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-   -   What the Maple Leafs REALLY need (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1282971)

Dontdive 11-14-2012 12:08 AM

What the Maple Leafs REALLY need
 
A lot of times I see threads in here and on the Trade Rumors board about what the Leafs "need" to get to become playoff and Stanley Cup contenders. I read "We need a goaltender" a lot, for example, and many a thread has been about just that and other positions, and who would be best, and so on.

To quote The Princess Bride, "I do not think that word means what you think it means." Not for Toronto, anyways. And here's why.

You Maple Leaf fans? You're too good. Too loyal. Too willing to shell out the bucks for the seats and merchandise, too willing to watch the games so they get the ratings so companies are slavering to pay the TV stations to advertise their wares.

Nevermind what Burke or any other member of the Leafs say. So long as those massive bucks keep flowing in, far in excess of what most teams get, the strategy and execution used to try to improve the team is irrelevant. What you "need" in terms of players is irrelevant.

After all, all the fans want the team to succeed... eventually at least... but this lockout is showing even more than usual how this league is about money. And practically no team is better at it than the Maple Leafs.

Don't get me wrong. The Leafs will say the right things. An occasional manager or coach type might get thrown to the wolves every once in a while to quell rising anger, but there's no "need" for any *urgency" to any of it. Not even for a long term rebuild. As long as they *say* they're doing it, they don't have to really do it. Not competently, anyways.

Because... you fans? You're too good. Too loyal. If you were more picky, more willing to not buy the merchandise, and stay away from the games and not even watch them on TV... then things might really change. For the better.

Because they wouldn't be able to take you for granted anymore.

Dangles McGavin 11-14-2012 12:16 AM

Still need a goalie.

Whydidijoin* 11-14-2012 12:27 AM

Common misconception.

We have a high payroll, one of the biggest management teams, and offer all of the perks that a rich team can.

Playoff Revenue alone makes any so-called "complacency" a bad business approach. Add in increased merchandise sales, ticket price increases, and a Stanley Cup-sized increase in franchise value that go along with it, you better believe they do everything they can to win.

If they really wanted to make more money, they wouldn't sacrifice the team. They would just charge the fans more money.

Rare Jewel 11-14-2012 12:33 AM

What do you mean YOU Maple leaf fans?







jk;)


As for the whole "money flowing" thing.

You what makes a lot of money....Winning. So if/when this team becomes a power again type of money they make now will seem insignificant to what they could potentially make when that does happen.

So there is motivation for the suits on economic level to create and build a winner, So that's why I'll never buy the whole fan boycotting routine.

SeenSchenn2 11-14-2012 12:35 AM

http://stuffpoint.com/the-simpsons/i...razy-homer.jpg

Dontdive 11-14-2012 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whydidijoin (Post 55755649)
Common misconception.

We have a high payroll, one of the biggest management teams, and offer all of the perks that a rich team can.

With so much money coming in, spending a ton of money is a no-brainer. But this isn't MLB, you can't buy championships in the NHL.

Quote:

Playoff Revenue alone makes any so-called "complacency" a bad business approach. Add in increased merchandise sales, ticket price increases, and a Stanley Cup-sized increase in franchise value that go along with it, you better believe they do everything they can to win.
Yet even having missed the playoffs - how many years now? - They still make ridiculous profits. For the Leafs, making the playoffs is a bonus, not a necessity.

Quote:

If they really wanted to make more money, they wouldn't sacrifice the team. They would just charge the fans more money.
You mean for tickets? I'm sure they've done the math to figure out how to maximize the prices most efficiently.

Don't get confused and think that just because they do the easy things and spend a lot that there's any real urgency to improve the team. They don't need to.

You Leaf fans will pay the big bucks anyways.

Whydidijoin* 11-14-2012 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dontdive (Post 55755733)
With so much money coming in, spending a ton of money is a no-brainer. But this isn't MLB, you can't buy championships in the NHL.

Yet even having missed the playoffs - how many years now? - They still make ridiculous profits. For the Leafs, making the playoffs is a bonus, not a necessity.

You mean for tickets? I'm sure they've done the math to figure out how to maximize the prices most efficiently.

