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-   -   Why are people hating on Marty (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1283209)

marty 4 hart* 11-14-2012 05:45 PM

Why are people hating on Marty
 
People just love to lay hate on him. The history board just voted Marty the sixth greatest goalie ever. They voted Hasek the choker above him. But we all know that Marty is no1.

Bleedred 11-14-2012 06:18 PM

Because Marty is a washed up choker! He is not a championship goalie, was always overrated, system goalie, and cost us the Cup by giving up 5 goals in game 6 of the SCF, including 3 in four minutes!:sarcasm:

GM17* 11-14-2012 06:18 PM

because if I went to the NHL and somehow scored 12 goals in 4 minutes and then went scoreless for 20 years my "prime" would be better than anyone elses and therefore am the best who's ever played

Wingman77 11-14-2012 06:18 PM

Marty may not be number one all-time but the fact that he was voted 6th says that those who voted are the type of people that need to be different and over analyze 'just because' - like in baseball, people saying they'd take Rickey Henderson over Babe Ruth because Henderson was more of a complete player or in football people saying they'd take Eli over Peyton because Eli has more SB's and SB MVPs

It's HF why bother taking what is said in a poll by a number of self proclaimed hockey experts with anything more than a grain of salt - especially the history board, its like a country club over there; many of them are the most intelligent and best at understanding hockey and cannot be told otherwise

Bleedred 11-14-2012 06:22 PM

Hasek was better for a shorter period of time. Didn't have the consistency or longevity though. I also remember Hasek losing the starting job to Osgood in the 08 playoffs for the Wings. To be fair he was 3 years older than Marty last year at that time.

Brovalchuk 11-14-2012 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GM17 (Post 55771505)
because if I went to the NHL and somehow scored 12 goals in 4 minutes and then went scoreless for 20 years my "prime" would be better than anyone elses and therefore am the best who's ever played

This is the best thing ever. Soo for truth.

NJDevs26 11-14-2012 06:25 PM

Who were the other four in front of him besides Hasek? Roy, ?

Bleedred 11-14-2012 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJDevs26 (Post 55771657)
Who were the other four in front of him besides Hasek? Roy, ?

Lundqvist, and Thomas!:laugh: LOL just kidding.

Wingman77 11-14-2012 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJDevs26 (Post 55771657)
Who were the other four in front of him besides Hasek? Roy, ?

Plante, Hall, and Sawchuck

Zippy316 11-14-2012 07:04 PM

They have 27 "eligible voters"

What is that ********? :laugh:

Devils Mike* 11-14-2012 07:04 PM

I don't care much for where people think Brodeur ranks all time. Really, any type of all time list in any sport can never be determined accurately due to the wide variety of changes in the sport and it's better to really determine which goalie was the best in his time on a decade by decade basis instead of an all time one. Brodeur is the best goalie of the 2000's easily.

The type of hate that I dislike in regards to Brodeur is to actually demean his play on the basis of the team he played with. Although every Stanley Cup winner in history has always had an amazing core of players the theory always somehow stuck to Brodeur. It's just a funny theory in my mind because whenever any great goalie has been stuck with a team with flaws up front they've never won the Stanley Cup or even reached the Cup finals.

After the defensive unit left NJ and the team was much worse off Brodeur still showed that he was great without the SCF/Stanley Cup appearances. My best memory was in 2008 where the team really was god awful and Brodeur night in and night out just bailed the team out constantly. I respect Ovechkin getting the hart trophy for 65 goals that season but the most valuable player to their team that year was Brodeur. Finally the first year we get a really dope offensive core we reach the SCF and everyone respects Brodeur again. I just laugh. Give Brodeur a good core and there's always that large possibility of winning the cup. That's what makes him great, most goalies have good cores but it really doesn't guarantee a long run at all.

Zippy316 11-14-2012 07:05 PM

It was Roy, Hasek, Plante, Hall, Sawchuk, and then Brodeur.

