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-   -   Finns with NHL potential (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1296493)

ElHefe 11-22-2012 02:10 PM

Finns with NHL potential
 
The top finnish prospects that have all the tools to become solid NHL-players is the theme for this thread. I would like you to tell at least a few finnish prospects that YOU believe will be playing in a top 9 lineup(forwards) or top 4 lineup(dmen) MORE LIKELY in NHL than in Europe. I don't include goalies to this conversation because we have them already enough and no doubt in the future.

What I include as an example prospect to this conversation is a forward or a dman who's born after 91 but does not need to have been drafted yet. With this I mean one can also consider 95- and after born - players.

Here is my top :

Forwards:

Barkov - at this point he is locked to become a solid NHL first line center
Granlund - top2 center in Minnesota for years to come
Armia - he has all the tools to become a top 6 winger in NHL, he just needs to get more balanced
Teräväinen - combination of skill and speed, I see alot NHL-potential in him. A future top 6 winger/center

Dmen:

Määttä - top4 alround dman in an NHL club, absolutely no doubt about that
Ristolainen - once he gets drafted, he will be a potential franchise dman who plays 30 minutes per game.
Vatanen - small but skilled and explosive. PP-specialist and a fine dman once he starts to understand north-american hockey.

ToBBa 11-24-2012 06:21 AM

Salomäki - year ago he was imo a future top9 center in NHL. Now I think he might have a chance to center Predators' 3rd or 4th line.
Pokka - He has potential to be top 4 dman in kinda weak Islanders D.
Hakanpää - He has potential to be a good defensive dman but I dont really have a big trust on him.

Jeepers Creeper 11-24-2012 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElHefe (Post 55963983)
Forwards:

Barkov - at this point he is locked to become a solid NHL first line center
.

That's a bit of an overstatement. Barkov is awesome and has the potential to become an elite player, but he isn't guaranteed to become even a regular NHL player at this point, let alone a first liner.

FiLe 11-24-2012 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElHefe (Post 55963983)
I would like you to tell at least a few finnish prospects that YOU believe will be playing in a top 9 lineup(forwards) or top 4 lineup(dmen) MORE LIKELY in NHL than in Europe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElHefe (Post 55963983)
What I include as an example prospect to this conversation is a forward or a dman who's born after 91 but does not need to have been drafted yet. With this I mean one can also consider 95- and after born - players.

These two lines are contradicting each other. If you're to calculate solid odds, the players who fit the latter description are in no way having a more likely chance to make it than it break it (note, this doesn't translate to "no chance at all").


This is kind of a moot thread in its current form. I believe everyone who frequents these boards and especially the Finnish section know who those players are, so all we're doing currently is chewing their own gum for them.

Now, this thread should be far more interesting if it was NOT about done deals or top prospects, but those who still have to beat the odds to make it, but may be seeing regular ice time one day if everything goes to plan. Ie. the lesser prospects and those who could make it the Ville Leino way (not the best example of a top player, but still a good example of showing that it IS possible).

ElHefe 11-24-2012 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeepers Creeper (Post 55995841)
he isn't guaranteed to become even a regular NHL player at this point, let alone a first liner.

You are wrong and you should know that. He is already guaranteed to become an NHL-player, why else would all the agents and managers around the globe rank him so high for next year's NHL-draft as it will be one of the most high quality drafts in a recent history. He is one of the best players in Finland's pro hockey league and he is 17 years old. He is a damn phenomenon.

Tormentor 11-24-2012 05:28 PM

Anyone wanna share their current top-10? In other words, who are your favorites from guys like Aaltonen, Aittokallio, Armia, Barkov, Donskoi, Eronen, Gibson, Ma.Granlund, Mi.Granlund, Hakanpää, Hartikainen, Haula, J.Ikonen, Jokipakka, Kiviaho, Korpisalo, Lehkonen, Lindbohm, Lindell, Määttä, Nättinen, Ortio, Pakarinen, Perhonen, Pokka, Pulkkinen, Ristolainen, Ruuttu, Salomäki, Teräväinen, Tikkinen, Tuohimaa, Vainonen, Vatanen and others?

MaNNe 11-24-2012 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElHefe (Post 56002951)
You are wrong and you should know that. He is already guaranteed to become an NHL-player, why else would all the agents and managers around the globe rank him so high for next year's NHL-draft as it will be one of the most high quality drafts in a recent history. He is one of the best players in Finland's pro hockey league and he is 17 years old. He is a damn phenomenon.

