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-   -   Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top Goaltenders) (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1298765)

TheDevilMadeMe 11-27-2012 10:42 PM

Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
 
NOTE FOR ROUND 5: Seventieslord will be collecting votes for this round.

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2
  • The top ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • Voters will rank their top available goaltenders
  • Final results will be posted and the top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list in order.
  • The process will be repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 players is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
  • Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
  • Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
  • Please treat other debaters with respect
  • Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
  • Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (27):
Bring Back Scuderi; Canadiens1958; ContrarianGoaltender; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; Dreakmur; foame; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jagorim Jarg; Johnny Engine; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; Nalyd Psycho; pappyline; quoipourquoi; reckoning; seventieslord; steve141; Sturminator; Taco MacArthur; tarheelhockey; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

TheDevilMadeMe 11-27-2012 10:47 PM

Vote 5 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Thursday, December 6. You can send votes to seventieslord beginning on December 4.

Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume that we never received it

Please note that you are ranking 8 of 11 candidates this time.

Vote 5 will be for places 17 through 20 on the Top 40 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Johnny Bower
Grant Fuhr
George Hainsworth
Jiri Holecek
Hugh Lehman
Harry Lumley
Bernie Parent
Billy Smith
Tiny Thompson
Lorne "Gump" Worsley
Roy Worters

MOD NOTE: Posts that don't focus on the available goalies will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators.

TheDevilMadeMe 11-27-2012 10:49 PM

Due to where the natural breaks in the aggregate list occur, we will have 11 candidates this round before going back to 10 for the next two rounds.

TheDevilMadeMe 11-27-2012 10:58 PM

On a personal note: I find Hugh Lehman, the best goalie the history of the Western Leagues that rivaled the NHL prior to 1926 to be the most interesting of the new candidates. I start this round with Lehman competing with Holecek, Worters, Parent, and Bower for my top 4.

TheDevilMadeMe 11-27-2012 11:54 PM

NHL All Star Teams

I'm including the unofficial GM-voted teams from the late 20s when available. 3rd Team All Stars are unofficial but based off the same pool of votes that determine 1st and 2nd Team.

Roy Worters
  • 1st Team All Star (1926) over ? (Charles Stewart was 2nd in Hart voting among goalies)
  • 1st Team All Star (1927) over ?
  • 1st Team All Star (1928) over George Hainsworth and Alec Connell
  • 1st Team All Star (1929) over ?
  • no records for 1930, but Charlie Gardiner led goalies in Hart voting
  • 3rd Team All Star (1931) behind Charlie Gardiner and Tiny Thompson
  • 2nd Team All Star (1932) behind Charlie Gardiner, ahead of George Hainsworth
  • 3rd Team All Star (1933) behind John Ross Roach and Charlie Gardiner
  • 2nd Team All Star (1934) behind Charlie Gardiner, ahead of Tiny Thompson
  • 3rd Team All Star (1935) behind Lorne Chabot and Tiny Thompson

George Hainsworth
  • no records past 1st Team for 1927, but Hainsworth had the lowest GAA
  • 2nd Team All Star (1928), behind Roy Worters, over Alec Connell
  • no records past 1st Team for 1929, but Hainsworth had the lowest GAA
  • no records for 1930, but Charlie Gardiner led goalies in Hart voting
  • 3rd Team All Star (1932) behind Charlie Gardiner and Tiny Thompson
Hainsworth appears to be 4th in All Star voting in 1931 and 1936 and 5th in 1934 and 1935

Tiny Thompson
  • no records for 1930, but Thompson had the lowest GAA as Charlie Gardiner led all goalies in Hart voting
  • 2nd Team All Star (1931) behind Charlie Gardiner, ahead of Roy Worters
  • 3rd Team All Star (1934) behind Charlie Gardiner and Roy Worters
  • 2nd Team All Star (1935) behind Lorne Chabot, ahead of Roy Worters
  • 1st Team All Star (1936) ahead of Wilf Cude and Mike Karakas (Thompson's 3rd Vezina season)
  • 3rd Team All Star (1937) behind Normie Smith and Wilf Cude
  • 1st Team All Star (1938) ahead of Dave Kerr and Wilf Cude (Thompson's 4th Vezina)
In 1933, Thompson won his second Vezina for best GAA but was 4th in All Star voting behind John Ross Roach, Charlie Gardiner, and Roy Worters. Otherwise unheard of in this era.

