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-   -   Proposal: Det-Car (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1283197)

Yes We Cam 11-14-2012 05:00 PM

Det-Car
 
Detroit:
Tim Gleason
Chad LaRose

Carolina:
Johan Franzen

It was being heavily debated whether the Wings or Canes should add on to this deal, so I threw in Rosey's smile to make the deal look better.

Wingsfan2965* 11-14-2012 05:58 PM

To be completely honestly it sounds like an overpayment on Carolina's part. Franzen is a damn good goal scorer (no matter how streaky he is) but for both Gleason and LaRose I don't think Carolina does it.

Any time you're talking about Franzen you have to subtract is contract from his value, so even if we're close at the face value of players, Carolina probably wants more because of Franzen's contract.

SirloinUB 11-14-2012 06:07 PM

Decent proposal for both sides.


At this point id rather Detroit stand pat with their roster as is. I realize you got to give to get. However, Franzen brings more to detriot than most of the proposals on this website could return in if he were moved. Lets drop all of the Franzen for XXX. He is a valuable goal score that is not worth trading at this point in time.

pdd 11-14-2012 07:14 PM

Didn't I bring up this exact trade in another thread?

Nyquist 11-14-2012 07:15 PM

I like Gleason but for the price of Franzen he isn't even close to worth it imo. We have no need for Larose.

Yes We Cam 11-14-2012 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 55772517)
Didn't I bring up this exact trade in another thread?

No, I believe you wanted us to throw in a first as compensation for Quincey.

pdd 11-14-2012 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hooked on Ponics (Post 55772571)
No, I believe you wanted us to throw in a first as compensation for Quincey.

That's right, I had Quincey in there. And he's worth a first or Steve Downie, based on last season's trading. I included Quincey because that keep the Wings from having to waive a defenseman.

Yes We Cam 11-14-2012 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 55772775)
That's right, I had Quincey in there. And he's worth a first or Steve Downie, based on last season's trading. I included Quincey because that keep the Wings from having to waive a defenseman.

That sounds fair, but we can't afford to lose our first rounder with the way this lockouts playin out. Plus, we don't necessarily need to add another PMD

The Zetterberg Era 11-14-2012 08:12 PM

I don't see where LaRose fits in Detroit even if I like him as a player. In fact I like both him and Gleason a bunch, but this leaves a huge hole in Detroits lineup. Franzen is a lot better than people think. I am not going to say it is a totally unfair offer, but it isn't something I am hoping Holland does.

HTT3* 11-14-2012 09:47 PM

Why would Detroit even consider trading their best goal scorer on the team for another bottom 4 defenseman?

The only spot that "may" need filled on Detroit's defense is a #1 only. Not a #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, or a #7... just a #1.

Last time I checked Tim Gleason is NOT a #1.

Then, after Holland trades away his best goal scorer on the team, who's going to replace his goal scoring production? Mikael Samuelsson? Really?

Red Wings have a plethora of Bottom 4 defenseman in Covo, Quincey, White, Ericsson, Kindl, Smith.... Why do they need another?

Red Wings need a guy to pair with Kronwall. Work out a trade proposal for Boumeester or someone better, but not Tim FREAKING Gleason for god sakes!!!!

Wingsfan2965* 11-15-2012 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HTT3 (Post 55775893)
Why would Detroit even consider trading their best goal scorer on the team for another bottom 4 defenseman?

The only spot that "may" need filled on Detroit's defense is a #1 only. Not a #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, or a #7... just a #1.

Last time I checked Tim Gleason is NOT a #1.

Then, after Holland trades away his best goal scorer on the team, who's going to replace his goal scoring production? Mikael Samuelsson? Really?

Red Wings have a plethora of Bottom 4 defenseman in Covo, Quincey, White, Ericsson, Kindl, Smith.... Why do they need another?

Red Wings need a guy to pair with Kronwall. Work out a trade proposal for Boumeester or someone better, but not Tim FREAKING Gleason for god sakes!!!!

The fact that people consider Yandle and Green to be #1 defenders makes me content with calling Kronwall our #1 defender.

Because defensively, he's miles ahead of them both.

AJMHABS 11-15-2012 12:39 AM

Bad deal for Detroit. They add defensive depth, but the return doesn't help Detroit with the lost of their top goal scorer.

Wingsfan2965* 11-15-2012 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJMHABS (Post 55779527)
Bad deal for Detroit. They add defensive depth, but the return doesn't help Detroit with the lost of their top goal scorer.

