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pdd 11-18-2012 11:15 PM

20 Greatest Red Wings (#9)
 
1) Gordie Howe 52%
2) Steve Yzerman 78%
3) Nicklas Lidstrom 86%
4) Ted Lindsay 39%
5) Terry Sawchuk 33% (Tiebreaker 52%)
6) Sergei Fedorov 56%
7) Alex Delvecchio 56%
8) Red Kelly 50%

Added Hasek.

Who is your vote for the 9th greatest Red Wing ever?

The Zetterberg Era 11-18-2012 11:21 PM

Was between Abel, Zetterberg, and Datsyuk. This one is a bit of projecting but I think after his next 7 years as captain Zetterberg overtakes the other two.

Datsyukian 11-19-2012 12:30 AM

Came down to Shanny and Zetterberg for me. Ended up going with Shanny but Zetterberg still has time left.

pdd 11-19-2012 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedWings19405 (Post 55872117)
Was between Abel, Zetterberg, and Datsyuk. This one is a bit of projecting but I think after his next 7 years as captain Zetterberg overtakes the other two.

I was between Abel, Z, Dats, Goodfellow, and Ozzie.

Ended up with Abel.

jkrx 11-19-2012 07:28 AM

Took Sid Abel but I guess there is a case to be made for anyone of Dats, Z and Goodfellow. Oddly enough the list does not include Mowers, Normie Smith or Bruneteau

RedWingsNow* 11-19-2012 09:52 AM

Sid Abel is a great Red Wings - especially when you factor in his post-playing career.

But as a player, he doesn't belong with Datsyuk or Shanny or Zetterberg

jkrx 11-19-2012 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bob (Post 55876421)
Sid Abel is a great Red Wings - especially when you factor in his post-playing career.

But as a player, he doesn't belong with Datsyuk or Shanny or Zetterberg

Awards:
-Hart Trophy winner in 1949
-4th in Hart voting in 1950
-2nd Team All-Star in 1942 as a Left Wing
-1st Team All-Star in 1949 as a Center
-1st Team All-Star in 1950 as a Center
-2nd Team All-Star in 1951 as a Center

Stats:
-5 times Top 7 in Points (2, 3, 4, 5, 7)
-Led the League in Goals in 1949
-3 Times Top 7 in Goals (1, 3, 7)
-8 Times Top 10 in Assists (3, 3, 5, 5, 5, 5, 7, 10)

Include that he missed two seasons in his prime due to WW2 and he definitly compares extremely well to Dats and Z.

pdd 11-19-2012 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bob (Post 55876421)
Sid Abel is a great Red Wings - especially when you factor in his post-playing career.

But as a player, he doesn't belong with Datsyuk or Shanny or Zetterberg

Shanny is the one who doesn't belong out of the foursome. He was great, but Abel, Dats, and Z have all been ELITE players as Red Wings. It's difficult to argue that Shanny was among the ten best forwards in the league as a Wing outside of 99-00. Abel, Dats, and Z I would say all had/are having an extended stretch as a top-five/ten forward. IMHO, Abel belongs above Delvecchio.

irishock 11-19-2012 05:53 PM

Should be between Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Z does have a Conn Smythe but Datsyuk has his Selkes, Lady Byngs and numbers to back it up. I think Datsyuk would still be Datsyuk without Zetterberg, but Zetterberg wouldn't look nearly as good without Pavel.

jaster 11-19-2012 06:03 PM

Zetterberg. Old guys suck.


Quote:

Originally Posted by irishock (Post 55888039)
Should be between Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Z does have a Conn Smythe but Datsyuk has his Selkes, Lady Byngs and numbers to back it up. I think Datsyuk would still be Datsyuk without Zetterberg, but Zetterberg wouldn't look nearly as good without Pavel.

I don't buy that at all. Aside from the fact that the two of them haven't regularly played on the same line in years, most of Zetterberg's best stretches in recent seasons have been when Datsyuk has been injured and out of the lineup. I think Zetterberg would be just as good without Datsyuk as he is with, at least as much as the inverse is true. Hank's a gamer. Often under-appreciated in that regard.

waltdetroit 11-19-2012 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 55884643)
IMHO, Abel belongs above Delvecchio.

