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-   -   Proposal: Vancouver proposals(Columbus, Washington) (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1298729)

shortshorts 11-27-2012 10:07 PM

Vancouver proposals(Columbus, Washington)
 
My first round at this I had every single party decline my proposals. I'm not sure if that is a good or bad thing, as both sides seem to disagree on just about everything. :laugh::laugh:

Here's my next set of proposals:

Kesler for Brassard, CBJ 1st, Calvert

Again, assume a healthy Kesler. Also to reiterate to fellow Canuck fans, I don't like a shooting center who take the majority of the shots, and not utilizing their wingers. Personal preference.

Brassard is a good prospect who has played 2nd line on a weak team and I feel has much more to give. Add on a top 15 pick(I think CBJ does really well in the upcoming season) and more depth(Calvert), I feel the value is good for both teams. It may also being a Kesler bias, but I feel Columbus may even need to give more, but I'll leave it that. :)

Kesler, Connauton, Alberts for Johansson, Carlson

Again re-organizing the offense. Johansson brings a lot of speed and tenacity. He has a lot of potential to become a great second line player. Carlson is a great defensemen and would make a very steady partner for Edler. Washington get's Kesler who will run the offense on the second line. The Caps are very weak on the wings, but with Kesler it wouldn't be a bigger issue as he tends to take his fair share of shots. The caps also get a B prospect in Connauton who is doing extremely well in the AHL.


Thoughts on value?

Avs44 11-27-2012 10:10 PM

I imagine both teams say no. Easily. CBJ won't be giving up Brassard, their 1st, and Calvert for Kesler, sorry. That pick will probably be top 3. Considering this draft, not a chance. They are rebuilding. I doubt Kesler, coming off some major injuries, interested them nearly enough to warrant giving up that much.



Why does Washington need Kesler right now? Sure, if we lose the season, Riberio could walk and they need a 2nd line center again, but even if that does happen, why would they want to give up a very good young center and a top young defensman?

Mystlyfe 11-27-2012 10:11 PM

Washington acquired Ribeiro in the off-season. We're not going to pay Carlson to get another 2C at this point. If this season is completely lost and Ribeiro walks (and the Caps strike out on Getzlaf, Wiess, Zajac, and Roy), we can revisit this proposal from Washington's perspective (though I feel it would still be overpayment from Washington).

Vankiller Whale 11-27-2012 10:12 PM

No from every team involved.

shortshorts 11-27-2012 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avs44 (Post 56081611)
I imagine both teams say no. Easily. CBJ won't be giving up Brassard, their 1st, and Calvert for Kesler, sorry. That pick will probably be top 3. Considering this draft, not a chance. They are rebuilding. I doubt Kesler, coming off some major injuries, interested them nearly enough to warrant giving up that much.



Why does Washington need Kesler right now? Sure, if we lose the season, Riberio could walk and they need a 2nd line center again, but even if that does happen, why would they want to give up a very good young center and a top young defensman?

I disagree about Columbus. I feel CBJ is no longer rebuilding, but rather re-tooling. They have so many pieces with value, and they aren't afraid to spend money. Their defense brings a lot of offense, but their forwards don't. The problem CBJ has, is the uncertainty of where the offense will come from. Kesler solves that. Brassard hasn't done much for CBJ and I feel he would do better in the Canucks system. I do agree about the 2013 draft being extremely deep. I would change it to 2014 if it changes anything in terms of value.

Vankiller Whale 11-27-2012 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shortshorts (Post 56081833)
I disagree about Columbus. I feel CBJ is no longer rebuilding, but rather re-tooling. They have so many pieces with value, and they aren't afraid to spend money. Their defense brings a lot of offense, but their forwards don't. The problem CBJ has, is the uncertainty of where the offense will come from. Kesler solves that. Brassard hasn't done much for CBJ and I feel he would do better in the Canucks system. I do agree about the 2013 draft being extremely deep. I would change it to 2014 if it changes anything in terms of value.

They have 1sts from LA, NYR.

But still, why are we downgrading for futures? Even if you want to shake things up, we should do it with players that can help us.

broc 11-27-2012 10:26 PM

What is this "assume a healthy Kesler" stuff?

Oiler fans say that of Hemsky a lot, to bring up his trade value

Avs44 11-27-2012 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shortshorts (Post 56081833)
I disagree about Columbus. I feel CBJ is no longer rebuilding, but rather re-tooling. They have so many pieces with value, and they aren't afraid to spend money. Their defense brings a lot of offense, but their forwards don't. The problem CBJ has, is the uncertainty of where the offense will come from. Kesler solves that. Brassard hasn't done much for CBJ and I feel he would do better in the Canucks system. I do agree about the 2013 draft being extremely deep. I would change it to 2014 if it changes anything in terms of value.