No one at this point is a "guaranteed NHL-player" let alone a bloody first liner.... Barkov does have potential to become a first line center, maybe even a very good one. But saying he is a lock for that is pure homerism and ignorance at its finest. You never know what could happen. History is full of examples of players looking very promising not being able to live up to their hype.

As for Tormentor my top-10 NHL-prospects list for Finns right now would be:


1. Barkov
2. Granlund
3. Vatanen
4. Armia
5. Teräväinen
6. Ristolainen
7. Määttä
8. Ortio
9. Hakanpää
10. Salomäki



This was harder than I thought it would be :P. Salomäki could easily be swapped with one of Eronen, Lindell, Pokka, Mi. Granlund, Aittokallio. It's interesting how just a few years ago the future for Finnish hockey looked really bleak, but how right now we seem to have quite a few prospects with NHL-potential. I suppose every country goes through droughts in talent like that.

Jeepers Creeper 11-24-2012 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElHefe (Post 56002951)
You are wrong and you should know that. He is already guaranteed to become an NHL-player, why else would all the agents and managers around the globe rank him so high for next year's NHL-draft as it will be one of the most high quality drafts in a recent history. He is one of the best players in Finland's pro hockey league and he is 17 years old. He is a damn phenomenon.

Well, the draft position does not determine the success of the drafted player, or else we would be seeing the likes of Patrik Stefan and Alexandre Daigle tearing up the NHL.

As I said, Barkov has a tremendous potential and is indeed one of the best in SM-liiga already, but lets refrain from hyperboles. Calling a 17 yo kid guaranteed to become a regular NHL player, no matter how well he is showcasing himself, is extremely premature.

ElHefe 11-24-2012 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeepers Creeper (Post 56004785)

As I said, Barkov has a tremendous potential and is indeed one of the best in SM-liiga already, but lets refrain from hyperboles. Calling a 17 yo kid guaranteed to become a regular NHL player, no matter how well he is showcasing himself, is extremely premature.

I don't think you really mean that. Let's say there is 80/20 percent of chances for Barkov to become a solid NHL-player, I doubt many would disagree. That being said, it is very likely for him to have a career in NA. IF you still say it is premature to predict he will be a regular NHL-player I would think you are the one being prematurely pessimistic. The point of this thread was to come up with the prospects that we except to be more likely future NHL-players than future Radulovs/Rintanens. Do you seriously think there is a bigger chance for him to end up as an european league-player?

ChadS 11-24-2012 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElHefe (Post 56005397)
I don't think you really mean that. Let's say there is 80/20 percent of chances for Barkov to become a solid NHL-player, I doubt many would disagree. That being said, it is very likely for him to have a career in NA. IF you still say it is premature to predict he will be a regular NHL-player I would think you are the one being prematurely pessimistic. The point of this thread was to come up with the prospects that we except to be more likely future NHL-players than future Radulovs/Rintanens. Do you seriously think there is a bigger chance for him to end up as an european league-player?

You said he's "locked to become a solid NHL first line center" which means it will happen and is unavoidable. It's not that simpl, and a lot of things can go wrong.

FiLe 11-24-2012 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tormentor (Post 56004633)
Anyone wanna share their current top-10? In other words, who are your favorites from guys like Aaltonen, Aittokallio, Armia, Barkov, Donskoi, Eronen, Gibson, Ma.Granlund, Mi.Granlund, Hakanpää, Hartikainen, Haula, J.Ikonen, Jokipakka, Kiviaho, Korpisalo, Lehkonen, Lindbohm, Lindell, Määttä, Nättinen, Ortio, Pakarinen, Perhonen, Pokka, Pulkkinen, Ristolainen, Ruuttu, Salomäki, Teräväinen, Tikkinen, Tuohimaa, Vainonen, Vatanen and others?

Skaters only.

1. Mi.Granlund
2. Vatanen
3. Hartikainen
4. Barkov
5. Määttä
6. Ristolainen
7. Teräväinen
8. Armia
9. Haula
10. Salomäki


Note: It's NOT a list based on highest potential. It's based on, as ElHefe put it, who is "most likely" - in other sense who has the highest probability of becoming a NHLer. Barkov has the highest ceiling methinks, but at this moment The Stamp and Vatanen have the best odds, because they're practically locks to get their shot as soon as the games get underway again. Hartikainen has already seen some NHL action, and is steadily underway on having a career at least as a staple bottom-six PWF. Barkov will very likely skyrocket to the top the moment he gets drafted high and crosses over, but right now, there's still a minor uncertainty factor that stops him from getting the top slot.