Harry Lumley
  • 3rd Team All Star (1946) behind Bill Durnan and Frank Brimsek
  • 1st Team All Star (1954) ahead of Terry Sawchuk and Al Rollins
  • 1st Team All Star (1955) ahead of Terry Sawchuk and Jacques Plante
Lumley was 4th in 1947 and 5th in 1948 (out of 6 goalies).

Gump Worsley
  • 3rd Team All Star (1956) behind Glenn Hall and Jacques Plante
  • 3rd Team All Star (1961) behind Johnny Bower and Glenn Hall
  • 2nd Team All Star (1966) behind Glenn Hall, ahead of Roger Crozier
  • 1st Team All Star (1968) ahead of Ed Giacomin and Johnny Bower
Worsely was a also a distant 4th in 1963

Johnny Bower
  • 1st Team All Star (1961) - over Glenn Hall and Gump Worsley
  • 3rd Team All Star (1962) - behind Jacques Plante and Glenn Hall
  • 3rd Team All Star (1964) - behind Glenn Hall and Charlie Hodge
  • 3rd Team All Star (1965) - behind Roger Crozier and Charlie Hodge
  • 3rd Team All Star (1968) - behind Gump Worsley and Ed Giacomin

Bernie Parent
  • 1st Team All Star (1974) - over Tony Esposito and Gilles Gilbert
  • 1st Team All Star (1975) - over Rogie Vachon and Gary Smith
Parent was 4th in All Star voting in both 1969 and 1970. He was 5th in 1968, 1977, and 1978.

Billy Smith
  • 1st Team All Star (1982) - over Grant Fuhr and Rick Wamsley
Smith was a 1st Team All Star in 1982 by a wide margin, but this is the only season he received a significant number of votes. GMs gave him the Vezina in 1982 (the first voted on Vezina), and he was 4th in Vezina voting in 1983 (much higher than he was in All Star voting).

Grant Fuhr
  • 2nd Team All Star (1982) behind Billy Smith, over Rick Wamsley
  • 3rd Team All Star (1986) behind John Vanbiesbrouck and Bob Froese
  • 3rd Team All Star (1987) behind Ron Hextall and Mike Liut
  • 1st Team All Star (1988) ahead of Patrick Roy and Tom Barrasso
Fuhr was 6th in both Vezina and All-Star voting in 1996.

seventieslord 11-28-2012 12:19 AM

I'll start by saying I think it's clear that the three 1930s goalies go in this order: Worters, Thompson, Hainsworth. If anyone disagrees, please explain why and we can talk about it.

I think Bower's clearly ahead of Worsley too.

among the 70s/80s guys, I see Parent as clearly the best, but Smith/Fuhr is one hell of an interesting comparison. Cliff's notes:

- Both are dynasty goalies with a ton of team success. Both have a "clutch" reputation.
- Stark difference in that Fuhr was a workhorse goalie (1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th in minutes), and Smith was not (just a 5th)
- Smith had very dominant sv% numbers in both the regular season and the playoffs: 12 points above average in the regular season and 17 points above average in the playoffs. Fuhr did not: 0 points above in the regular season and 3 in the playoffs.
- Fuhr still received a ton of all-star and vezina recognition relative to Smith.
- Neither outperformed the other goalies on their teams from a regular season sv% standpoint, from what I can see. From 1973-1989 Smith was 1% worse than his understudies, and from 1984-1991 Fuhr was 3% worse. There are other ways to calculate it the way I did 2 years ago, and weight it differently, but in any case it doesn't look like either was a high performer relative to their teammates.
- Fuhr had success with other teams and coaches. Smith had the same coach and system for his entire career.