In that order too.

GM17* 11-14-2012 07:26 PM

marty got to play behind stevens and niedermayer when Roy was stuck behind bums like Robinson, Chelios, Bourque, and Blake. And Hasek? LIDSTROM jeeze scrub city.

glenwo2 11-14-2012 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zippy316 (Post 55772361)
It was Roy, Hasek, Plante, Hall, Sawchuk, and then Brodeur.

In that order too.

Have no issue with the list EXCEPT for Hasek being #2 ahead of not only Marty but Plante and Hall as well??? GTFO with that noise! :rant:


(I meant those in the History board, not you, Zippy)

Zippy316 11-14-2012 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GM17 (Post 55772739)
marty got to play behind stevens and niedermayer when Roy was stuck behind bums like Robinson, Chelios, Bourque, and Blake. And Hasek? LIDSTROM jeeze scrub city.

I have a feeling that main argument that made Brodeur fall behind those guys was the question of his greatness because of the team in front of him. It's haunted him all these years and it's quite a shame, it seems to be the only real excuse people have for his play. The worst part is that he was just as critical and crucial to the system as the players in front of him. There was no better player to put behind a trap then him, his stick-handling, hybrid style, etc., allowed the trap to be even more effective with him behind it.

He became a "third defender" per se, which allowed the Devils to focus more on neutral zone and less on dump-ins, and all the little things that go along with it. Someone mentioned how he carried the post-lockout teams most of which had so many holes and no business being where they ended up, and the first time he actually got a solid team from top to bottom, he made the SCF. To me, that's not a coincidence.

People are also going to bring up that the teams Roy backstopped weren't as good as the teams Brodeur did, and same for Hasek. To me, the people on this site have a weird love affair with Hasek as they do with some current players as well.

Bleedred 11-14-2012 08:14 PM

Marty should have won the Hart Trophy in 07, and 08, or at least one of those years. We got shutout 11 times in 07/08. I think he deserved the Hart over the Vezina. Despite playing 75+ games it didn't help him in the playoffs, but we needed him to play that much just to make the playoffs.

In 06/07 he won like 48 games I think, and about over 30 games were won by only one goal. And no this was not a trap system either year. If Julien's system was trapping it was a piss poor excuse for one. Despite what fans, and even coaches, and players alike claimed we played every night those years, and some still do claim we play the trap.

If Marty gets injured either of the two years prior to the year he did, and Clemmensen plays full time those years we miss the playoffs. 08/09 was our highest scoring team since 00/01.

NJDevs26 11-14-2012 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GM17 (Post 55772739)
marty got to play behind stevens and niedermayer when Roy was stuck behind bums like Robinson, Chelios, Bourque, and Blake. And Hasek? LIDSTROM jeeze scrub city.

And who was Marty playing with this year when he led a team to the Cup Finals at 40 years old, beating the 'best goalie' in the league in the Conference Finals? I love Bryce Salvador, but he's not exactly Stevens and Nieds lol

Bleedred 11-14-2012 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJDevs26 (Post 55773695)
And who was Marty playing with this year when he led a team to the Cup Finals at 40 years old, beating the 'best goalie' in the league in the Conference Finals?

Norris Trophy winner Bryce Salvador, and nominees Andy Greene, and Mark Fayne!:sarcasm:

Seriously if Marty gets injured in 06/07, or 07/08, and Clemmy, and Weekes play those seasons, we miss the playoffs. Even with Clemmer's flashy impressive save percentage, and GAA. I don't even think Weekes, and Clemmensen won more than a couple games by only a goal that year. Highest scoring team we had since 00/01. Our 08/09 team scored 40+ goals more than the 06/07, and 07/09 teams.

Zippy316 11-14-2012 08:24 PM

I will say this though.

If anyone of you peaked into one of the discussion pages, they are analyzing a lot of different things. They definitely divulged into every aspect of the players careers, so it's not like these things were personal opinions etc.