Detroit's making some pretty big offensive additions through their prospects in the next three years.

Nyquist this year. Tatar probably next year. Jarnkrok next year or the year after. Jurco in two years.

AJMHABS 11-15-2012 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 (Post 55779563)
Detroit's making some pretty big offensive additions through their prospects in the next three years.

Nyquist this year. Tatar probably next year. Jarnkrok next year or the year after. Jurco in two years.

Well, if Nyquist or Jarnkrok can make Franzen expendable and put up the slack offensively, then go ahead with the deal.

Wingsfan2965* 11-15-2012 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJMHABS (Post 55779597)
Well, if Nyquist or Jarnkrok can make Franzen expendable and put up the slack offensively, then go ahead with the deal.

With Franzen's age, it'll probably be sooner than you think.

I wouldn't put him up for this deal though. Rather package him with something.

Generic User 11-15-2012 12:55 AM

Not a bad proposal. I wouldn't do it if I were Detroit, though. They need more top 6 talent, IMO. They can fill the bottom 6 rather quickly. Though LaRose is underrated, I don't think this deal gets Detroit to bite. Plus, it seems LaRose is dead set on being a Carolina lifer.

Wingsfan2965* 11-15-2012 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Generic User (Post 55779713)
Not a bad proposal. I wouldn't do it if I were Detroit, though. They need more top 6 talent, IMO. They can fill the bottom 6 rather quickly. Though LaRose is underrated, I don't think this deal gets Detroit to bite. Plus, it seems LaRose is dead set on being a Carolina lifer.

I can understand saying they should hold on their Top six, but they don't need more.

Franzen - Datsyuk - Nyquist
Filppula - Zetterberg - Brunner/Samuelsson

That's a pretty damn good Top six.

Generic User 11-15-2012 01:26 AM

Eh. I think they could improve on that top 6. Didn't know Nyquist Explosion was already being penciled in on the 1st line.

Wingsfan2965* 11-15-2012 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Generic User (Post 55780099)
Eh. I think they could improve on that top 6. Didn't know Nyquist Explosion was already being penciled in on the 1st line.

His performance thusfar has pretty much sealed it.

He would've stayed on the first line with Datsyuk last season if he hadn't been underweight. He was great until he got put up against physical teams, then he got pushed off the puck easily. If I recall correctly he has gained some 10-15 pounds since then and it apparently isn't a problem anymore.

The Zetterberg Era 11-15-2012 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 (Post 55779801)
I can understand saying they should hold on their Top six, but they don't need more.

Franzen - Datsyuk - Nyquist
Filppula - Zetterberg - Brunner/Samuelsson

That's a pretty damn good Top six.

It is to Wings fans, because we hold all of those players save Samuelsson in very high regard. I understand there value being less than some of the homerish viewpoints.

A large part of this is setup by Wings fans anyway in my opinion. Heck Franzen is basically the new Osgood, Wings fans rip on him so much I think it has hurt his overall value even though he is still a very good player. I doubt his value is nearly as low as some of the offers I see thrown around on him to Wings management or other GMs around the league.

Filppula has always had worlds of talent, Selanne and Wings management spent so long hyping him he became disappointing to some while in the third line role. He spends one season in the top six on the wing and he produces big. Now the talent has always been there and most of us think that season is the result of opportunity finally being given. But I don't fault other fan-bases for maybe thinking our certainty in his production in the coming season is placed a bit high.

*By the way he is out for two months as of today should a quick end to the lockout happen.

Nyquist is super hyped, but Filppula and Franzen are the last elite offensive talents the Wings have produced. I believe in him and Tatar quite a bit, but you see around here a lot of people thinking just being Red Wings prospect gets you overhyped. I think those that don't believe will eat their words. But it is hard to scare other teams with potential in your top six, until it has more than 20 NHL games of producing.

Brunner is interesting because he is another European free agent. I have to believe with college free agents, slow minor career guys and undrafted guys eventually one of these guys is going to hit big. I am talking bigger than Leino's big season. I think Brunner is an interesting guy and his comfort level with Zetterberg is encouraging.

The other factor is why every Wings fan slots Nyquist and Brunner in the lineup. The very real possability exists because of contracts and them having options, those roles will be filled by Bertuzzi, Cleary or Samuelsson. Not terrible but not altogether (well for other teams...) scary either. It depends on how Babcock and Holland really intend on putting this team together. History suggest it will be veterans, but then again unlike some of the more recent history when wins are necessary, the taking care of vets approach might vanish in a hurry.