I am pretty sure neither will get a vote from me for this round. The hard part is, when we're at the right round for them to get votes, who gets in first?

Nalyd Psycho 11-28-2012 12:24 AM

Hainsworth over Thompson because he has some great playoffs. Also, Hainsworth gets shorted by being in decline when all-star teams were created.

TheDevilMadeMe 11-28-2012 12:36 AM

With the remaining 4 goalies who backstopped dynasties all available this round, I might as well re-post these.

Hart Trophy Top 5 finishes
As non-NHLers, Holecek and Lehman were not eligible

name1st2nd3rd4th5thtotal
Roy Worters110114
Harry Lumley010113
Bernie Parent010102
Johnny Bower010001
Grant Fuhr010001
Gump Worsley001001
Tiny Thompson000101
George Hainsworth000000
Billy Smith000000

Junk stat for team success
As a non-NHL European, Holecek never competed for the Cup. Lehman's PCHA did, however.

nameCupsfinalsSmythestotal
Billy Smith45110
Johnny Bower3519
Grant Fuhr4408
George Hainsworth2417
Hugh Lehman1607
Gump Worsley3306
Bernie Parent2226
Harry Lumley1405
Tiny Thompson1214
Roy Worters0000

Smythes include Retro Smythes as determined by the HHOF. I'm only giving goalies credit for Cup wins and finals when they played the majority of the games. By this metric, Worsley loses credit for the 1969 Cup as Vachon played 8 games vs 7 for Gump.

I'm not including Lehman's 2 lost Cup challenges both in 1910 before the first playoffs for the Cup were established (starting in 1914 the Cup finals pitted the PCHA champion vs the NHL champion). Retro Smythes only go back to 1918, so they don't cover Lehman's win in 1915.

TheDevilMadeMe 11-28-2012 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho (Post 56084711)
Hainsworth over Thompson because he has some great playoffs. Also, Hainsworth gets shorted by being in decline when all-star teams were created.

Iain Fyffe argued in his blog that Hainsworth's non-NHL career should be taken into account:

Quote:

And speaking of longevity, check out George Hainsworth's career. He played 1611 effective gamaes played, which is the equivalent of playing a full 80-game schedule for 20 full seasons, plus a bit. Hainsworth played his first senior hockey in the OHA (at the age of 17) in 1912/13, a full 11 years before he would play his first professional game. After 11 seasons of senior-level amateur hockey (all but one of which was played in Berlin, later Kitchener), he began a 14-year major-pro career, retiring at the age of 41.
http://hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.com...-of-1920s.html

Immediately before coming to the NHL, Hainsworth had 3 seasons in the WCHL/WHL, and for two of those seasons, the WCHL/WHL was just as strong as the NHL - the WHL absorbed the PCHA 2 years before it disbanded itself.

The OHA was "senior hockey," aka non-professional, which Iain argues was good enough to count for something. I'm not sure if I agree but I haven't looked at it that closely.

I'm not sure who I prefer between Hainsworth and Thompson. I do know that I'll need serious convincing to have either in my top 4, and I do have both behind Worters.

Mike Farkas 11-28-2012 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 56084627)
I'll start by saying I think it's clear that the three 1930s goalies go in this order: Worters, Thompson, Hainsworth. If anyone disagrees, please explain why and we can talk about it.

I also see it this way to start the round. I don't think there's any way to catch Worters for those two. Outside shot they can flip and/or flop (they being Tiny and Hainsworth). I had Worters in my top-4 last round to be honest, I can't see him being upended here all of a sudden.

Also, not the least bit concern with Fuhr or Smith at this point...not at all.

