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-   -   Mario Lemieux moves into $20-million Mont Tremblant home (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1297721)

Fugu 11-25-2012 11:55 AM

Mario Lemieux moves into $20-million Mont Tremblant home
 
Kukla's Korner had this tidbit up this morning, as Lemieux moves into his 'second' home.

The original article:
Pittsburgh Penguins owner Mario Lemieux recently took possession of a new $20-million home in Mont Tremblant, Quebec's high end ski resort town.
The 15,000 square feet sprawling, Swiss castle-style mansion about 145 km north of Montreal has 23 rooms as well as 10 bathrooms.
The castle, which is made of stone and wood, is located on a piece of land close to Tremblant's golf course and ski hills. The castle also features a triple garage and a double garage, has an in-ground swimming pool and an outdoor tennis court with a heated floor....
"It's not the time to talk about my personal affairs," Lemieux told QMI Agency through a spokesman with the Penguins organization.
...
The Tremblant home will remain his second residence, however, as the Penguins' owner also has a home in the Pittsburgh area.
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/24...tremblant-home


Out of curiosity, I decided to look up Lemieux's career earnings, which from 1989 - 2005 totaled $48,926,829. Missing are the five seasons prior to that (1984 being his first NHL season). However, his was paid roughly $2.0, 2.17, and 2.34 MM the first three years for which we have data. Let's assume it was $1 MM/yr for three of those years, and $2 MM/yr for two: $7 MM
www.hockeyzoneplus.com/search/salaries-search.cgi?template=nhl-salaries-search-detail.htm&dbname=NHL-Salaries-test.txt&key2=2199&action=searchdbdisplay

His Pittsburgh home has a tax valuation of roughly $2-3 MM, per Zillow.com.


I think he needs to let Crosby and Malkin use the home whenever they wish. Prior to their arrival, Pittsburgh's valuation was $140-150 MM, iirc. After getting the taxpayers of Pennsylvania to build the team the Consol Energy Center for $321 MM.* (Forbes notes that the Pens control all the arena events.)
From Wiki
:
Quote:

The arena's funding plan was agreed upon by Penguins owner Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh mayor Luke Ravenstahl, and Pennsylvania governor Ed Rendell on March 13, 2007, after much negotiation.[18]
During negotiations, the Penguins explored moving the franchise to Kansas City or Las Vegas; after the deal was made the Penguins agreed to stay in Pittsburgh for at least thirty more years.[18] Lemieux later stated that relocating the franchise was never a possibility, but instead it was a negotiation tactic to help the team get funding for the arena from both state and local officials.[19]
The arena was originally scheduled to open for the 2009–10 NHL season; however, this was pushed back to the 2010–11 NHL season.[20][21] The arena was expected to cost approximately $290 million, but rose to $321 million due to increased cost of steel and insurance.[22][23] The Penguins agreed to pay $3.8 million per year toward construction, with an additional $400,000 per year toward capital improvements.[18] After $31 million cost rise, the Penguins pledged an additional $15.5 million, while the State and Sports and Exhibition Authority split the difference.[22][23]
In September 2009, the State contributed an additional $5.08 million from the "Pennsylvania Gaming Economic Development and Tourism Fund" to cover a rising "interest on variable rate bonds".[24]
On to Forbes:
Franchise valuation for Pittsburgh - $264 MM

The team was acquired by Burkle and Lemieux in 1999 for $107 MM.

Now, this is where it gets interesting. It's noted what Lemieux was contractually set to get above, however the Pens ownership was a mess during Lemieux's career. Some of that money above was deferred and paid out as a stake in the franchise:

Quote:

One governor said Bettman made sure Lemieux received a 25-per-cent stake in the Penguins when the current ownership group led by Ron Burkle was put together. That represented $20-million of the money Lemieux was owed and he also received $5-million in cash. Then, thanks in part to a push from Bettman, although Lemieux worked on it as well, the new Consol Energy Center ensured the value of the Penguins is now about $250-million.
“Mario could have been an active owner if he desired,” one governor said. “He’s got 25 per cent of a franchise that’s valued at 250 million [dollars].
In 1999, Mario was owed $32.5m, so the $20m above was converted to equity, $5m was paid out in cash. [Deduct $7 MM from lifetime earning above.]


