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Gibsons Finest 02-13-2005 09:58 PM

Anaheim/Ottawa Proposal
 
Following a trend from something I suggested in the Anaheim/Edmonton proposal thread, here's something I think'd work for both teams:

To Anaheim: Martin Havlat, Todd White

To Ottawa: Sergei Fedorov, Tampa Bay's 2nd Rounder in '05 or Anaheim's 3rd rounder in 2006


I'd hope this could then allow Anaheim to sign Eric Lindros at a reduced rate. If both moves happened, here'd be my Anaheim line-up:

Chistov-Lindros-Havlat
Lupul-White-Sykora
Leclerc-Rucchin-Niedermayer
Getzlaf/Holmqvist-Pahlsson-Konopka

Ozolinsh-Vishnevski
Skoula-Carney
Popovic-Salei

Giguere
Bryzgalov


Not too bad IMO. Even though they lose Fedorov, I'd think they might make the playoffs with that team.

I'll make an attempt at Ottawa's line-up as well:

Bondra(I think they'll resign him)-Fedorov-Hossa
Schaefer-Spezza-Alfredsson
Varada-Smolinski-Fisher
Niel-Vermette-Langfeld

Chara-Phillips
Redden-DeVries
Volchenkov-Pothier

Hasek
Prusek

Feel free to flame me about the line-up, Sens fabs, and also if you don't like the proposal.

trentmccleary 02-13-2005 10:07 PM

Why wouldn't Ottawa just sign Lindros and keep Havlat?

A buttload of money, Martin Havlat, Todd White and Lindros >>>>> Fedorov, 1 draft pick (2nd or 3rd).

Also, I think most have pegged White's value around a 3rd rounder.
Which makes that deal... Havlat for Fedorov straight up. Despite what? a dozen years age difference. People on this board get annoyed when they lose 3 years.

Egil 02-13-2005 10:08 PM

Havlat has much more TRADE value than Federov, so NO DEAL unless Anaheim really sweetens the deal.

not quite yoda 02-13-2005 10:10 PM

I don`t see why Lindros would want to play in Anaheim. Maybe the West is better for him given his head problems, butt I still don`t see why he`d ever choose Anaheim. The only reason is if they offered him way more money than any other team but I frankly don`t see anuone (incl. ANH) spending a fortune on that kind of a risky player. Especially given the `new economic order`.

As for the trade, I see Ottawa getting ripped off. Havlat has far far more mileage left in him then Fedorov. And OTT is very much still a team of the future. They don`t HAVE to win the Cup this year. Most their players arestill quite young.

Havlat is capable of out producing Fedorov offensively today and tomorrow. The defence doesn`t make up for the difference in age (and salary cost).

I don`t even know why Ottawa would give up White in the deal on top of that.

Hockeyfan02 02-13-2005 10:13 PM

I wouldnt want Lindros on the Ducks. I think Coates could use the saved cash on FAs who arent injury prone and a shadow of their former selves.

McDonald19 02-13-2005 10:38 PM

Once Ducks get Feds contract off the books they aren't going to go and sign a Lindros or anyone else.

Trade proposal:

Federov and 2005 2nd

for

Havlat

Ducks lineup with Ozolinsh, Salei, and Niedermayer gone as UFAs once the lockout is settled. (UFA age will be dropped at least one year making Salei and Nieds UFA's July 1st to go along with Ozolinsh who will already be a UFA July 1st)

Leclerc-Rucchin-Havlat
Chistov-Getzlaf-Lupul
McDonald-Pahlsson-Sykora
Holmqvist-Konopka-Smirnov/Burnett

Carney-Skoula
Vishnevski-Smid
Popovic-Foster
Ward

Giguere
Bryzgalov

trentmccleary 02-13-2005 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McDonald19
Federov and 2005 2nd
for
Havlat

- Fedorov's contract would kill us. 4 more years at what? $8M average.
- Havlat for Fedorov is horrible asset management.
It would be worth it for a Cup... but as each day/month/year passes, which player of the two is more likely to help that come to fruitition?

