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ATLANTARANGER* 02-15-2005 10:03 AM

Whether a deal gets done or not the NHLPA
 
has effectively killed any chance of the NLRB declaring an impasse!
The players have come way off their initial negotiating point, while the NHL was budged so little. This tells the NLRB who was and is serious about negotiating in good and faith and who is the phoney in this owner caused labor problem. Once again Gary Bettman is taken to school by Goodenow and the NHLPA.

Fletch 02-15-2005 10:12 AM

Not sure...
 
if he was 'taken to school', although I'd love to think so, but the Players made a bigger concession than I think they wanted to, but ultimately wanted to get a season going.

Slewfoot 02-15-2005 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER
has effectively killed any chance of the NLRB declaring an impasse!
The players have come way off their initial negotiating point, while the NHL was budged so little. This tells the NLRB who was and is serious about negotiating in good and faith and who is the phoney in this owner caused labor problem. Once again Gary Bettman is taken to school by Goodenow and the NHLPA.

One could argue that if Goodenow was going to concede to a cap , he should have done it 2 months ago so the players wouldn't have lost as much of their salaries as they did?!?!

Levitate 02-15-2005 10:28 AM

Quote:

One could argue that if Goodenow was going to concede to a cap , he should have done it 2 months ago so the players wouldn't have lost as much of their salaries as they did?!?!
what does this have to do with the original post?

and even if goodenow conceded a cap 2 months ago, there's no guarantee an actual deal would have been in place. it might have just emboldened the NHL to push harder to get a better deal for themselves. "ok you'll take a cap? alright, well that's good but now we don't want arbitration, and we want to keep the FA age around 30, and we want a revenue link at 50%" etc etc

it's just not that simple

sickboy35 02-15-2005 10:33 AM

well i've been saying for a while now the players were conceding the most while the owners greed is whats seem to be showing through. the players accept a cap plus a 24% roll back in saleries and now apparently the difference is 12 million dollars seperating the two sides. get it done say at 46 and get going with the season already. yeah its a late offer but at least they are trying to help the sport unlike "give me basketball" bettman!

Kodiak 02-15-2005 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slewfoot
One could argue that if Goodenow was going to concede to a cap , he should have done it 2 months ago so the players wouldn't have lost as much of their salaries as they did?!?!

Two months ago, there was no indication that the NHL was willing to come of its linkage stance, so if the NHLPA offered an unlinked cap, it would have been shot down in a second.

ATLANTARANGER* 02-15-2005 11:32 AM

You are missing the point
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Slewfoot
One could argue that if Goodenow was going to concede to a cap , he should have done it 2 months ago so the players wouldn't have lost as much of their salaries as they did?!?!

the being taken to school implies that bettman's leverage in going to the NLRB has been effectively removed, he was outmaneuvered again. His basis for going that route has been severely, if not permanently blocked. This is all about presentation, position.

Fletch 02-15-2005 11:34 AM

Also...
 
the NHLPA wanted to get a better deal, as did the League. This last-ditch effort was to get the season going and end the stalemate.

Slewfoot 02-15-2005 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER
the being taken to school implies that bettman's leverage in going to the NLRB has been effectively removed, he was outmaneuvered again. His basis for going that route has been severely, if not permanently blocked. This is all about presentation, position.

Agreed , I missed the point you were making regarding 'taken to school'.

Slewfoot 02-15-2005 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levitate
what does this have to do with the original post?

I was responding to the quote "Once again Gary Bettman is taken to school by Goodenow and the NHLPA" which was in the original post. It has been pointed out by the poster that I misread the intention of this quote.

Fish 02-15-2005 12:54 PM

I hear a lot of comments about "last ditch effort", "if a season" etc...let me offer my perspective.

The mode of operation for professional negotiators, especially those between groups that have had an up and down relationship in the past is to try and create as much leverage as they can before they go into the negotiations. The past few months has been a process of elevating leverage and attempting to undermine support on the other side by using the press to communicate with the opposing constituency.