Dats, Kelley, Ullman & Ogrod too (IMHO)

Sadekuuro 11-19-2012 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltdetroit (Post 55888335)
Dats, Kelley, Ullman & Ogrod too (IMHO)

Ullman is probably the most underrated Red Wing ever, but I really can't fathom putting John Ogrodnick with those other guys.

waltdetroit 11-19-2012 06:47 PM

I had seasons tickets from the early 70's on. For me, after Federov & Ullman, Grods was the most exciting player I have seen play for the wings - just my memory & opinion

jkrx 11-19-2012 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltdetroit (Post 55889249)
I had seasons tickets from the early 70's on. For me, after Federov & Ullman, Grods was the most exciting player I have seen play for the wings - just my memory & opinion

Exciting player sure but hes definitly not greater than the players I mentioned above.

The Zetterberg Era 11-19-2012 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 55872983)
I was between Abel, Z, Dats, Goodfellow, and Ozzie.

Ended up with Abel.

Agree I am surprised by where it looks like Shanahan will land on this list. There is a reason they gave his jersey to Nyquist. Shanny was important and I appreciate what he did for the team, he is a hard guy to place for me. But certainly after the first four guys you listed and I do lean towards Osgood over him slightly although that one would cause more thought if it was clearly down to just those two.

jkrx 11-19-2012 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltdetroit (Post 55888335)
Dats, Kelley, Ullman & Ogrod too (IMHO)

Kelly Should be around Delvecchio in the top. Doesnt matter where you rank them I find them interchangable. Ullman and Ogrodnick is a step behind them.

pdd 11-19-2012 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 55892499)
Kelly Should be around Delvecchio in the top. Doesnt matter where you rank them I find them interchangable. Ullman and Ogrodnick is a step behind them.

Ullman belongs ahead of Shanahan and probably deserves to have a banner hanging. He was a top ten scorer seven times in twelve and a half years with the Wings. The only thing he didn't do was win a Cup, and that's a function of the team being thoroughly dismantled just as he was arriving (Ted Lindsay being sent to Chicago for starting the NHLPA, and Glenn Hall being added as a throw-in, followed by Johnny Bucyk being dealt to Boston to reacquire Terry Sawchuk, to cover the loss of Hall. The return from Chicago? Johnny Wilson, Forbes Kennedy, Bill Preston, and Hank Bassen.

The two trades basically combined to make this:

LW Lindsay (elite winger)
LW Bucyk (top prospect)
G Hall (elite G)

for

LW Wilson (2nd liner)
C Kennedy (3rd liner)
? Preston (never played pro)
G Sawchuk (elite G)
G Bassen (backup G)

You would think that in giving Lindsay and Hall to Chicago, the trade would have brought the freshly signed Bobby Hull back instead of Wilson and Kennedy. Imagine how different things might have been then?

silkyjohnson50* 11-19-2012 09:58 PM

I agree with Eva that Shanny doesn't belong in the conversation yet. He was a huge piece to those teams thanks to his goal scoring ability and toughness, but he was always the 3rd best forward on Detroit (granted behind some great players). He was an elite power forward when he first came to Detroit, but never really an elite player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaster (Post 55888249)
Zetterberg. Old guys suck.




I don't buy that at all. Aside from the fact that the two of them haven't regularly played on the same line in years, most of Zetterberg's best stretches in recent seasons have been when Datsyuk has been injured and out of the lineup. I think Zetterberg would be just as good without Datsyuk as he is with, at least as much as the inverse is true. Hank's a gamer. Often under-appreciated in that regard.