$48.9 - 20 - 7 = $21.9 MM cash earnings, + 7 MM from my estimate, thus $28.9 MM


Moral of the story:

If you can get players to keep giving back on their salaries and take hometown discounts, plus convince tax payers to pay for your $320 MM arena = Cha ching.

Fordy 11-25-2012 12:01 PM

What?

Legionnaire11 11-25-2012 12:03 PM

Saw this story last night... and even though I know you want to spin this is some greedy S.O.B., and use it as proof that the owners are the evil rich elite, this is a non-story.

Seriously, if Mario can afford to build a $20M home, good for him. In fact if the majority of players are smart with their money (and a lot of relatively mediocre players will earn more during their career today than Lemieux was able to earn), then they should have no problem building a dream mansion when they are 47.

If this is the story that pro-PA people have to use for their ammo, that pretty much sums up how weak their argument is.

ScottyBowman 11-25-2012 12:11 PM

Look at the poor struggling owner. This is his "second" home too. Screw the rich spoiled kids who play hockey. Give more pie and ice cream to the owners so they can make this game better.

In all honesty, this is another reason why I think the owners are a bunch of liars.

RedWingsNow* 11-25-2012 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 (Post 56018969)

If this is the story that pro-PA people have to use for their ammo, that pretty much sums up how weak their argument is.

Translation: I don't what your point is, but if it runs opposite to mine, it's weak.:)

Come on.

I'm still trying to piece it together myself.

This is the business board too... not just the lockout argument board.

Freudian 11-25-2012 12:17 PM

The players as a collective have benefited from publicly financed arenas too, so you might as well talk about the players houses.

If you are trying to muddle the discussion by drawing parallels between owners personal fortune and teams finances, using an ex-player who received an ownership share because the team hadn't paid him what he was owed as a player seems a bit strange. If anything shouldn't that make the case for teams needing to make money and thus needing reduced costs?

vippe 11-25-2012 12:18 PM

Will Sidney move aswell? :sarcasm:

RedWingsNow* 11-25-2012 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fugu (Post 56018763)
Kukla's Korner had this tidbit up this morning, as Lemieux moves into his 'second' home.

The original article:
Pittsburgh Penguins owner Mario Lemieux recently took possession of a new $20-million home in Mont Tremblant, Quebec's high end ski resort town.
The 15,000 square feet sprawling, Swiss castle-style mansion about 145 km north of Montreal has 23 rooms as well as 10 bathrooms.
The castle, which is made of stone and wood, is located on a piece of land close to Tremblant's golf course and ski hills. The castle also features a triple garage and a double garage, has an in-ground swimming pool and an outdoor tennis court with a heated floor....
"It's not the time to talk about my personal affairs," Lemieux told QMI Agency through a spokesman with the Penguins organization.
...
The Tremblant home will remain his second residence, however, as the Penguins' owner also has a home in the Pittsburgh area.
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/24...tremblant-home


Out of curiosity, I decided to look up Lemieux's career earnings, which from 1989 - 2005 totaled $48,926,829. Missing are the five seasons prior to that (1984 being his first NHL season). However, his was paid roughly $2.0, 2.17, and 2.34 MM the first three years for which we have data. Let's assume it was $1 MM/yr for three of those years, and $2 MM/yr for two: $7 MM
www.hockeyzoneplus.com/search/salaries-search.cgi?template=nhl-salaries-search-detail.htm&dbname=NHL-Salaries-test.txt&key2=2199&action=searchdbdisplay

His Pittsburgh home has a tax valuation of roughly $2-3 MM, per Zillow.com.


I think he needs to let Crosby and Malkin use the home whenever they wish. Prior to their arrival, Pittsburgh's valuation was . After getting the taxpayers of Pennsylvania to build the team the Consol Energy Center for $321 MM.* (Forbes notes that the Pens control all the arena events.)
From Wiki
:
On to Forbes:
Franchise valuation for Pittsburgh - $264 MM

The team was acquired by Burkle and Lemieux in 1999 for $107 MM.