Don't get confused and think that just because they do the easy things and spend a lot that there's any real urgency to improve the team. They don't need to.

You Leaf fans will pay the big bucks anyways.

No, you can't buy a championship in this league. Which is why I am confused as to why you think they don't try. They do everything they can do within the CBA.

No, they don't need to make the playoffs to remain a team in the NHL. But making the playoffs substantially increases their profits. Winning the cup would make current profits look like pocket change. And like any business or person, they seek to maximize profits.

Also, owners make very few decisions. Hockey Management does. And the livelihood of the management of the team depends on how the team does, so even if the owners weren't totally committed, which you have given no proof to support, then the management would still be making all of the best choices for the success of the team (since it is in their best interests).

And the owners of Toronto have given management everything they need to realize this goal.

Already having money is not a reason to be complacent with your business.

Also, you're a fool if you think Toronto couldn't make more money by raising ticket/merchandise/concession prices. You said it yourself. People would pay.

Gloob 11-14-2012 01:33 AM

I'm not sure at all what you're trying to say. This seems like another thread trolling us, the loyal fan. Which, I suppose, we deserve, as we aren't bandwagon jumpers like some people. You're saying that we need a goalie and are complaining about it too much? You quoted the princess bride as saying "I do not think that word means what you think it means", is that word goaltending? Having seen Vesa Toskala and Andrew Raycroft, we know what poor goaltending is. (Despite Raycroft's single season record/tied with eddy the eagle) This thread isn't making sense to me, and our steadfastedness as fans isn't a detriment, in my eyes.

MrPiff17 11-14-2012 01:34 AM

Better players

Riddarn 11-14-2012 02:07 AM

pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence.

Dontdive 11-14-2012 02:30 AM

I apologize to anyone who thinks I'm trolling. In a way, I'm kind of one of the fans causing the problem. The Leafs are one of my favorite teams, and even if they beat my favorite team to win the Cup, I'd still be happy because at least one of them would have won it!

But it doesn't change the fact that if you're one of the absolute top guys on the Leafs, you're not worried at all about the team, and that's what would should be worrying to us.

The team is just so set financially they can take it easy, do the obvious, safe things to make it look like they're trying, and that's good enough, because the true Leaf fans are so good, and ultimately so forgiving (because they pay the bucks regardless).

Whydidijoin* 11-14-2012 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dontdive (Post 55756397)
I apologize to anyone who thinks I'm trolling. In a way, I'm kind of one of the fans causing the problem. The Leafs are one of my favorite teams, and even if they beat my favorite team to win the Cup, I'd still be happy because at least one of them would have won it!

But it doesn't change the fact that if you're one of the absolute top guys on the Leafs, you're not worried at all about the team, and that's what would should be worrying to us.

The team is just so set financially they can take it easy, do the obvious, safe things to make it look like they're trying, and that's good enough, because the true Leaf fans are so good, and ultimately so forgiving (because they pay the bucks regardless).

And what evidence do you have to support your suggestion that this is what is happening?

BlueBaron 11-14-2012 06:21 AM

Don't think you thought this through OP. The Leafs spend more on scouting, their front office, their medical team , their minor league team, than anyone else, not to mention spending close to the cap every year. They don't do this for kicks. If what you are implying were true, the Leafs would spend at the floor and have minimum expenditure on everything they could and laugh all the way to the bank. What would they do differently ? Most Leaf fans know Burke is trying to build a perenial contender. We may not always agree with his every move but none of us doubt his desire to win.

paulster2626 11-14-2012 08:43 AM

Who the hell takes anyone seriously who quotes The Princess Bride? Honestly guys, WTF?

LOCKOUT MUST END...

And yes, the Leafs still need a goalie. And a #1C - need that too.

Mess 11-14-2012 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dontdive (Post 55756397)
I apologize to anyone who thinks I'm trolling. In a way, I'm kind of one of the fans causing the problem. The Leafs are one of my favorite teams, and even if they beat my favorite team to win the Cup, I'd still be happy because at least one of them would have won it!

But it doesn't change the fact that if you're one of the absolute top guys on the Leafs, you're not worried at all about the team, and that's what would should be worrying to us.