Lehman is very interesting, given that split league, pre-forward pass goalies have already been "enshrined" (not saying that inducting such goalies was wrong, just saying...)

MXD 11-28-2012 07:15 AM

Worters/Thompson/Hainsworth? I have Worters comfortably first and in the Top-4, and actually Top-2. In my initial list, Hainsworth was 3 or 4 spots below Thompson. At the moment, I'd probably have Hainsworth ahead of Thompson for reasons covered by Nalyd precedently. It might be a wash, but I think Thompson had even better team support than Hainsworth (for their careers as a whole). As TDDM said, it doesn't really matter the Top-4, but it certainly does for the Top-8.

Smith ahead of Fuhr. Hard to penalize Smith for, basically, playing under only one head coach (early coaches are irrelevant here).

Mike Farkas 11-28-2012 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 56086783)
It might be a wash, but Thompson had even better team support than Hainsworth.

Has this been discussed in any great length anywhere? I'd be curious to look further into this...I realize Thompson had very good support and it appears as if Hainsworth had such tremendous support that it cost him Hart/AS voting recognition...it's something that is close enough in my head that I'd like to learn more - if information is available...

BM67 11-28-2012 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 56084627)
I'll start by saying I think it's clear that the three 1930s goalies go in this order: Worters, Thompson, Hainsworth. If anyone disagrees, please explain why and we can talk about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 56085027)
Iain Fyffe argued in his blog that Hainsworth's non-NHL career should be taken into account:



http://hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.com...-of-1920s.html

Immediately before coming to the NHL, Hainsworth had 3 seasons in the WCHL/WHL, and for two of those seasons, the WCHL/WHL was just as strong as the NHL - the WHL absorbed the PCHA 2 years before it disbanded itself.

The OHA was "senior hockey," aka non-professional, which Iain argues was good enough to count for something. I'm not sure if I agree but I haven't looked at it that closely.

I'm not sure who I prefer between Hainsworth and Thompson. I do know that I'll need serious convincing to have either in my top 4, and I do have both behind Worters.

Considering Hainsworth a "1930s goalie" is almost like considering Esposito a "1980s goalie". His pro career started in 1923 at the age of 28.

Dennis Bonvie 11-28-2012 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 56086783)
Worters/Thompson/Hainsworth? I have Worters comfortably first and in the Top-4, and actually Top-2. In my initial list, Hainsworth was 3 or 4 spots below Thompson. At the moment, I'd probably have Hainsworth ahead of Thompson for reasons covered by Nalyd precedently. It might be a wash, but I think Thompson had even better team support than Hainsworth (for their careers as a whole). As TDDM said, it doesn't really matter the Top-4, but it certainly does for the Top-8.

Smith ahead of Fuhr. Hard to penalize Smith for, basically, playing under only one head coach (early coaches are irrelevant here).

Having never seen Worters, Thompson or Hainsworth play, what makes Worters clearly better than the other two?

I see the voting and the Hart Trophy, but I also see a goalie who is 58 games under .500. Seems a little early, top 20, for a consistent losing goalie.

BraveCanadian 11-28-2012 08:35 AM

Not sure if it is of any help to this crowd or at this time but here is the ATD bio I did this past year for Grant Fuhr.

Also some links in there to info that TCG did on his blog with regards to some evidence that the Oilers coasted in the regular season much of the dynasty years as well as some adjusted save percentages for Cup winning goalies:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...9&postcount=72

tarheelhockey 11-28-2012 08:42 AM

Agreed that Worters is clear-cut as the best remaining goalie of his generation. I'm not sure, but he may be the best goalie available overall.

I don't want to be too quick to dismiss Fuhr. He has his warts, but he also has some redeeming factors. For example, while his save% might look weak compared to Smith's, he also put in a whole lot more GP in most of those seasons. And he played for the ultimate firewagon team, which isn't exactly conducive to high save% in the first place. In the playoffs, when the team buckled down and played more carefully, he seems to be Smith's peer. And in terms of pure longevity, having 28% more career GP is nothing to sniff at.