From top-four onwards though, it becomes bit more of a crapshoot. 5-8 could probably be in any order, and there's definitely a huge load of guys bubbling under top-10 who might make it before Haula and Salomäki. The odds fluctuate, so that's nothing but a now-cast.

Jeepers Creeper 11-24-2012 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElHefe (Post 56005397)
I don't think you really mean that. Let's say there is 80/20 percent of chances for Barkov to become a solid NHL-player, I doubt many would disagree. That being said, it is very likely for him to have a career in NA. IF you still say it is premature to predict he will be a regular NHL-player I would think you are the one being prematurely pessimistic. The point of this thread was to come up with the prospects that we except to be more likely future NHL-players than future Radulovs/Rintanens. Do you seriously think there is a bigger chance for him to end up as an european league-player?

There is quite a high probability of Barkov becoming a solid NHL player, it wouldn't even be too far-fetched to envision him as an elite player in the future based on what we've seen of him thus far. I've never questioned his potential. I just thought your wording was inaccurate when you said "locked to become a solid NHL first line center" as in he'd be guaranteed to make it to the NHL. No one deserves that label because it simply is an outcome none of us can predict with 100 percent certainty.

I think we actually agree on the matter but argue over semantics here.

The Saw Is the Law 11-25-2012 06:09 AM

Aaltonen, Aittokallio, Armia, Barkov, Donskoi, Eronen, Gibson, Ma.Granlund, Mi.Granlund, Hakanpää, Hartikainen, Haula, J.Ikonen, Jokipakka, Kiviaho, Korpisalo, Lehkonen, Lindbohm, Lindell, Määttä, Nättinen, Ortio, Pakarinen, Perhonen, Pokka, Pulkkinen, Ristolainen, Ruuttu, Salomäki, Teräväinen, Tikkinen, Tuohimaa, Vainonen, Vatanen

I just copied Tormentor's list and putted my expectations there: NHL'er, fringe nhl'er and wont make it

No idea about Vainonen, Armia and Pulkkinen. Can be home runs or busts.

Korkki 11-25-2012 08:21 AM

Armia will be a NHL'er, but he is far far from ready NHL'er. Some games in next two seasons and then probably full season. He needs to grow up mentally too, now the difference between good and a bad day is huge. However, like the Jokerit -game last week showed he might be lazy and skate outside the game mostly but still score the game winner.

If a player like him would give 100% in every shift then he would be sure-fire first liner in NHL.

Haula, then would be solid 3rd liner in NHL IMO. Will not shine like a star, but will be trustworthy in his role. He has made lots of points in NCAA games, but he is also good defensively.

edd1e 11-25-2012 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saw Is the Law (Post 56015321)
Aaltonen, Aittokallio, Armia, Barkov, Donskoi, Eronen, Gibson, Ma.Granlund, Mi.Granlund, Hakanpää, Hartikainen, Haula, J.Ikonen, Jokipakka, Kiviaho, Korpisalo, Lehkonen, Lindbohm, Lindell, Määttä, Nättinen, Ortio, Pakarinen, Perhonen, Pokka, Pulkkinen, Ristolainen, Ruuttu, Salomäki, Teräväinen, Tikkinen, Tuohimaa, Vainonen, Vatanen

I just copied Tormentor's list and putted my expectations there: NHL'er, fringe nhl'er and wont make it

No idea about Vainonen, Armia and Pulkkinen. Can be home runs or busts.

Jokipakka and Salomäki wont make it you say. Can you give a bit info on why is that?

Personally i think Jokipakka might make it. He's big and strong, skate's well.. He has the atributes what is needed

YARR123 11-25-2012 01:09 PM

Here's my list based on potential and likelihood of success

1. Granlund
2. Barkov
3. Vatanen
4. Teräväinen
5. Määttä
6. Hartikainen
7. Ristolainen
8. Armia
9. Hakanpää
10. Salomäki

HM: Pulkkinen, Pokka, Haula, Lehkonen

I'm less sold on Armia now than I was a year ago. I'm not sold on his attitude or his maturity. If he succeeds he can be a hell of a player though.

The Saw Is the Law 11-25-2012 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edd1e (Post 56017177)
Jokipakka and Salomäki wont make it you say. Can you give a bit info on why is that?

Salomäki won't make it because there are tons of players like him born in Canada. He ain't special player, gritty bottom-6 guy. That kind of players don't get many chances to prove them in the big show.

Jokipakka is out for same reason. But I really hope they use their chances and prove my expectations wrong.