I don't see how they are not rebuilding. The team they have now cannot compete. You are kidding yourself if you think they are going to go out, trade futures for help now, and throw around money. They need an overhaul. They just traded Nash, yet you think they would trade a potential 1st overall pick for Kesler??? Trading for help now would be the dumbest thing they could do. You think Kesler alone will solve all their scoring woes? He is an incredible player, but he has also been surrounded by an excellent team, and also, his injuries are incredibly worrying. Kesler would not even come close to solving their issues.

StringerBell 11-27-2012 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shortshorts (Post 56081529)
My first round at this I had every single party decline my proposals. I'm not sure if that is a good or bad thing, as both sides seem to disagree on just about everything.

I'd say the latter. None of your deals take team needs into account. Columbus is rebuilding, Vancouver is not. Washington just traded for a 2nd line center, Vancouver needs an established one to compete for the cup.

As has been said many times this offseason, Kesler trade proposals are futile. We value him as an elite two way player whereas other teams value him as an injury prone 2nd line center. He also took a hometown discount for a NTC.

shortshorts 11-27-2012 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broc (Post 56082001)
What is this "assume a healthy Kesler" stuff?

Oiler fans say that of Hemsky a lot, to bring up his trade value

I may have as well not made a proposal if I didn't add the assumption. Where's the fun in that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avs44 (Post 56082085)
I don't see how they are not rebuilding. The team they have now cannot compete. You are kidding yourself if you think they are going to go out, trade futures for help now, and throw around money. They need an overhaul. They just traded Nash, yet you think they would trade a potential 1st overall pick for Kesler??? Trading for help now would be the dumbest thing they could do. You think Kesler alone will solve all their scoring woes? He is an incredible player, but he has also been surrounded by an excellent team, and also, his injuries are incredibly worrying. Kesler would not even come close to solving their issues.

I guess we'll agree to disagree. I believe Columbus has the pieces now to be competitive. I'm not asking for a potential 1st overall pick, I'm just asking for the value of any average year for 1st rounders. Since you and I, both feel that this year is extremely deep, I changed the year to 2014.

ginner classic 11-27-2012 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shortshorts (Post 56081529)
My first round at this I had every single party decline my proposals. I'm not sure if that is a good or bad thing, as both sides seem to disagree on just about everything. :laugh::laugh:

Here's my next set of proposals:

Kesler for Brassard, CBJ 1st, Calvert

Again, assume a healthy Kesler. Also to reiterate to fellow Canuck fans, I don't like a shooting center who take the majority of the shots, and not utilizing their wingers. Personal preference.

Brassard is a good prospect who has played 2nd line on a weak team and I feel has much more to give. Add on a top 15 pick(I think CBJ does really well in the upcoming season) and more depth(Calvert), I feel the value is good for both teams. It may also being a Kesler bias, but I feel Columbus may even need to give more, but I'll leave it that. :)

Kesler, Connauton, Alberts for Johansson, Carlson

Again re-organizing the offense. Johansson brings a lot of speed and tenacity. He has a lot of potential to become a great second line player. Carlson is a great defensemen and would make a very steady partner for Edler. Washington get's Kesler who will run the offense on the second line. The Caps are very weak on the wings, but with Kesler it wouldn't be a bigger issue as he tends to take his fair share of shots. The caps also get a B prospect in Connauton who is doing extremely well in the AHL.


Thoughts on value?

Washington may end up a very good destination for Kesler if the Canucks decide to completely tear it down. We are a long way off from that. Carlson will likely at any point be a non-starter. They are incredibly thin on D right through the org.

The fit with Washington would be if we had some way to acquire another top 2 prospect center, had already acquired a top pairing prospect D, and then were able to take advantage of the relatively solid set of wingers they have in the stable.

The Columbus trade is brutal. Again, Kesler might be a fit there in another year or two, but right now it does not make sense for either side.

Mayor Bee 11-27-2012 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shortshorts (Post 56081833)
I disagree about Columbus. I feel CBJ is no longer rebuilding, but rather re-tooling. They have so many pieces with value, and they aren't afraid to spend money. Their defense brings a lot of offense, but their forwards don't. The problem CBJ has, is the uncertainty of where the offense will come from. Kesler solves that. Brassard hasn't done much for CBJ and I feel he would do better in the Canucks system. I do agree about the 2013 draft being extremely deep. I would change it to 2014 if it changes anything in terms of value.

RJ Umberger and Ryan Kesler hate each other. To acquire Kesler would mean sending Umberger back, or else sending him elsewhere entirely.

That's not even considering the rest of the idea.

DJOpus 11-27-2012 11:26 PM

No from Vancouver. The team that gets the best player usually wins the deal and Kesler will likely be the best player in the deal (depending on how high the 1st is).

Sweech 11-28-2012 12:12 AM

Why are so many random Vancouver fans offering up Kesler?

Then other fans swarm on going "no."?

Edit: looks like it's the same fan.