From a bird's-eye view, Fuhr would be the first goalie on our list to peak in the mid-1980s. In fact, Hasek is the only current listee who played at all in the 1984-85 season! Isn't that kind of weird, in light of how the rest of the list is composed? We have 5 guys who played in 1970, 3 who played in 1979*, 3 who played in 1990, 4 who played in 1995... and 0 in the NHL in 1985?

It could legitimately be considered a dark-age for goalies, but I think we should at least give due consideration to that theory before we set it in stone.


* I would have used 1979-80 for the sake of roundness, but Dryden retired in '79. Given his age, it seemed right to include him.

tarheelhockey 11-28-2012 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie (Post 56087275)
Having never seen Worters, Thompson or Hainsworth play, what makes Worters clearly better than the other two?

I see the voting and the Hart Trophy, but I also see a goalie who is 58 games under .500. Seems a little early, top 20, for a consistent losing goalie.

Worters definitely carried his teams more than Hainsworth and Thompson. That much is obvious from contemporary sources.

Whether losing goalies belong on the list, is a matter of personal principles I guess. I tend to look more at their performance and individual results than their team results, but to each his own.

quoipourquoi 11-28-2012 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie (Post 56087275)
Seems a little early, top 20, for a consistent losing goalie.

I believe we already have one in Charlie Gardiner, so it wouldn't be unprecedented to support Roy Worters despite it.

pdd 11-28-2012 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 56086783)
Worters/Thompson/Hainsworth? I have Worters comfortably first and in the Top-4, and actually Top-2. In my initial list, Hainsworth was 3 or 4 spots below Thompson. At the moment, I'd probably have Hainsworth ahead of Thompson for reasons covered by Nalyd precedently. It might be a wash, but I think Thompson had even better team support than Hainsworth (for their careers as a whole). As TDDM said, it doesn't really matter the Top-4, but it certainly does for the Top-8.

Smith ahead of Fuhr. Hard to penalize Smith for, basically, playing under only one head coach (early coaches are irrelevant here).

Can't agree with Smith over Fuhr. Both split as a tandem, but Melanson posted notably better numbers when compared to Smith while Fuhr poted equal or better numbers when compared to Moog. Based on this consideration, it's hard to even rank either over Chris Osgood, who significantly outplayed a better backup in Mike Vernon when both were with Detroit.

BraveCanadian 11-28-2012 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarheelhockey (Post 56087599)
From a bird's-eye view, Fuhr would be the first goalie on our list to peak in the mid-1980s. In fact, Hasek is the only current listee who played at all in the 1984-85 season! Isn't that kind of weird, in light of how the rest of the list is composed? We have 5 guys who played in 1970, 3 who played in 1979*, 3 who played in 1990, 4 who played in 1995... and 0 in the NHL in 1985?

It could legitimately be considered a dark-age for goalies, but I think we should at least give due consideration to that theory before we set it in stone.

Very good point.

I think that goaltending as a position in the 80s was in transition, or perhaps even caught a little behind the advances in the offensive game, and that has lead to the perception it was a dark age for goalies. The game was influenced more by the Soviets east and west game and with the equipment of the time and the reactive style played by goalies up until then, that left a lot of net open barring a spectacular save.

I will say though: no one I can recall at the time considered it a dark age for goalies. That is a hindsight thing.. maybe because we had such a good crop with Roy/Hasek/Belfour/Brodeur et al. by the end of the 80s and into the 90s.

Goalies numbers in the 80s are for the most part not so good in comparison to other eras and I think that is a factor in the voting being spread around so much. The league was bigger and at the same time, without a goalie running away statistically, all voters had to go on was their eyes when they got to see a goalie.

