.
Luongo + Raymond

This I would gladly accept.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numbers (Post 55699393)
Or

Vancouver
Bozak + Frattin + Colbourne + 1st

T.O.
Luongo + Raymond

I like the first one much better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MastuhNinks (Post 55700241)
What about the first deal, only upgrade Colborne to Kadri and downgrade the 1st to a 2nd?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seatoo (Post 55700375)
Done if Franson is thrown in.

So Franson, Kadri, Connolly, Kulemin and a 2nd for Lu and Raymond? I mean that's quantity of quality again, but heck, sign me up if Toronto's on board. Not what I'd want ideally, but if Luongo and Raymond are what we are giving up, it's a serviceable support package for this roster. Very similar to DougGilmour93's proposal, minus the Jensen/Gaunce return.

I'd rather take Colborne, but eh, concessions, right?

For any Toronto, and actually Buffalo fans, how's Connolly's defensive play? How would he look on our "Swiss Army Line" with Higgins and Hansen?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 (Post 55701687)
You may think I'd throwing out terrible proposals, but I'm not. You're acting/pretending that Luongo has incredible value, but he does not. His contract lowers his value. He may be an all star, but he hasn't played like one recently. Heck, he hasn't been able to nail down his own position on his own team. In case you forgot, another goalie has supplanted him in Vancouver. You must have forgotten that part.

So in summary...

YOU ARE ALL FORGETTING THREE INTEGRAL PARTS THAT LOWER HIS VALUE...


1) Lost his job to another goalie with his inconsistent play, especially when it counts (playoffs)
2) Contract still has 10 yrs left (until he's 43)
3) Has a NTC that limits where he can be dealt


Take a moment to let that set in. Once it does, than you'll realise that Gillis's hands are pretty much tied. He won't be able to dictate the quality of a return he could recieve. He'll be lucky if Burke offers him half of what I have been proposing.

His contract lowers his value, certainly, but it's one negative aspect (length) as opposed to cap hit and other factors.

1.) He lost out on 2 games where our whole team was awful. Luongo was the bright spot when he played in the playoffs, as was Schneider. If not for goaltending, we'd have been losing 8-1 to L.A. every game.

Also, his career playoff stats are better then his regular season stats, food for thought.

2.) Granted. Most Canucks fans concede that to outsiders, this is an absolute negative, but this is the only element in this saga that we can say "well yeah", even though we are more then happy to keep him with this term. Also, the new CBA is looking more and more like if he retires, his cap hit affects us, the signing team, not the team he's traded too, and that's both sides saying this.

3.) NTC does, he said he'd waive if it helps the team, but honestly, that's not a huge negative for us, I always say that as a negative for enquiring teams, as most teams needing a goalie (with the exception of Chicago) have a starting calibre goalie.

We haven't forgotten these things, we just think his play and contributions far out weigh the negative side. Clearly we disagree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MastuhNinks (Post 55701845)
The closest comparison to this situation I can think of is the Halak trade.

Halak was traded for Lars Eller and Ian Schultz.

Now obviously the two situations aren't perfect comparisons, but considering that return I think Connolly-Kulemin-Kadri-2nd is actually a fantastic offer.

An unsigned Halak for two solid prospects (at the time) in Schutlz and Eller, and considering that Luongo has done so much more then Halak, regular and post season, and Montreal couldn't afford to keep both Halak and Price with new contracts, I really don't see it as a parallel. Honestly, I'd say this situation, in the cap world, with this kind of contract, and with this calibre of player, is truly unprecedented.

Moore Money 11-11-2012 08:11 PM

option 1:
Lupal, Bozak, 1st for Luongo

option 2:
Gardiner + for Luongo

option 3:
Miss the playoffs again.

LEAFS FAN 4 EVER 11-11-2012 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoolChamp (Post 55702501)
option 1:
Lupal, Bozak, 1st for Luongo

option 2:
Gardiner + for Luongo

option 3:
Miss the playoffs again.

I take option 1. However I would make it a conditional 1st round pick that Vancouver only gets if Toronto makes the Playoffs. If they end up missing then it turns into a 2nd round pick.

DougGilmour93 11-11-2012 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoolChamp (Post 55702501)
option 1:
Lupal, Bozak, 1st for Luongo

option 2:
Gardiner + for Luongo

option 3:
Miss the playoffs again.

Bozak is the only attainable asset in those proposals in a deal for Luongo.

Scurr 11-11-2012 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 (Post 55702671)
Bozak is the only attainable asset in those proposals in a deal for Luongo.

Nothing to see here then, we can all move on.

MastuhNinks 11-11-2012 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cogburn (Post 55702419)
So Franson, Kadri, Connolly, Kulemin and a 2nd for Lu and Raymond? I mean that's quantity of quality again, but heck, sign me up if Toronto's on board. Not what I'd want ideally, but if Luongo and Raymond are what we are giving up, it's a serviceable support package for this roster. Very similar to DougGilmour93's proposal, minus the Jensen/Gaunce return.

I'd rather take Colborne, but eh, concessions, right?

For any Toronto, and actually Buffalo fans, how's Connolly's defensive play? How would he look on our "Swiss Army Line" with Higgins and Hansen?



An unsigned Halak for two solid prospects (at the time) in Schutlz and Eller, and considering that Luongo has done so much more then Halak, regular and post season, and Montreal couldn't afford to keep both Halak and Price with new contracts, I really don't see it as a parallel. Honestly, I'd say this situation, in the cap world, with this kind of contract, and with this calibre of player, is truly unprecedented.

If you'd rather take Colborne, by all means take him. I was switching Colborne to Kadri to sweeten the deal for Canucks fans.

Connolly is kinda weird... He can actually be a very solid player but he's just lazy. Playing with Higgins and Hansen I could see him looking alright, sometimes he'll impress you with his skill and he'll seem like a smart player and other times he'll frustrate you with his lazy play and poor decision making. I think that he could potentially help that already pretty good 3rd line for the Canucks score a little more though. If the experiment fails, he's off the books anyways.

I understand that the Halak situation wasn't exactly like it, but it's just the closest comparison I could think of. I figured Halak wasn't nearly as proven but he made up for it by being significantly younger. The biggest difference of course is that the Canucks have the ability to keep both goalies. I definitely wouldn't call Ian Schultz a solid prospect though, he's a 3rd round draft pick (rated 6.0D on hockey'sfuture... not the most reliable source but it gives a good general indication). The trade was essentially Halak for Lars Eller, a player who was not as good as Kadri in the AHL (and slightly better than Colborne).

So it's settled then? Luongo for Connolly, Kulemin, Colborne and a 2nd?

Thread over? :laugh:

Vankiller Whale 11-11-2012 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER (Post 55702653)
I take option 1. However I would make it a conditional 1st round pick that Vancouver only gets if Toronto makes the Playoffs. If they end up missing then it turns into a 2nd round pick.

Done deal for me. It's fair value and addresses our needs.

It would also be a classic Burke to sell high on Lupul.


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