The team is just so set financially they can take it easy, do the obvious, safe things to make it look like they're trying, and that's good enough, because the true Leaf fans are so good, and ultimately so forgiving (because they pay the bucks regardless).

Despite being a cash cow, and a virtual license to print money for MSLE due to fan loyalty, we have just witnessed the majority owners OTPP (Ontario Teachers Pension) sell their share to Bell/Rogers.

If things were so good and profitable then why do you think they sold off their money making machine?

7even 11-14-2012 09:46 AM

Ugh :facepalm:

ACC1224 11-14-2012 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulster2626 (Post 55758555)
Who the hell takes anyone seriously who quotes The Princess Bride? Honestly guys, WTF?

LOCKOUT MUST END...

And yes, the Leafs still need a goalie. And a #1C - need that too.

I'm sure that's where most stopped reading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mess (Post 55759343)
Despite being a cash cow, and a virtual license to print money for MSLE due to fan loyalty, we have just witnessed the majority owners OTPP (Ontario Teachers Pension) sell their share to Bell/Rogers.

If things were so good and profitable then why do you think they sold off their money making machine?

Why is any Company bought and sold?

theIceWookie 11-14-2012 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dontdive (Post 55755475)
A lot of times I see threads in here and on the Trade Rumors board about what the Leafs "need" to get to become playoff and Stanley Cup contenders. I read "We need a goaltender" a lot, for example, and many a thread has been about just that and other positions, and who would be best, and so on.

To quote The Princess Bride, "I do not think that word means what you think it means." Not for Toronto, anyways. And here's why.

You Maple Leaf fans? You're too good. Too loyal. Too willing to shell out the bucks for the seats and merchandise, too willing to watch the games so they get the ratings so companies are slavering to pay the TV stations to advertise their wares.

Nevermind what Burke or any other member of the Leafs say. So long as those massive bucks keep flowing in, far in excess of what most teams get, the strategy and execution used to try to improve the team is irrelevant. What you "need" in terms of players is irrelevant.

After all, all the fans want the team to succeed... eventually at least... but this lockout is showing even more than usual how this league is about money. And practically no team is better at it than the Maple Leafs.

Don't get me wrong. The Leafs will say the right things. An occasional manager or coach type might get thrown to the wolves every once in a while to quell rising anger, but there's no "need" for any *urgency" to any of it. Not even for a long term rebuild. As long as they *say* they're doing it, they don't have to really do it. Not competently, anyways.

Because... you fans? You're too good. Too loyal. If you were more picky, more willing to not buy the merchandise, and stay away from the games and not even watch them on TV... then things might really change. For the better.

Because they wouldn't be able to take you for granted anymore.

This whole argument is based on faulty logic.

The Leafs make MORE money by being better. There is simply no logic, business or other, that says the team would be ok with losing. None. A playoff team makes more money. It's that simple.

It's not some conspiracy that the team is saying "meh, we won't try, they pay us anyways" because it doesn't make sense. They would be leaving more profit on the table, and considering the basis of your argument rests on them only caring about money and not the fans, your argument falls apart.

Now if they were habitually bad, spending near the cap basement, and not putting money into the front office, scouting, training etc (all things that are not true), then maybe the theory might hold some validity.

But it does not, nor will it ever. Yet the idea always crops up and gets latched onto by so many ignorant hockey fans.

Patty Lee 11-14-2012 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulster2626 (Post 55758555)
Who the hell takes anyone seriously who quotes The Princess Bride? Honestly guys, WTF?

LOCKOUT MUST END...

And yes, the Leafs still need a goalie. And a #1C - need that too.

the quote doesn't make sense in his post, but don't knock The Princess Bride. it's a wonderful movie.

I love how guys like the OP come in and insult every Leaf fan, player, coach, management and owner, and then says please don't think I'm trolling. the arrogance of a guy to come to the Leafs board to point out the simple solution of how to end the team's drought and show us stupid fans the way.

I stop reading when people think that anyone associated with the Leafs, be it fans, owners, coaches, whoever, don't want to win. That is the stupidest thing anyone can say. and obviously the OP has never been involved in competitive sports. you don't get there as a player, you don't get there as a coach, you don't get there as an owner, if you don't have the desire to succeed.