That being said, I also asked in the main thread what were the main points for the players being above Brodeur and also for Brodeur being so low. There had to be something that they saw that we're missing, and I'm just curious to see what that is. After all, they are comparing guys who played in their fifties and sixties to now, so they had to do a lot of digging to find some stuff. Who knows, maybe our own opinions might change as well when we see what they've uncovered.

Right now, I don't really see how those guys could've possibly been above Brodeur, it seems as if he has everything going for him with all the records, etc. There must be something really big that we're missing in either Brodeur's career or the career of the other goaltenders.

GM17* 11-14-2012 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJDevs26 (Post 55773695)
And who was Marty playing with this year when he led a team to the Cup Finals at 40 years old, beating the 'best goalie' in the league in the Conference Finals?

please tell me you are adding to my post and not replying to it seriously

Bleedred 11-14-2012 08:29 PM

People will say Sawchuk, and Dryden, or Plante, but I won't go into them. I'm not old enough to have watched them. Though I remember a few old timers Jacques Lemaire off the top of my head(When he was coaching in Minnesota) saying Brodeur was the best he's ever seen. He also cited the pads, and equipment thing. Back in Plante, and Sawchuk, and Dryden's day a good save percentage was like 850. Equipment was smaller, and scoring was higher.

Luongo, and Lundqvist will ALWAYS have a higher save percentage than Marty career wise, and a lot of other guys will too. Up until two years ago Marty also had the best rebound control in the league, and possibly ever. Some of the other guys are very liberal with rebounds thus inflating save percentage through numbers of shots + saves.

Saugus 11-14-2012 08:39 PM

Because Marty doesn't have the edge in the stats that matter according to them. Whereas we're all perfectly happy with his three Cups and complete ownership of the record book.

njdevsfn95 11-14-2012 08:43 PM

Let them hate. The only reason future goalies can have a sniff at Brodeur's WINS record is because of THREE lockouts.

In the end, it is all about winning and Marty has done that more than anyone else. Unfortunately he doesnt have as many win in the postseason as Roy but its funny how he gets all the credit for his wins yet Brodeur's are all the "system."

Bleedred 11-14-2012 08:46 PM

I love the ''Roy is better because he won a Cup at the expense of Brodeur!'' argument too. I will admit that was the worst series Martin Brodeur has ever played, and I've seen them all. It beats out the Rangers 08 series by a wide margin. I don't blame him for costing the team that series though at all. We got shutout by Roy twice, and the second time we had a chance to clinch the series at home, and lost 4-0. I think he let in more unscreened, undeflected point shots that series alone, than he did all of last season. And he let in quite a few of those last season.

I don't know if it was fatigue or what. I do remember he had a winning record vs Roy before that series. I think we played him two or three times after that before he hung them up, and were shut out maybe every time. Roy was in Marty's head after that series for sure, and always let in something he shouldn't have after that series when we played the Avs with Roy in net.

Zippy316 11-14-2012 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saugus (Post 55774191)
Because Marty doesn't have the edge in the stats that matter according to them. Whereas we're all perfectly happy with his three Cups and complete ownership of the record book.

I think that's what it is.

Whatever overanalyzing of stats their doing may push the argument for other guys, but sometimes people analyze the stats too much.

For that reason, it's tough to gauge whether a goalie that probably none of them has seen is better than a goalie they've watched. You can read and look at stats all you want, but there's games I've watched where goalies are tremendous and their stats look so awful and vice versa.

For me, considering that Brodeur has pretty much ever record and that he played in a pretty great mini-dynasty, I find it hard for a good reasoning that puts them over Brodeur. Then again, I'm one to favor watching the game shows a better interpretation of a player than stats, stats are good to look at and they can indicate some things, but to best gauge how good a player is, you really need to watch them. They don't give stats for that amazing defensive effort or that play when the goalie knocks the puck away or when a player has great board control or when a player is in the right position, etc. etc.


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