Dark Knight 02-13-2005 11:17 PM

Lindros will sign with the Leafs :yo:

AnThGrt 02-13-2005 11:21 PM

Federov is to old.... Sens as everyone is saying would be getting ripped off Havlat is still growing and doing as good as Federov is right now if not better. Lindros if anywhere is joining the Kings!!! Cmon people with his injury history there is no better team suited for him (No with all seriousness he would be perfect fit in LA - Before lock out they were actually REALLY close to deal so i see him joining LA with the loss of Allison and Deadmarsh we need a power foward and #1 Center who is injury proned :dunce: )

trentmccleary 02-13-2005 11:39 PM

Lindros, Allison, Zhamnov, Demitra, Stumpel are all still available.

I think Zhamnov stand outs the most right now. He's a year younger than Fedorov. Has produced just a shade below Fedorov the past few years. Tons of skill and his career isn't in jeopardy. He hasn't had much playoff experience, but did very well last season. I bet he could be signed for half of what Fedorov is making. Without giving up Havlat.

Gibsons Finest 02-14-2005 12:51 AM

I added Lindros to Anaheim's roster to be a 2 or 3 year mentor to Getzlaf. They're similar players, and having Lindros there to help Getzlaf out may make him a better player. Also, apparently Lindros was in Anaheim earlier this offseason. Although it might not mean anything, it could mean he'd be interested in playing there.

As for why Ottawa does it, salary or not, they need a Sergei Fedorov. Allison, Lindros, Zhamnov, etc. are inexperienced in the playoffs to say the least, and would do no better than Spezza or White at 1st line center. Fedorov is a dominant playoff performer, and a true #1 center, which is what they need. Havlat is young and growing, and he put up amazing numbers on the 3rd line, but that's not going to win them a cup.

The '89 Calgary Flames are the best example of this. They traded a growing prospect for Rob Ramage before their run, and it paid big dividends, helping them towards a cup. Ramage wouldn't do much afterwards, but the guy they traded became one of the greatest scorers of all-time. His name's Brett Hull. But if you ask that Calgary GM at the time, he'd have done that trade over and over again. And look at Tampa Bay, they traded the 4th overall pick to Philly for Ruslan Fedotenko and a 2nd rounder, which went for Brad Lukowich(I think). That 4th overall pick became Joni Pitkanen, who should become an awesome star defenseman. So does Tampa regret the trade? Not likely. Lukowich wasn't a big part, but he did help them win a cup, and Fedotenko scored the cup-winner. Not what they projected, in fact, they kind of got lucky, but it still shows that giving up prospects can lead to cup victory.

While Ottawa fans are obviously opposed to this, as Havlat has high trade value, this IMO is the move that gets them a cup. You can sign all the Lindros' and the Allisons and the Zhamnovs you want, it won't help them reach their goal of getting to the cup. Fedorov does. With Yzerman aging, there's probably only two other centermen who are are great in the playoffs, if not greater, than Fedorov, but I'm sure Colorado would rather not trade Forsberg or Sakic at all. Even if Yzerman was in his prime, it'd be even tougher to get him from Detroit, anyway.

When the NHL resumes, if they go on, and they win the cup without making a move like this, with Spezza as their 1st line center, and with Havlat winning the Conn Smythe, that'd be great, and it could happen, I just wouldn't put too much money on it.

BTW, I included White in the deal to get rid of the large amount of centers Ottawa has, and also to even out the salary a bit. If they'd rather keep him, by all means, just leave him out, and make it Fedorov+a 2nd or 3rd straight up for Havlat.

kenabnrmal 02-14-2005 01:18 AM

I'd love to see Lindros on the Ducks, but I don't see it happening. I especially don't see the Sens dealing Havlat at all, let alone for an albeit underrated Fedorov who has a monster contract and significantly less years ahead of him. Feds would help Ottawa, but not THAT much more than the guys that the Sens could get for nothing.

Darth Milbury 02-14-2005 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller
I added Lindros to Anaheim's roster to be a 2 or 3 year mentor to Getzlaf. They're similar players, and having Lindros there to help Getzlaf out may make him a better player. Also, apparently Lindros was in Anaheim earlier this offseason. Although it might not mean anything, it could mean he'd be interested in playing there.