Z's done a fantastic job of elevating his game when Datsyuk's been out in recent years, and that's just another reasons as to why he will be the next to wear the "C". But when Datsyuk and Zetterberg are both in the lineup, Datsyuk's been the better player more often. It's close and they're both franchise type centers, but the team simply looks different when Datsyuk is playing. As Ken Daniels said a couple of years ago, "as great as Lidstrom and Zetterberg are, Datsyuk is the straw that stirs the drink."

jaster 11-19-2012 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 (Post 55895579)
Z's done a fantastic job of elevating his game when Datsyuk's been out in recent years, and that's just another reasons as to why he will be the next to wear the "C". But when Datsyuk and Zetterberg are both in the lineup, Datsyuk's been the better player more often. It's close and they're both franchise type centers, but the team simply looks different when Datsyuk is playing. As Ken Daniels said a couple of years ago, "as great as Lidstrom and Zetterberg are, Datsyuk is the straw that stirs the drink."

That was a cute comment by Daniels, and while it may have some truth to it from a certain perspective, it doesn't really mean a whole lot. All three players have been extremely valuable to Detroit, but Lidstrom is easily the best of the 3, and was the most valuable. In that respect, Lidstrom was the straw that stirred the drink. It's just that Lidstrom's excellence, from an on-ice, tangible perspective, was very quiet and often difficult to notice for many fans, while Datsyuk is the opposite; very flashy, with his excellence on full display and in your face. Zetterberg, meanwhile, is more like Lidstrom that Datsyuk; more quietly excellent with his actual play. I can't even separate Hank and Dats by a full ranking. They are an A and a B for me. But I give the slight edge to Zetterberg.

The Zetterberg Era 11-19-2012 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 (Post 55895579)
Z's done a fantastic job of elevating his game when Datsyuk's been out in recent years, and that's just another reasons as to why he will be the next to wear the "C". But when Datsyuk and Zetterberg are both in the lineup, Datsyuk's been the better player more often. It's close and they're both franchise type centers, but the team simply looks different when Datsyuk is playing. As Ken Daniels said a couple of years ago, "as great as Lidstrom and Zetterberg are, Datsyuk is the straw that stirs the drink."

Well Zetterberg has historically been much more important to stirring the drink in the post-season. You know one of the things we like to attach more value in around Detroit. It simply cannot be argued that Datsyuk has been near Z in that area. Not to mention generally when we don't win one of the first things you can look at is Datsyuk didnt show up that year when the chips were down. Fine he has been roughed up, but Z has produced hurt in the post-season as well.

silkyjohnson50* 11-19-2012 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaster (Post 55896397)
That was a cute comment by Daniels, and while it may have some truth to it from a certain perspective, it doesn't really mean a whole lot. All three players have been extremely valuable to Detroit, but Lidstrom is easily the best of the 3, and was the most valuable. In that respect, Lidstrom was the straw that stirred the drink. It's just that Lidstrom's excellence, from an on-ice, tangible perspective, was very quiet and often difficult to notice for many fans, while Datsyuk is the opposite; very flashy, with his excellence on full display and in your face. Zetterberg, meanwhile, is more like Lidstrom that Datsyuk; more quietly excellent with his actual play. I can't even separate Hank and Dats by a full ranking. They are an A and a B for me. But I give the slight edge to Zetterberg.

From a career standpoint obviously Lidstrom is not in the conversation, as he's in a different one. When Daniels made the comment, which I and many other fans agreed with, we're talking 2010 or maybe even 2011. You can make a case that Lidstrom was as if not more valuable simply from the positional standpoint, but Datsyuk has been Detroit's best player IMO.

As flashy as Datsyuk is, I don't think the average fan who considers himself a "hardcore hockey fan" truly understands just how subtle his game actually is. That might be the best part of his game these days. His hockey IQ - in how he reads the game offensively and defensively don't always show up in a fancy stickhandling sequence. His ability to be disruptive and responsible defensively without even touching the player/puck is one of my favorite parts to his game. And I'm not talking about when he comes away with a takeaway.