Now, this is where it gets interesting. It's noted what Lemieux was contractually set to get above, however the Pens ownership was a mess during Lemieux's career. Some of that money above was deferred and paid out as a stake in the franchise:

In 1999, Mario was owed $32.5m, so the $20m above was converted to equity, $5m was paid out in cash. [Deduct $7 MM from lifetime earning above.]


$48.9 - 20 - 7 = $21.9 MM cash earnings, + 7 MM from my estimate, thus $28.9 MM


Moral of the story:

If you can get players to keep giving back on their salaries and take hometown discounts, plus convince tax payers to pay for your $320 MM arena = Cha ching.

So Lemieux owned 1/5th of the franchise, approximately?
$20M is worth $50M now?
And while the Pens break even/lose money/make money each year, it hardly matters because Lemieux and company are making money on all the other events in the area too?

I wonder how Forbes takes into account the Penguins control of the arena when factoring franchise value

RedWingsNow* 11-25-2012 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freudian (Post 56019377)
The players as a collective have benefited from publicly financed arenas too, so you might as well talk about the players houses.

If you are trying to muddle the discussion by drawing parallels between owners personal fortune and teams finances, using an ex-player who received an ownership share because the team hadn't paid him what he was owed as a player seems a bit strange. If anything shouldn't that make the case for teams needing to make money and thus needing reduced costs?

Penguins ownership ran their franchise into the ground before the franchise was reborn.

#66 11-25-2012 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bob (Post 56019459)
Penguins ownership ran their franchise into the ground before the franchise was reborn.

Thats right. The Lemieux Group got things right and haven't looked back since.

This is waht happens when you get your house in order. Sure they have their stars but they really marketed them, the Penguins and the sport well.

I'm really hoping a team like the Blues is blowing up a budding star like the Pens built up Sid or Malkin.

The NHL should really take note too. I live about :20 mins outside NYC. The NHL store is nice to look at but its pretty much an absolute pit. Get some stars in there once in a while, have a cup team gather there for a night on the town and then think of events across NA to show off the NHL's elite.

I went to Pittsburgh last year and was lucky enough to see maybe 10 players signing at a mall. This wasn't kids and 4th line guys but MAF, James Neal and Staal. For me it was cool to see but for new hockey fans like my mother and sister it was otherworldly. They were like little kids.

Living in NE NJ the best thing I've seen in this area was the AC game last night. Thanks to all the players for getting together for that but it wasn't an NHL thing.... to be honest maybe thats a good thing now a days.

Conflicted Habs fan 11-25-2012 12:41 PM

I travelled through Mont Tremblant a few weeks ago. It's a really nice ski resort town but I wouldn't want to live there all year. Its catered really for tourists and there isn't much to do. He'll probably come into the city.

Fugu 11-25-2012 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freudian (Post 56019377)
The players as a collective have benefited from publicly financed arenas too, so you might as well talk about the players houses.

Edit: I don't support the idea whatsoever that governments should build arenas for billionaires and their recreational hobbies. I don't care if it also benefits players. That doesn't change my view on it one iota. If Lemieux is a beneficiary to this extent, then it's obscene.

Quote:

If you are trying to muddle the discussion by drawing parallels between owners personal fortune and teams finances, using an ex-player who received an ownership share because the team hadn't paid him what he was owed as a player seems a bit strange. If anything shouldn't that make the case for teams needing to make money and thus needing reduced costs?
I wished to highlight his career earnings vs current spending.

I also think it would be safe to say that the Penguins aren't one of the teams in the red.

Oh, and Malkin and Crosby both deserve top salaries, but took hometown discounts. Really generous of them.

therealkoho 11-25-2012 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vippe (Post 56019409)
Will Sidney move aswell? :sarcasm:


Well of course he will, but with a stipulation, because of the lock-out.

Mario has asked for a co-signer to guarantee Sids 365 dollar a month rent that includes hydro btw, and 2 months up front. One can't be to careful when dealing with people who are not working even if they are BBF's

:nod:

jroc86 11-25-2012 01:24 PM

Koho paid for that home lol ... pretty sure his name is still on their street revolution sticks at Canadian tire.

Whakahere 11-25-2012 01:25 PM

Mario Lemieux has his name as a brand just like crosby. Salary paid in is only a part of their earnings.