As for why Ottawa does it, salary or not, they need a Sergei Fedorov. Allison, Lindros, Zhamnov, etc. are inexperienced in the playoffs to say the least, and would do no better than Spezza or White at 1st line center. Fedorov is a dominant playoff performer, and a true #1 center, which is what they need. Havlat is young and growing, and he put up amazing numbers on the 3rd line, but that's not going to win them a cup.


BTW, I included White in the deal to get rid of the large amount of centers Ottawa has, and also to even out the salary a bit. If they'd rather keep him, by all means, just leave him out, and make it Fedorov+a 2nd or 3rd straight up for Havlat.

You're selling Lindros short here. He did captain the Flyers to the finals, and play in multplie Canada Cups. He is perfectly capable of leading a team to the cup.

Be that as it may, expecting this sort of return for Federov is the current climate is not realistic. Over and over, we've seen that expensive vets with big contracts have little to no trade value. I honestly don't think you would get Ottawa to bite on Federov's contract at any price, but if they did, the Ducks would get nothing but picks and prospects in return.

You can look to the sort of return Washington got for Jagr as a guide. I really don't see Federov as being anymore marketable right now.


Players like Havlat and Spezza (discussed in the other thread) are way, way, way out of the question.

Epsilon 02-14-2005 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
You're selling Lindros short here. He did captain the Flyers to the finals, and play in multplie Canada Cups. He is perfectly capable of leading a team to the cup.

Lindros has already proven he doesn't have what it takes. He's failed to lead a team to a Cup, and the Canadian olympic team built around him could not get it done either. He's a passenger, not a leader.

bert 02-14-2005 02:26 AM

Even if you dont bring the salary into it Federov is 12 years older than Martin Havlat who outscored him last year.

Obviously Federov has more intagibles but they arent worth 12 years and 8 times the salary.

Gibsons Finest 02-14-2005 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bert
Even if you dont bring the salary into it Federov is 12 years older than Martin Havlat who outscored him last year.

Obviously Federov has more intagibles but they arent worth 12 years and 8 times the salary.

The 8x the salary part also won't last long, even with a new CBA. Havlat's a star in the making, and he's going to want to be paid like one. A year or two like last season and the $2.3 million he's making(1 or 2 yr deal, correct me if I'm wrong) might just spring up to $4-6 million.

bert 02-14-2005 03:10 AM

First of all if Havlat was making more than Federov I still wouldnt make the deal due to the fact that Havlat outscores Federov with less icetime and is 12 years younger.

We officially dont know what the roleback will be. Second of all you cant use the new cba as a reducer in what Federov makes and not what Havlat is going to make.

Whats with all the Havlat deals anyways, the sens should keep him. He is young very good and cheap two things that a new CBA will value more than ever.

A Vermette Federov deal is more realistic.

kenabnrmal 02-14-2005 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epsilon
Lindros has already proven he doesn't have what it takes. He's failed to lead a team to a Cup, and the Canadian olympic team built around him could not get it done either. He's a passenger, not a leader.

Bourque failed quite a bit to lead a team to the Cup before winning. Same with Yzerman. Lindros lead the team to the finals against one of the strongest teams in memory. The Olympic team built around him was flawless until they ran into Hasek in a shootout (if I remember correctly). He hasn't done it yet, but he hasn't proven that he can't. Like Darth said, you're selling him short.

trentmccleary 02-14-2005 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bert
A Vermette Federov deal is more realistic.

I still think we'd say no.
Fedorov is about as desirable to us right now as Bobby Holik.
To the Sens (who have to make every decision perfect in our small market), his contract puts him into negative value. Probably the same for half the league too. He's not worth taking for free with that contract.

trentmccleary 02-14-2005 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller
The '89 Calgary Flames are the best example of this. Rob Ramage for Brett Hull.
Tampa Bay, traded the 4th overall pick (Pitkanen) to Philly for Ruslan Fedotenko and a 2nd rounder, which went for Brad Lukowich(I think). So does Tampa regret the trade?

Does Philly regret the Oates trade? Toronto regret giving up the picks that became Niedermayer and Luongo? Montreal regret trading Leclair and Desjardins? Detroit regret picking up Schneider and Lang? Does Dallas regret picking up a declining center for huge dollars, while they let their best D-man walk away?