The point at which you negotiate is either just before you're about to lose your support on your side (before the other side knows it) or at the point when a significant external factor arises. In this case it was that external factor...the cancellation of the season that was the signal to the NHLPA that it was time to negotiate.

The NHL also created an opening with the Saturday comment by Daly that the league was willing to move off of the linkage issue.

While this hasn't gone completely as planned for the NHL by my estimation (I think they expected the players to come unglued sooner) I think the NHL was the one holding the keys (the cancellation notice) and the NHLPA was waiting for that.

Anything you've heard in the press up until this point (and perhaps beyond) was managed and controlled by the two sides...not perfectly for sure, but certainly with purpose. The result is the point at which we're at today...the verge of a new deal.

While I'd like to claim I knew this all along, I'll admit that it wasn't until Saturday morning that I realized this and I have been confident ever since...and I do feel kind of used.

Fletch 02-15-2005 01:02 PM

At the same time, Fish...
 
the NHL decided to open the door realizing that the NHLPA wasn't going to do anything until they did something. Bettman began by talking about cancellation if pen was being put to paper. That didn't work. They moved off linkage, which n conjunction with the cancellation of the season (which I don't think many owners would want as with many clubs, something can be salvaged instead of dark arenas) prompted the NHLPA to offer something that would not be accepted, but moved them closer in terms of a concept and that's the framework from which a deal should be struck. Unfortunately, they're not holed-up in a room negotiated the finer points, but now they're stuck on thresholds, and the NHL has not accepted the tax concept, at least not to my knowledge, and the tax concept helps create a larger cap threshold. And at least this time, it appears to be a real tax.

Levitate 02-15-2005 01:07 PM

Quote:

While I'd like to claim I knew this all along, I'll admit that it wasn't until Saturday morning that I realized this and I have been confident ever since...and I do feel kind of used.
i agree on the "used" statement..i think the fans have been used and taken for granted by both sides and even the media. all the ideas of "hardcore hockey fans will come back even after a long lockout, so it won't hurt the league that bad" smacks of taking the fans for granted to me. maybe it's true but it doesn't make it right to use us and treat us like dirt

Fish 02-15-2005 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch
the NHL decided to open the door realizing that the NHLPA wasn't going to do anything until they did something. Bettman began by talking about cancellation if pen was being put to paper. That didn't work. They moved off linkage, which n conjunction with the cancellation of the season (which I don't think many owners would want as with many clubs, something can be salvaged instead of dark arenas) prompted the NHLPA to offer something that would not be accepted, but moved them closer in terms of a concept and that's the framework from which a deal should be struck. Unfortunately, they're not holed-up in a room negotiated the finer points, but now they're stuck on thresholds, and the NHL has not accepted the tax concept, at least not to my knowledge, and the tax concept helps create a larger cap threshold. And at least this time, it appears to be a real tax.

Of course...but it was about trying to get the NHLPA to move and that was my point...neither side wants the season to be cancelled, but the league held the keys to that.

As for tax threshhold, check out TSN, the owners reportedly offered their 40 million cap WITH a luxury tax. I wouldn't get hung up on what you're hearing, they're going to get a deal done the one outstanding piece is being negotiated out from the respective positions, but the obstacle isn't there any more.

NYFAN 02-15-2005 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish
Of course...but it was about trying to get the NHLPA to move and that was my point...neither side wants the season to be cancelled, but the league held the keys to that.

As for tax threshhold, check out TSN, the owners reportedly offered their 40 million cap WITH a luxury tax. I wouldn't get hung up on what you're hearing, they're going to get a deal done the one outstanding piece is being negotiated out from the respective positions, but the obstacle isn't there any more.

Fish, am I wrong, or is it imperative they play this season in order to keep the draft legitimate, the fans appeased,and not create some crazy weighted lottery lottery.


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