Lemieux will be making a killing in using his name around the world. It is what it is when you are famous. Brand your name and watch money roll on in.

Jafar 11-25-2012 01:25 PM

Even If I know he's got more money than what he won as a player , can't we all agree that if there's a kind of player that deserves to be obscenely rich and privileged , it is Mario Lemieux's kind?

Lemieux gave more to hockey than any active player will ever give.

Mont Tremblay is a great place.

Ernie 11-25-2012 01:29 PM

Franchises are way overvalued if you consider return on money invested.

I don't know how accurate the $200m overall league profits figure is, but if you take it and assume that franchises collectively are worth about $7bn (imo a conservative number), owners receive a 3% ROI year to year. You might as well put your money in the bank.

I'm sure the owners use that to justify taking money away from the players. But that's ridiculous. By their financial merits, franchises are wayyy overvalued.

Long and short of it is that in most cases, owning an NHL team is still a hobby. An expensive hobby. But just because the owners are willing to pay massive amounts of money for a franchise doesn't mean they should then turn around and demand the players give them money to make it a viable investment. Because when does it stop? It doesn't. Double the profits and you double the franchise value.

Which, in my view, is the entire point of them behaving as they are. Owners are trying to set things up so they see their franchises balloon in value. Because ultimately, that's where they make the money.

Fugu 11-25-2012 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernie (Post 56021303)
Franchises are way overvalued if you consider return on money invested.

I don't know how accurate the $200m overall league profits figure is, but if you take it and assume that franchises collectively are worth about $7bn (imo a conservative number), owners receive a 3% ROI year to year. You might as well put your money in the bank.

I'm sure the owners use that to justify taking money away from the players. But that's ridiculous. By their financial merits, franchises are wayyy overvalued.

Long and short of it is that in most cases, owning an NHL team is still a hobby. An expensive hobby. But just because the owners are willing to pay massive amounts of money for a franchise doesn't mean they should then turn around and demand the players give them money to make it a viable investment. Because when does it stop? It doesn't. Double the profits and you double the franchise value.

Which, in my view, is the entire point of them behaving as they are. Owners are trying to set things up so they see their franchises balloon in value. Because ultimately, that's where they make the money.


I disagree because franchises for many owners are vehicles that allow returns in other areas. Jacobs may own the Bruins, but he also has a concession business and owns 20% (iirc) of NESN, the company that broadcasts the Bruins. If he weren't the owner of the team, he would have to compete to get that business from the Bruins owner. Leonsis owns the rights to his arena, and now is the majority owner of the NBA team there as well as his Caps. He has two anchor tenants and the rights to operating the arena. Lemieux et al. are making money from the Pens and in running the arena for all other events at the Consol Cntr.

The owners of the Leafs are actually the broadcast companies that will air the games. Snider has stakes in Comcast Spectator, which was acquired by Comcast (which owns NBC).

Rob Scuderi 11-25-2012 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fugu (Post 56021447)
I disagree because franchises for many owners are vehicles that allow returns in other areas. Jacobs may own the Bruins, but he also has a concession business and owns 20% (iirc) of NESN, the company that broadcasts the Bruins. If he weren't the owner of the team, he would have to compete to get that business from the Bruins owner. Leonsis owns the rights to his arena, and now is the majority owner of the NBA team there as well as his Caps. He has two anchor tenants and the rights to operating the arena. Lemieux et al. are making money from the Pens and in running the arena for all other events at the Consol Cntr.

The owners of the Leafs are actually the broadcast companies that will air the games. Snider has stakes in Comcast Spectator, which was acquired by Comcast (which owns NBC).

But aren't the "et al." more important than Lemieux?

I mean I think it'd be more egregious if Burkle was the one spending all this money, but then again aren't they both "moderates" meaning we have no idea where they fall on player rollbacks etc.?

Fugu 11-25-2012 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whakahere (Post 56021183)
Mario Lemieux has his name as a brand just like crosby. Salary paid in is only a part of their earnings.

Lemieux will be making a killing in using his name around the world. It is what it is when you are famous. Brand your name and watch money roll on in.