For every move you can find that worked out... I can find 10 that didn't.
No matter how you slice it... Zhamnov, Havlat & a $1M to spare are much better than Fedorov.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller
While Ottawa fans are obviously opposed to this, as Havlat has high trade value, this IMO is the move that gets them a cup. You can sign all the Lindros' and the Allisons and the Zhamnovs you want, it won't help them reach their goal of getting to the cup. Fedorov does.

Teams win Cups, not individual players. Fedorov improves our chances, but is not a lock and his acquisition would certainly narrow our window. We'd give up Havlat and probably lose for nothing Redden or Chara as a restricted free agent (like the 3rd we got for Bonk).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller
When the NHL resumes, if they go on, and they win the cup without making a move like this, with Spezza as their 1st line center, and with Havlat winning the Conn Smythe, that'd be great, and it could happen, I just wouldn't put too much money on it.

That does sound unlikely. It's probably a good thing that Havlat, Spezza, White, Smoke and Vermette would be support offensive players behind Hossa and Alfie in the playoffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller
BTW, I included White in the deal to get rid of the large amount of centers Ottawa has, and also to even out the salary a bit. If they'd rather keep him, by all means, just leave him out, and make it Fedorov+a 2nd or 3rd straight up for Havlat.

White is our cheapest center and by far the best value on the team. If this deal were remotely possible, Anaheim would have to take on our mistakes (ie: Smoke, deVries and maybe one other player).

Pure Slaughter Value 02-14-2005 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trentmccleary
I still think we'd say no.
Fedorov is about as desirable to us right now as Bobby Holik.
To the Sens (who have to make every decision perfect in our small market), his contract puts him into negative value. Probably the same for half the league too. He's not worth taking for free with that contract.

Isn't it at the point where Ottawa basically has to win a Cup or a season is a dismal failure and advances marquee players' ages and subsequent contract demands?

The point in the sport is to win the Cup and right now the Sens are banking on Spezza to be the 1st line center for a Cup-Contending team?

Given Ottawa's depth on RW and their failure to do "enough" in the playoffs I would trade Havlat (and his sparkling .5ppg in the po's....I know, the 3rd line thing, less offensive players to play with....blah blah blah) for Fedorov in a HEARTBEAT....regardless of the year remaining on his contract.

But I'd be more concerned with winning the Cup than having 100pt. underachieving seasons where I'm bounced in the po's by the 2nd round.

NFITO 02-14-2005 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pure Slaughter Value
Isn't it at the point where Ottawa basically has to win a Cup or a season is a dismal failure and advances marquee players' ages and subsequent contract demands?

The point in the sport is to win the Cup and right now the Sens are banking on Spezza to be the 1st line center for a Cup-Contending team?

Given Ottawa's depth on RW and their failure to do "enough" in the playoffs I would trade Havlat (and his sparkling .5ppg in the po's....I know, the 3rd line thing, less offensive players to play with....blah blah blah) for Fedorov in a HEARTBEAT....regardless of the year remaining on his contract.

But I'd be more concerned with winning the Cup than having 100pt. underachieving seasons where I'm bounced in the po's by the 2nd round.

you have to consider a lot more than just replacing Havlat with Fedorov in the lineup.

I agree, Fedorov makes their chances to win the Cup a lot better... but at what cost? What happens if Ottawa doesn't win the Cup with Fedorov? You know it could happen... you could add Fedorov, Sakic, Forsberg, Foote and Blake to that team and they still might not win a Cup - not with a very big question mark in Hasek and his health in net.

So what then happens if Ottawa deals Havlat for Fedorov, take on his 4 yr contract at 8mill per, and then not make the playoffs? how does this fit into possible salary caps? what happens to others RFAs when they need a new contract - a guy like Hossa for example?

It's just way too big a risk to a team like Ottawa to add Fedorov to begin with... and then to take that risk by moving Havlat is insane.

If Anahiem wants to get rid of Fedorov's contract, they can't expect to get back a top player for it... that's why players like Fedorov, or Holik, or Guerin will more than likely stay on their current teams, and if they are moved, they'll net very little in return, or their teams will have to pick up a massive chunk of that contract... these guys are all signed long term at big money, with the uncertainties about caps and taxes in the NHL now...