Wingsfan2965* 11-15-2012 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedWings19405 (Post 55780211)
It is to Wings fans, because we hold all of those players save Samuelsson in very high regard. I understand there value being less than some of the homerish viewpoints.

A large part of this is setup by Wings fans anyway in my opinion. Heck Franzen is basically the new Osgood, Wings fans rip on him so much I think it has hurt his overall value even though he is still a very good player. I doubt his value is nearly as low as some of the offers I see thrown around on him to Wings management or other GMs around the league.

Filppula has always had worlds of talent, Selanne and Wings management spent so long hyping him he became disappointing to some while in the third line role. He spends one season in the top six on the wing and he produces big. Now the talent has always been there and most of us think that season is the result of opportunity finally being given. But I don't fault other fan-bases for maybe thinking our certainty in his production in the coming season is placed a bit high.

*By the way he is out for two months as of today should a quick end to the lockout happen.

Nyquist is super hyped, but Filppula and Franzen are the last elite offensive talents the Wings have produced. I believe in him and Tatar quite a bit, but you see around here a lot of people thinking just being Red Wings prospect gets you overhyped. I think those that don't believe will eat their words. But it is hard to scare other teams with potential in your top six, until it has more than 20 NHL games of producing.

Brunner is interesting because he is another European free agent. I have to believe with college free agents, slow minor career guys and undrafted guys eventually one of these guys is going to hit big. I am talking bigger than Leino's big season. I think Brunner is an interesting guy and his comfort level with Zetterberg is encouraging.

The other factor is why every Wings fan slots Nyquist and Brunner in the lineup. The very real possability exists because of contracts and them having options, those roles will be filled by Bertuzzi, Cleary or Samuelsson. Not terrible but not altogether (well for other teams...) scary either. It depends on how Babcock and Holland really intend on putting this team together. History suggest it will be veterans, but then again unlike some of the more recent history when wins are necessary, the taking care of vets approach might vanish in a hurry.

Unfortunately, I don't think we'll have to worry about that.

I can certainly see questioning Brunner, but at this point, you'd be foolish to bet against Nyquist. Sure, there's always the chance he could bust, that is the case with anybody, but you've got a better chance being right if you bet on him. Just saying, the guy is hanging with Jordan Eberle in the AHL points race.

While you are right that history would suggest the vets getting the positions, I don't think we're at that point now. Bertuzzi, if we're lucky, will be good for 40 points. Same with Cleary. Veterans get those spots if they're capable of producing as good as the youth, and I don't think Bertuzzi or Cleary is capable of doing that anymore. And in the case of Nyquist, I think he's just that good, and they certainly aren't going to pluck him out of the AHL to play bottom line minutes. Holmstrom was a top line player as long as he was because of the role he had.

Samuelsson is the only one of the three that I can see being a top six guy unless an injury happens.

Cardiac_Canes 11-15-2012 04:00 PM

I get that you're trying to improve our top 6, but you do realize our defense still sucks, right? How does moving one of our few guys who knows how to play defense help us out?

Mystlyfe 11-15-2012 04:48 PM

Does Carolina expect to win games 6-5 every night?

FissionFire 11-17-2012 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystlyfe (Post 55792697)
Does Carolina expect to win games 6-5 every night?

I think every single team president and owner would want just that. They may never admit it publically and praise defensive play, but they all know fans love scoring and winning. If you can score 5+ goals a night and win ~60% of the time it would be an owners dream come true. The only people who love the defensive showdowns are goalies and coaches. Give me a good ol' 80s style 8-6 shootout (or a no-defense series like this last Pit/Philly one) over another boring 2-0 or 3-1 game. The NHL would be smart to go back to the 80s model of no-defense and lots of fighting. The fans, especially casual ones, love that junk and it's what will grow the sport more than anything.

pdd 11-17-2012 08:29 PM

The big thing about this deal?

Gleason is a solid defensive defenseman. Pushing this deal through in the OP would likely make the regular PK defensemen Kronwall, Ericsson, Gleason, and Quincey/White. That's a heck of a lot better than Kronwall, Ericsson, Quincey, and White as the foursome.

Larose is also a solid winger who can produce offensively, while playing a decent defensive game. The biggest loss by trading Franzen would be size, not skill. And Franzen doesn't really use his size the way he could or should. While Larose is 5'10", Franzen plays like he is 5'10".

And using Drew Miller and Brian Rafalski as examples, players who come home to the Detroit area improve their play because of closeness to home. So that's another benefit.


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