Gaps 11-25-2012 02:22 PM

More likely to make it than not: Mikael Granlund, Barkov, Hartikainen, Määttä, Ristolainen, Teräväinen, Vatanen.

Will either be a star player or a total bust: Armia. At his best he's unstoppable and at worst a liability to his team.

50/50 chances: Ortio, Aittokallio (these two would be in the first group based on what I've seen of them, but goalies are so hard to predict that I'm going to put them here), Korpisalo, Jokipakka, Markus Granlund, Hakanpää, Pokka, Lehkonen, Haula, Salomäki.

The rest probably won't make it, but I'll be pleasantly surprised if they do.

FiLe 11-25-2012 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saw Is the Law (Post 56022625)
Salomäki won't make it because there are tons of players like him born in Canada. He ain't special player, gritty bottom-6 guy. That kind of players don't get many chances to prove them in the big show.

Hartikainen is on his way to make it, and some people consider Salomäki's ceiling higher than Hartikainen.

Let's look at history. There have been some big bodies that have made it or are on the brink of making it over the years (Bergenheim, Joensuu, Nemo from few years earlier). Komarov could probably have made it too if he stuck around, but it appears that he prefers Russia (I don't think they're taking him back after the jump). Only probable bust with high hopes that I can recall is Osala.

It's hard to see Salomäki as a star player, but the history has shown us that there actually has been a fair amount of bottom-six headbangers who have crossed over and then managed to secure at least a fringe role. Salomäki is definitely 50-50 in this light. Far from certain of making it, but your reasoning of there being "tons of them born in Canada" doesn't exactly hold water either.

The Saw Is the Law 11-25-2012 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FiLe (Post 56025047)
some people consider Salomäki's ceiling higher than Hartikainen.

That would be great but I can't see Salomäki playing in the top line of Nashville, while Hartikainen has a great chance to play in Oilers' first line.

Hartikainen is our Scott Hartnell :)

Korkki 11-25-2012 05:07 PM

BTW, how about Sakari Salminen? Does anyone see any NHL potential in him? (I know he is older than -91 born, but just curiosity). He has grown mentally a lot in Kuopio.

olop 11-26-2012 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Korkki (Post 56027657)
BTW, how about Sakari Salminen? Does anyone see any NHL potential in him? (I know he is older than -91 born, but just curiosity). He has grown mentally a lot in Kuopio.

I think Salminen has potential to play in NHL, but the problem is that he's pretty useless in NA if he has to play outside top 6. He's skilled and effective enough and a really great player to watch, but can't see him make it straight to top2 lines or to be gritty enough for managing in 3-4 lines. He needs a lot of luck and hard work if he is ever going to make it. Fingers crossed though.

ElHefe 11-26-2012 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olop (Post 56038861)
I think Salminen has potential to play in NHL, but the problem is that he's pretty useless in NA if he has to play outside top 6. He's skilled and effective enough and a really great player to watch, but can't see him make it straight to top2 lines or to be gritty enough for managing in 3-4 lines. He needs a lot of luck and hard work if he is ever going to make it. Fingers crossed though.

He has a very common problem among alot of finnish prospects. He is small and he won't be the next St.Louis. In NHL you just need the whole package, not just quick hands and he is already 24 years of age. There are alot of players like him trying to reach NHL and the age isn't on his side. He will be a great player in Europe and every year a potential candidate for national team, but that's about it. Small is small.

YARR123 11-26-2012 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElHefe (Post 56039047)
He has a very common problem among alot of finnish prospects. He is small and he won't be the next St.Louis. In NHL you just need the whole package, not just quick hands and he is already 24 years of age. There are alot of players like him trying to reach NHL and the age isn't on his side. He will be a great player in Europe and every year a potential candidate for national team, but that's about it. Small is small.

He's slightly undersized at 5'11, but that's hardly a midget size. St. Louis is 5'8.

How does Salminen compare to the likes of Damien Brunner? I'm not saying they're very similar but they are of similar size and both are late bloomers.

ToBBa 11-26-2012 01:08 PM

Top10 based on probability to play in NHL (given that Hartikainen already is an NHL-player)

1. Granlund
2. Barkov
3. Määttä
4. Vatanen
5. Armia
6. Teräväinen
7. Haula
8. Salomäki
9. Ristolainen
10. Pokka


Top10 based on NHL-potential

1. Barkov
2a Granlund
2b Teräväinen
4. Määttä
5. Armia
6. Vatanen
7. Ristolainen
8. Pokka
9. Lehkonen
10. Salomäki

Not a fan of Ristolainen. IMO Määttä is much better in pretty much everything.


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