Patty Lee 11-14-2012 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFinnishKulemin (Post 55760017)
This whole argument is based on faulty logic.

The Leafs make MORE money by being better. There is simply no logic, business or other, that says the team would be ok with losing. None. A playoff team makes more money. It's that simple.

It's not some conspiracy that the team is saying "meh, we won't try, they pay us anyways" because it doesn't make sense. They would be leaving more profit on the table, and considering the basis of your argument rests on them only caring about money and not the fans, your argument falls apart.

Now if they were habitually bad, spending near the cap basement, and not putting money into the front office, scouting, training etc (all things that are not true), then maybe the theory might hold some validity.

But it does not, nor will it ever. Yet the idea always crops up and gets latched onto by so many ignorant hockey fans.

exactly. if the owners were only greedy pigs in it for profit, there is more profit to be made with playoff games. So even that argument has holds no water.

BTW OP, the players don't get paid in the playoffs but the fans still pay. no money to be made there? no TV revenue? to extra merchandise going to be sold? you haven't a clue.

paulster2626 11-14-2012 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Around in 67 (Post 55760227)
I love how guys like the OP come in and insult every Leaf fan, player, coach, management and owner, and then says please don't think I'm trolling. the arrogance of a guy to come to the Leafs board to point out the simple solution of how to end the team's drought and show us stupid fans the way.

It's like when the wife starts *****ing about something, and when I take offense, I'm told "it's just how I feel". I need to remind her that just because you feel a certain way, doesn't make it right.

Just because you say you're not trollin' the Leafs fans, doesn't mean you're not trollin' the Leafs fans.

BlueBaron 11-14-2012 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mess (Post 55759343)
Despite being a cash cow, and a virtual license to print money for MSLE due to fan loyalty, we have just witnessed the majority owners OTPP (Ontario Teachers Pension) sell their share to Bell/Rogers.

If things were so good and profitable then why do you think they sold off their money making machine?

Short term gain vs long term ? If you are suggesting people never sell profitable businesses you may want to rethink that.

TheCLAM 11-14-2012 12:01 PM

A proper rebuild.

ACC1224 11-14-2012 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheCLAM (Post 55762961)
A proper rebuild.

No such a thing exists.

Dontdive 11-14-2012 12:22 PM

Quote:

I love how guys like the OP come in and insult every Leaf fan, player, coach, management and owner, and then says please don't think I'm trolling. the arrogance of a guy to come to the Leafs board to point out the simple solution of how to end the team's drought and show us stupid fans the way.
I didn't present any solution. And I think how good the Leaf fans are is worthy of praise. They're in my opinion the best fans in hockey. They're very very loyal, and willing to show it in many ways. They are not the cause of how badly the Leafs have done, for so many years.

Correlation does not always equal causation. There is a correlation between how good the fans are and how this allows the top Leafs brass to not have enough urgency to properly improve the team, but those fans are not the cause.

Note too I didn't specifically insult the coach or GM of the Leafs, because they're not the top brass of the Leafs. I'm pretty sure Brian Burke for example knows he might be fired pretty soon if he doesn't improve things. That implies he has bosses who can do that, right? They're the ones I'm talking about.


Quote:

I stop reading when people think that anyone associated with the Leafs, be it fans, owners, coaches, whoever, don't want to win. That is the stupidest thing anyone can say. and obviously the OP has never been involved in competitive sports. you don't get there as a player, you don't get there as a coach, you don't get there as an owner, if you don't have the desire to succeed.
I just look at the results. The Leafs haven't won the cup since 1967. They haven't been in the playoffs even in what - seven years?

To me, that's terrible. And depressing.

Here's the weird thing too. It's possible to not have the urgency I'm talking about, and still luck out if the people you hire to do things - like the coach and GM - do the right things themselves.

It's plain a lot of Leaf fans think Burke for example is on the right track, despite his distinct lack of success on the ice.

But whether that's true or not, all that money coming in means his bosses can relax, take it easy, and say "Let's give him another year." And not go all out to find someone better than him.

In pretty much any other city, he'd have been fired by now.


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