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-   -   Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1298461)

ViD 11-27-2012 10:09 AM

Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?
 
Considering both junior and senior level.

With the recent success at the junior hockey (winning couple super series, winning gold and silver at WJHC) plus being constantly successful at senior tourneys for the last 5 years(mostly WHC, Olympics was failed), can we say that at this point Russia is the #1 nation in hockey?

No troll thread, just an opinion.

um 11-27-2012 10:11 AM

on paper canada is the best clearly, but in actual competitions russia seems to be the best lately

InfinityIggy 11-27-2012 10:12 AM

Best "Country" in hockey, you have to win Olympic Gold IMO, its the big one.

Best level of hockey in the world at the moment (lockout)? Probably.

Blind Gardien 11-27-2012 10:18 AM

I don't think there's a problem in saying there are 4 top contenders (Russia, Canada, Sweden, USA) and that any of them could beat any other at basically any level, given the 1-game elimination formats of all the big tournaments. There really isn't any point in narrowing it down further than that IMHO (unless you are the IIHF applying a ranking to tournament pool selections for example).

BruinsBtn 11-27-2012 10:20 AM


s7ark 11-27-2012 10:22 AM

Olympics is still the barometer for me. WHC and WJC are fun, but don't mean much. The Olympics is the only real best on best tournament.

Mr Writer 11-27-2012 10:27 AM

the short answer is No.
In the past decade Canada has 10 Gold medals at all IIHF Tournaments, to Russia's 6... and since Russia has yet to win an Olympic gold, I say the title still belongs to Canada, but if you win in Sochi and then the debate can rage.

Great question, but I'm sure it will set off a ****storm

Fogelhund 11-27-2012 10:36 AM

I don't place much in the WHC either at this point, it isn't top level hockey.

World Juniors Russia has a Gold, Silver and two Bronzes the last five years.
Sweden has the most recent Gold, two silvers and a Bronze.
Canada has two Golds, two Silvers and a Bronze.

What about birthplace by NHL draft? http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=31888 I know this is somewhat skewed.

What about first overall NHL draft picks? Russia has two in the last decade, Canada six.

Canada won the last Olympics.

I think the top end talent of Russia is very strong, certainly on par with Canada. I do believe that the depth Canada has is far superior to Russia though. If you took Canada B, or Canada C team, vs. Russia B and Russia C, I really think those Russian teams would struggle.

Until you beat the champion, you aren't the Champion. ;-) Olympics and World Juniors should be interesting though.

I am the Liquor 11-27-2012 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blind Gardien (Post 56065461)
I don't think there's a problem in saying there are 4 top contenders (Russia, Canada, Sweden, USA) and that any of them could beat any other at basically any level, given the 1-game elimination formats of all the big tournaments. There really isn't any point in narrowing it down further than that IMHO (unless you are the IIHF applying a ranking to tournament pool selections for example).

One of those is not like the others.

MattyMo35 11-27-2012 10:46 AM

Russia produces some top notch forwards. Unbelievable skill, speed and accuracy of guys like Kovalchuk, Malkin, Datsyuk, Ovechkin etc. However, I don't think they have surpassed Canada as the best player producing country as a whole. Canada produces superstar Dmen, Forwards, and goaltenders. I think their overall production of players outweighs the Russians, but with the ridiculous skill some of the veteran Russians, as well as the new guys like Kuznetsov, Yakupov, and Tarasenko, they can beat anyone in a game or a tournament. I think if there was an international season, Canada would win because of their depth and star talent. Russia's no slouch, but I think Canada still holds the top spot.

Oan 11-27-2012 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blind Gardien (Post 56065461)
I don't think there's a problem in saying there are 4 top contenders (Russia, Canada, Sweden, USA) and that any of them could beat any other at basically any level, given the 1-game elimination formats of all the big tournaments. There really isn't any point in narrowing it down further than that IMHO (unless you are the IIHF applying a ranking to tournament pool selections for example).

Add Finland and Czech Republic to those countries too.

Blind Gardien 11-27-2012 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oan (Post 56066159)
Add Finland and Czech Republic to those countries too.

Well, they could pull off an elimination game upset for sure, at any level, but I think most would still consider it an "upset". Many years. At the Olympics the margins become smaller because those countries can indeed put together a 20-player team to compete with anybody. But the depth might not be the same to put them in the same category at all the other levels too as consistently as the other 4 countries I mentioned.

Kesler2Kesler 11-27-2012 10:58 AM

And France and Uzbekistan as well.