Maybe that is a reason why the 80s had a couple of goalies on winning teams who were known to be so clutch (Fuhr/Smith). People got to see them more often in the playoffs and see that, despite their seemingly underwhelming numbers, they were in fact great goaltenders.

Ohashi_Jouzu 11-28-2012 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 56082851)
On a personal note: I find Hugh Lehman, the best goalie the history of the Western Leagues that rivaled the NHL prior to 1926 to be the most interesting of the new candidates. I start this round with Lehman competing with Holecek, Worters, Parent, and Bower for my top 4.

Lehman certainly is interesting, but I don't know how you guys are going to come up with much career value for him - beyond the "innovator" status. While he had some great years in the PCHA, he was actually quite average (or worse) until about his 30s when the Millionaires (led by Cyclone Taylor and Smoky Harris) started coming into their own. Also hard not to penalize him for only having 1 Cup to show for 8 "Finals" appearances, considering playoff arguments laid down against other goalies in the voting process so far. I also refuse to consider the PCHA as "equivalent" to the NHA of the time, and treat accomplishments at that level like I would a modern day player in the KHL or AHL.

pdd 11-28-2012 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 56084915)
With the remaining 4 goalies who backstopped dynasties all available this round, I might as well re-post these.

Hart Trophy Top 5 finishes
As non-NHLers, Holecek and Lehman were not eligible

name1st2nd3rd4th5thtotal
Roy Worters110114
Harry Lumley010113
Bernie Parent010102
Johnny Bower010001
Grant Fuhr010001
Gump Worsley001001
Tiny Thompson000101
George Hainsworth000000
Billy Smith000000

It's important to note that Fuhr's 2nd place Hart finish was also 2nd on his team.

Hawkey Town 18 11-28-2012 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu (Post 56087933)
Lehman certainly is interesting, but I don't know how you guys are going to come up with much career value for him - beyond the "innovator" status. While he had some great years in the PCHA, he was actually quite average (or worse) until about his 30s when the Millionaires (led by Cyclone Taylor and Smoky Harris) started coming into their own. Also hard not to penalize him for only having 1 Cup to show for 8 "Finals" appearances, considering playoff arguments laid down against other goalies in the voting process so far. I also refuse to consider the PCHA as "equivalent" to the NHA of the time, and treat accomplishments at that level like I would a modern day player in the KHL or AHL.

The PCHA may have been a lesser league, but it was better than you suggest. From 1915-1922 the PCHA won 2 Cups and 5 other times took the Cup Final series to the limit, losing 3 games to 2. The best modern day KHL and AHL teams wouldn't come close to being that competitive with the best NHL teams.

Ohashi_Jouzu 11-28-2012 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 (Post 56088149)
The PCHA may have been a lesser league, but it was better than you suggest. From 1915-1922 the PCHA won 2 Cups and 5 other times took the Cup Final series to the limit, losing 3 games to 2. The best modern day KHL and AHL teams wouldn't come close to being that competitive with the best NHL teams.

But how many of those times were actually just one team - the Fred Taylor Vancouver Millionaires? And FWIW, I think KHL teams like Dynamo Moscow, CSKA, etc could hold their own in a 2 game or best of 5 series against any NHL club - maybe even win. I think you dismiss the relative strength of the KHL and AHL by an equivalent measure to my dismissal of the PCHA.

DaveG 11-28-2012 09:51 AM

Initial thought here is that Parent, Worters, and Holecek are going to be tough to knock out of my list here, especially Parent and Holecek. That 4th spot and almost everything after is entirely up for debate though.

But more importantly, we get to the Smith vs Fuhr debate that we started to hit on in the last thread. I do really wish we had more complete stats for Smith and his peers earlier in his career (sv% mostly) just to see how the two compare to their respective competition at that time. Eyeball test told me that Smith was the better goalie by a bit, but I was also way too young to appreciate what I was seeing when Smith was still playing and even when Fuhr was in his prime.


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