Fedorov for Havlat is fair... if you pick up 3/4 of Fedorov's annual salary for the remaining years - and even that I'm sure most Ottawa fans would pass. other than that, why would Ottawa do this, and not simply add a UFA center? the risk is a lot lot less, and while there isn't anyone as good as Fedorov, you have to ask whether Fedorov is better for the team, or a guy like Lindros/Zhamnov/Allison/Demitra AND Havlat?

Pure Slaughter Value 02-14-2005 08:40 AM

Totally understandable Nuckfan, very valid points.

I still would do Federov/Havlat in a heartbeat, especially with an aging (yet probably still effective Hasek).

Basically, the Sens have had a chance to make an impact in the po's and have not done so. As good as they are going to be for many years you're looking at having Spezza and Emery (I think that's the goalie prospect) lead the team at two of the most important positions throughout a playoffs for the next couple of years (while Hossa, Alfreddson, Chara, Redden all gain experience and the right to renew their contracts)...can't see that being enough to beat teams that have better, experienced players at the #1 center and goalie slots...

Obviously there's more than just those two spots, but with the exception of Roy inexperienced goalies rarely win the Cup.

The FA approach is a way to replenish at both spots, but I'd go for the Cup now and not chance the Allison's, Lindros', etc. I'd go with a proven playoff warrior that's extremely effective at both ends of the ice and has several Stanley Cups and individual awards to prove it.

It would be a gamble, that's for sure!

NFITO 02-14-2005 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pure Slaughter Value

It would be a gamble, that's for sure!

it's a bigger gamble than it would be in any other year though, given the uncertainties around the NHL.

What happens is there is a cap? Ottawa's payroll is already high, and they aren't exactly a market that can keep up with a high luxury tax, if there is one.

right now teams don't know what to expect - and in any such situation - in ANY business in the world, all gambles are that much more risky, and all organizations avoid taking them until certainties become more clear.

best case scenario is that Ottawa wins a Cup with Fedorov - now calculate the % of that happening.

worst case scenario is that Ottawa loses in the first round, Hasek is hurt and they are forced to go with Prusek as their starter in the playoffs, while Fedorov's salary plays a huge role in not being able to re-sign Hossa and/or Chara, etc...

how much better off is the team?

basically - and I think you totally fail to understand this point - asset values are based on a lot of things, not just the skill level of a player - and salaries, contracts, implications on a CBA and the current NHL fiscal landscape, and right now all that weighs in much more heavily than skill. We're not talking about a Cup anymore, we're talking about the long term strength of a franchise. we're also talking about a huge labour war, where a small market team dealing away a future young talent on a workable contract, for a high priced vet on a multiyear huge contract, is not going to play into what the ownership and NHL is trying to do. Ottawa - and the league would interfere here as much as the NHLPA has interfered with players speaking out for resolution - would simply not make a deal like this given the CBA situation.

Players like Fedorov have little value ... Havlat is too much to give up for that. If Ottawa wants Fedorov, IMO all they'd have to do is let Anahiem know they can take that contract off their hands, and it wouldn't take anything close to Havlat to get it done.

Egil 02-14-2005 09:47 AM

If Ottawa wanted Federov at 8 Mil per year, we would have offered it to him last summer, and gotten him for FREE. As such, we can safely assume that Ottawa did not value Federov at $8 mil per year, when wanting to get him for free, so why would we now do so while throwing in Havlat?

Lets state this one more time, a signed UFA, immediately after he signs his contract, has NEGATIVE trade value with every other team in the league (who offered LESS money for him). I don't care HOW good the player is, but after they sign with the highest bidder, they have NEGATIVE trade value. Federov underperformed last year, so his value, if anything, went down from when you signed him. I wouldn't give you a 9th round draft pick for Federov.

Now, has you proposed this earlier, I'm sure we could have traded you Bonk and Lalime for Federov though. If you want to get rid of Federov, you are going to have to scratch the other teams back with money, be it paying a large chunk of his contract, or getting back another player with a bad contract. Ottawa doesn't really have anyone with a "bad" contract at the moment (Bonk did but he is gone), so we are not the best partner for this.


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