When people refer to Datsyuk as "flashy" it's easy to see why, but he's so much more than a flashy player that labeling him simply as that is a bit of a slap in the face. That'd be like labeling Miguel Cabrera as "swing for the fences" type of guy.

silkyjohnson50* 11-19-2012 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedWings19405 (Post 55896695)
Well Zetterberg has historically been much more important to stirring the drink in the post-season. You know one of the things we like to attach more value in around Detroit. It simply cannot be argued that Datsyuk has been near Z in that area. Not to mention generally when we don't win one of the first things you can look at is Datsyuk didnt show up that year when the chips were down. Fine he has been roughed up, but Z has produced hurt in the post-season as well.

Z definitely has the edge in playoff play, but there were definitely circumstances that shouldn't be overlooked. Let's just look at post-lockout:

06: Datsyuk is injured. Not only does he miss the end of the regular season, but he misses game 1.

07: Breakout postseason performance; Best Detroit forward as they reach Conference Finals.

08: Great postseason; Detroit's 2nd best forward and good enough to win a Conn Smythe some years, but Z's edge in the Finals is the difference.

09: Offensively frustrating postseason for Datsyuk and one that I predicted prior to game 1 vs Columbus. Obviously the injury hampered the final two rounds, but the biggest reason IMO and the reason why I predicted it was Babcock's use of Hossa. Datsyuk was playing the best hockey of his career when on a line with Franzen and Holmstrom that regular season (they were put together around new years), but Z and Hossa were so poor together that Babcock re-switched the wingers prior to the playoffs. I'm convinced that if Babs leaves the Hossa off of Datsyuk's wing and keeps Franzen and Holmstrom there instead it's a different outcome. Regardless, great run by Z.

10: Solid postseason. Flip a coin as to which forward was Detroit's best - Pav or Z. I thought Pavel was a little better, but It's splitting hairs. Just don't mention Franzen!

11: Not just Detroit's best player, but the best player in the NHL thru 2 rounds. He was dominant and nearly beat SJ single handedly.

12: Z was better. Pav was never the same player after returning from his knee injury that season or postseason, as he didn't seem to have the burst, explosion, or strength on his skates. With that being said, Pavel also had two wingers who couldn't skate and was the player facing Weber and Suter every shift.

Huge Jackman 11-20-2012 04:03 AM

Two words: Bart Lebda :)

Henkka 11-20-2012 05:26 AM

Hands down Sid Abel.

His success (Hart Trophy, 3 Cups) and 12-year playing career and 10-year coaching career as a Red Wing makes him a no-brainer so far in this poll. People voting Shanahan, Datsyuk and Zetterberg are just...

...not honoring our history. Too young to understand those things.

The Abel#12 isn't hanging in the roof just for fun. Shanahan#14 never will be there. Voting Zetterberg or Datsyuk this early is just stupid. Their careers aren't even over yet.

jkrx 11-20-2012 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 55894955)
Ullman belongs ahead of Shanahan and probably deserves to have a banner hanging. He was a top ten scorer seven times in twelve and a half years with the Wings. The only thing he didn't do was win a Cup, and that's a function of the team being thoroughly dismantled just as he was arriving (Ted Lindsay being sent to Chicago for starting the NHLPA, and Glenn Hall being added as a throw-in, followed by Johnny Bucyk being dealt to Boston to reacquire Terry Sawchuk, to cover the loss of Hall. The return from Chicago? Johnny Wilson, Forbes Kennedy, Bill Preston, and Hank Bassen.

The two trades basically combined to make this:

LW Lindsay (elite winger)
LW Bucyk (top prospect)
G Hall (elite G)

for

LW Wilson (2nd liner)
C Kennedy (3rd liner)
? Preston (never played pro)
G Sawchuk (elite G)
G Bassen (backup G)

You would think that in giving Lindsay and Hall to Chicago, the trade would have brought the freshly signed Bobby Hull back instead of Wilson and Kennedy. Imagine how different things might have been then?

When did I say he werent ahead of Shanahan? I wrote that he was a step behind Kelly and Delvecchio. I remember that trade and curse it to this day. Adams got his though but it took a while.


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