Mystlyfe 11-28-2012 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ginner classic (Post 56082485)
Washington may end up a very good destination for Kesler if the Canucks decide to completely tear it down. We are a long way off from that. Carlson will likely at any point be a non-starter. They are incredibly thin on D right through the org.

Since when is a team with eight defensemen on one-way deals and three more with NHL experience "thin" through the org? I'll be the first to tell you that we're lacking in high end defensive prospects, but we're plenty deep with guys who can play in the NHL. In addition to the eleven with NHL experience already (ten once you remove Poti), we have Schilling and Wey who are both either "NHL ready" or will be by the seasons' end.

The reason we're not trading Carlson isn't because we're thin on defense. It's because he plays a very important role on the team, has tremendous chemistry with Alzner, has incredible upside, is signed to a deal that could be very club friendly, and has proven to be at his best during the playoffs.

palindrom 11-28-2012 12:22 AM

This trade would make sense if Vancouver was rebuilding and Colombus making a cup run.

VinnyC 11-28-2012 12:35 AM

Kesler for a soft 40-50 pts center, a guy who projects as Mason Raymond at best and a 1st?

...no. Did RK17 demand a trade and I don't know about it yet?

arsmaster 11-28-2012 11:32 AM

shortshorts:

If Columbus picked first overall who would you take?

Not that shoot-first center Nathan Mackinnon, right?

fedfed 11-28-2012 11:56 AM

Pretty easy no from the Caps to any trade that involves Carlson and doesn't involve a superstar player, especially considering Kesler's injury problems. Shoulders are no joke and Caps fans know this from Eric Fehr's situation.

HockeyTS32 11-28-2012 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystlyfe (Post 56084555)
Since when is a team with eight defensemen on one-way deals and three more with NHL experience "thin" through the org? I'll be the first to tell you that we're lacking in high end defensive prospects, but we're plenty deep with guys who can play in the NHL. In addition to the eleven with NHL experience already (ten once you remove Poti), we have Schilling and Wey who are both either "NHL ready" or will be by the seasons' end.

The reason we're not trading Carlson isn't because we're thin on defense. It's because he plays a very important role on the team, has tremendous chemistry with Alzner, has incredible upside, is signed to a deal that could be very club friendly, and has proven to be at his best during the playoffs.


I agree with this guy's statement. Plus they also have Tomas Kundratek that they could rely upon in the short run and possibly the long run if need be. I thought he played well in the few call ups that he had last season.

I also do agree with some other people above when they say that caps would be overpaying for Kesler. I would love for a guy like Kesler to be on the caps but def not at that price. Carlson is a big part of our defensive corp. He and Alzner are the future of the caps on Def (if they can sign both to a long term deal). And I'm hesitant on giving up Marcus Johansson as well especially for what the OP says is a "B" prospect, and Alberts. Alberts is getting up there in age. Plus Mojo has only played two season in the NHL and has done fairly well. I think in the long term, he could possibly be the 2C. If he never fills that role, he still has a spot on wing on either of the top 2 lines. All in all, I think the fact that Carlson is in this propsoal is a non-starter. Atleast it is for me, and I believe it would be for the caps as well.

Mystlyfe 11-28-2012 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VinnyC (Post 56084887)
Kesler for a soft 40-50 pts center, a guy who projects as Mason Raymond at best and a 1st?

...no. Did RK17 demand a trade and I don't know about it yet?

:facepalm:

When that 1st comes from the team with the worst record in the NHL last year...

Vankiller Whale 11-28-2012 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystlyfe (Post 56092667)
:facepalm:

When that 1st comes from the team with the worst record in the NHL last year...

Do you think Edmonton would be willing to trade Gagner + 1st for Kesler? It's a very similar package, and we could absolutely get more value by shopping him to a contending team in need of a 2C.

Mystlyfe 11-28-2012 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 56093393)
Do you think Edmonton would be willing to trade Gagner + 1st for Kesler? It's a very similar package, and we could absolutely get more value by shopping him to a contending team in need of a 2C.

Brassard > Gagner.
Maybe you could get more value in terms of what will help you on the ice immediately, but in terms of total return you're not going to beat a top 5 pick and a young center. That's a great return for Kesler, and if Vancouver were rebuilding right now they'd be foolish to pass it up.

Vankiller Whale 11-28-2012 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystlyfe (Post 56093817)
Brassard > Gagner.
Maybe you could get more value in terms of what will help you on the ice immediately, but in terms of total return you're not going to beat a top 5 pick and a young center. That's a great return for Kesler, and if Vancouver were rebuilding right now they'd be foolish to pass it up.

I don't mean the value was off per se, simply that it doesn't suit our needs, and has less value to us right now.

Jeff Carter got Voracek + Couturier, which I think is a comparable return if we were looking to undergo a youth movement.

As we are not, however, it makes no sense for us to do it.

jameswrjobe53 11-28-2012 02:37 PM

Lol hell **** na


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