JackSlater 11-27-2012 11:00 AM

Clearly no. Who are the best Russian defencemen? The best Russian goaltenders? All well below Sweden, Canada and USA. The forwards are not particularly better than the other top countries either, outside of the top 6.

World Championships results are clearly laughable. Russia is sending a much higher proportion of their best players than the other top countries. It would be pretty embarrassing if they didn't have the best results over a five year span. Saying that Canada is the best because of gold at the Olympics is just as laughable though, it's only a single game elimination tournament.

Benedict Kovalchuk 11-27-2012 11:00 AM

If they keep up this pace and win gold in 2014, absolutely.

Rabid Ranger 11-27-2012 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I am the Liquor (Post 56065985)
One of those is not like the others.

You're right-Sweden.

Sartorial 11-27-2012 11:05 AM

Who do you guys think currently holds the 7th spot? (Next to Russia, Czech Republic, Sweden, USA, Canada, and Finland)

ricky0034 11-27-2012 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrappingYoungChad (Post 56066523)
Who do you guys think currently holds the 7th spot? (Next to Russia, Czech Republic, Sweden, USA, Canada, and Finland)

Slovakia

Lacaar 11-27-2012 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s7ark (Post 56065563)
Olympics is still the barometer for me. WHC and WJC are fun, but don't mean much. The Olympics is the only real best on best tournament.

It's really a crappy tournament style to try and determine who is the true hockey dominate country.

I'd prefer to bring the 4 teams mentioned (Canada,Russia,USA,Sweden) to a 5 game mini series type tournament. They can be ranked on how they perform in other events.
1 vs 4 for 5 games
2 vs 3 for 5 games
winner vs winner for 5 games.

Once every 2-4 years in the summer.

That's my dream atleast.

S E P H 11-27-2012 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s7ark (Post 56065563)
Olympics is still the barometer for me. WHC and WJC are fun, but don't mean much. The Olympics is the only real best on best tournament.

WHC shows the depth of the country, so it does mean something either way. WJC: I tend to agree with because it vary between year to year, but again it shows how good the young depth of a country is.

bsmith14 11-27-2012 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrappingYoungChad (Post 56066523)
Who do you guys think currently holds the 7th spot? (Next to Russia, Czech Republic, Sweden, USA, Canada, and Finland)

I would argue Switzerland ahead of Slovakia

Fulcrum 11-27-2012 11:25 AM

Why is this thread in the Prospects section? There is no way of determining who is right, so what is the point of this thread? It's just going to be a ****storm.

Anyway, everyone get into the HFBoards Bombshelter. :)

Mr Writer 11-27-2012 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackSlater (Post 56066391)
Clearly no. Who are the best Russian defencemen? The best Russian goaltenders? All well below Sweden, Canada and USA. The forwards are not particularly better than the other top countries either, outside of the top 6.

World Championships results are clearly laughable. Russia is sending a much higher proportion of their best players than the other top countries. It would be pretty embarrassing if they didn't have the best results over a five year span. Saying that Canada is the best because of gold at the Olympics is just as laughable though, it's only a single game elimination tournament.



Yes, but you have to use something to measure the rankings, tournament results over a long period are the only measurable way to determine rankings no matter what we may think of the relevant merits of that tournament or its format. We just can't use individual player stats from league play. Canada is number 1 for now and pending the results of Sochi.

kudymen 11-27-2012 11:28 AM

Quote:

Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?
No.

It's as simple as that for me.

s7ark 11-27-2012 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lacaar (Post 56066775)
It's really a crappy tournament style to try and determine who is the true hockey dominate country.

I'd prefer to bring the 4 teams mentioned (Canada,Russia,USA,Sweden) to a 5 game mini series type tournament. They can be ranked on how they perform in other events.
1 vs 4 for 5 games
2 vs 3 for 5 games
winner vs winner for 5 games.

Once every 2-4 years in the summer.

That's my dream atleast.

I agree one off tournaments aren't the best because near any hockey country can win one game. But for what we have, the Olympics is the best.

I do like your idea, but it would be tough to find a time to do it. NHL is a September through June gig, and the best players generally need the summer to heal up for the next season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by S E P H (Post 56066799)
WHC shows the depth of the country, so it does mean something either way. WJC: I tend to agree with because it vary between year to year, but again it shows how good the young depth of a country is.

True, depth is somewhat important. It helps a country deal with injuries to their best players for the Olympics. But the WHC isn't on the level of the Olympics and never will be, so long as it happens when the NHL playoffs are in full swing.


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