I don't begrudge Lemieux his money. What I don't like is the use of taxpayer money to pave your way to extra riches. Sure, everyone that can do it does it, but that doesn't make it right. He even admits to using the threat of a move to get more money out of government. I also think this doesn't support the premise that most NHL teams are hurting financially. The Pens are a smaller market team. If you can get your players to take discounts and then hammer some more out of them via lockouts, get tax money to build you an arena, while crying poor to your fans..... yes, you too can build a second home for $20 MM.

Fugu 11-25-2012 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi (Post 56021529)
But aren't the "et al." more important than Lemieux?

I mean I think it'd be more egregious if Burkle was the one spending all this money, but then again aren't they both "moderates" meaning we have no idea where they fall on player rollbacks etc.?

Yes, Burkle is the money behind the Pens, which is why I tried to take a look at Lemieux's earnings while a player. Given the timing of his career, the majority of his money would have come from playing. The sponsorship money available to hockey players back then probably wasn't as high. [If anyone has any info, that would be great to see. I remember seeing something about Gretzky's earnings from endorsements once, which seemed smaller than I expected.]


The thing that led me to look at this more closely after seeing it posted on Kukla's Korner was a comment I read here somewhere. How much of the Pens' increase in revenues and value can be directly attributed to Crosby? If he was the catalyst, then indeed he is being undercompensated by a great deal relative to what he brings in for his owners. Now--- yes there is a cap and a CBA and the "owners take all the financial risk".... but we cannot ignore the value of say this one player to the Pens. If you could take him out of Pittsburgh and send him to Phoenix, would that catalyze a similar rebound there, and what would happen to the Pens' franchise value?

moosehead81 11-25-2012 01:50 PM

I'm pretty sure Mario and the Penguins franchise are really happy with the amount of money they're making now on home games.

Ernie 11-25-2012 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fugu (Post 56021447)
I disagree because franchises for many owners are vehicles that allow returns in other areas. Jacobs may own the Bruins, but he also has a concession business and owns 20% (iirc) of NESN, the company that broadcasts the Bruins. If he weren't the owner of the team, he would have to compete to get that business from the Bruins owner. Leonsis owns the rights to his arena, and now is the majority owner of the NBA team there as well as his Caps. He has two anchor tenants and the rights to operating the arena. Lemieux et al. are making money from the Pens and in running the arena for all other events at the Consol Cntr.

The owners of the Leafs are actually the broadcast companies that will air the games. Snider has stakes in Comcast Spectator, which was acquired by Comcast (which owns NBC).

If Jacobs were to set the TV contract numbers artificially low, he'd be liable to a lawsuit from the NHLPA.

There's no question that consolidating businesses can lead to improved profits. But honestly, I don't think that's entirely fair. Not all franchises are able to do that. I think franchises should be evaluated as individual business entities. I believe that's how the courts would see it.

Then again, that $200m number is so open to interpretation. The NHL would no doubt say it's too high. The NHLPA would no doubt cite some of the things you mentioned to say that it's too low.

Seedling 11-25-2012 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moosehead81 (Post 56021875)
I'm pretty sure Mario and the Penguins franchise are really happy with the amount of money they're making now on home games.

Not to mention the casino profits....

billybudd 11-25-2012 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fugu (Post 56020045)
Edit: I don't support the idea whatsoever that governments should build arenas for billionaires and their recreational hobbies. I don't care if it also benefits players. That doesn't change my view on it one iota. If Lemieux is a beneficiary to this extent, then it's obscene.

"The government," if you want to include SEA in that, paid about $20 million of a $320 million building, which was about half of cost overruns. That's it. That's all they paid. That's not "building an arena for a billionaire," which Lemieux actually isn't.

The state of Pennsylvania's involvement in the construction of Consol Arena is that they brokered a deal on behalf of future gambling licensee, in which, in exchange for being granted a slots license, they'd foot about 65% the bill for a "public" building, with the Penguins picking up the difference. The slots license was so lucrative that 4 separate entities were willing to enter into this agreement in exchange for this license.

Consol Energy Center isn't an example of public funds subsidizing private industry. It's an example of private industry subsidizing a public building that benefits a different private industry.


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