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overpass 11-28-2012 06:55 PM

Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players
 
From a special edition of Hockey Le Magazine. 9 other lists from longtime coaches, referees, and media members were also included. But I think Bowman's is the most interesting, considering his stature in the hockey world.

1. Bobby Orr
2. Gordie Howe
3. Maurice Richard
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Wayne Gretzky
6. Doug Harvey
7. Eddie Shore
8. Howie Morenz
9. Jean Beliveau
10. Bobby Hull
11. Guy Lafleur
12. Dave Keon
13. Henri Richard
14. Mark Messier
15. Sidney Crosby
16. Raymond Bourque
17. Jacques Plante
18. Frank Mahovlich
19. Terry Sawchuk
20. Serge Savard
21. Denis Potvin
22. Glenn Hall
23. Mike Bossy
24. Dickie Moore
25. Steve Yzerman
26. Brad Park
27. Larry Robinson
28. Bernard Geoffrion
29. Norm Ullman
30. Alex Delvecchio
31. Joe Sakic
32. Bobby Clarke
33. Bob Gainey
34. Scott Niedermayer
35. Elmer Lach
36. Patrick Roy
37. Gilbert Perreault
38. Jacques Lemaire
39. Guy Lapointe
40. Phil Esposito
41. Ted Lindsay
42. Red Kelly
43. Syl Apps
44. Milt Schmidt
45. Johnny Bucyk
46. Marcel Dionne
47. Yvan Cournoyer
48. Martin Brodeur
49. Scott Stevens
50. Cam Neely
51. Jean-Claude Tremblay
52. Michel Goulet
53. Steve Shutt
54. Ken Dryden
55. Bernard Parent
56. Bert Olmstead
57. Bill Barber
58. Pierre Pilote
59. Eric Lindros
60. Darryl Sittler
61. George Armstrong
62. Bryan Trottier
63. Jonathan Toews
64. Chris Pronger
65. Tom Johnson
66. Jean Ratelle
67. Glenn Anderson
68. Paul Coffey
69. Ron Francis
70. Andy Bathgate
71. Luc Robitaille
72. Grant Fuhr
73. Red Berenson
74. Larry Murphy
75. Al MacInnis
76. Denis Savard
77. Joe Nieuwendyk
78. Billy Smith
79. Rick MacLeish
80. Martin St-Louis
81. Tim Horton
82. Jacques Laperriere
83. Tony Esposito
84. Steven Stamkos
85. Brendan Shanahan
86. Bob Pulford
87. Wendel Clark
88. Rob Blake
89. Rodrigue Gilbert
90. Guy Carbonneau
91. Shea Weber
92. Doug Gilmour
93. Johnny Bower
94. Gump Worsley
95. Ed Belfour
96. Dino Ciccarelli
97. Dick Duff
98. Drew Doughty
99. Dave Andreychuk
100. Mark Recchi

Bowman was highest on:
Serge Savard
Hall
Delvecchio
Park
Ullman
Morenz
Shore
Pilote
Barber
Tremblay
Keon
Henri Richard
Lach


Lowest on:
Gretzky
Messier
Bowman
Yzerman
Brodeur
Dionne
Coffey
Trottier
Francis
Robitaille
Denis Savard
Shanahan
Gilmour
Hawerchuk
Nieuwendyk
Gartner
Oates
Iginla
McDonald
Turgeon
Fleury

kmad 11-28-2012 06:57 PM

Stan Fischler is starting to look reasonable.

Kloparren 11-28-2012 06:59 PM

Did he have something against Gretzky? Also I'd assume that Sakic would be on there and a couple others probably I can't remember right now plus either Roy or Brodeur ahead of Sawchuk and Plante or at least one of them. Nah this isn't biased at all. David Keon?

Hardyvan123 11-28-2012 07:05 PM

I just picked the magazine up yesterday and they highlight on the right hand of each presenters top 100, a "let the debate begin" list of people who might be considered low to some.

Interestingly they seemed to miss Wayne at 5, hopefully there is some information behind the order.

It will make for an interesting read no doubt.

Bryan Trottier was 62 right behind George Armstrong and just ahead of Jonathan Towes and Chris Pronger.

Trotts at 62 and Bossy at 23, man would he get flamed on these boards or what eh?

JackSlater 11-28-2012 07:20 PM

If Bowman was some anonymous poster he would be heckled mercilessly.

MXD 11-28-2012 07:25 PM

I considered picking it up.
Is there some worthy "text" in the magazine?

Because....geez, Keon and Richard at 11 and 12 seems like turbo madness.

thom 11-28-2012 07:37 PM

Actually you ask old timers about Mapleleafes they will tell you Dave Keon is right up there for mapleleaf players.People who know the game like Bowman know how important Keon was.In terms of Montreal Canadien players I am surprised that Bowman had Savard ahead of Robinson.But not surprised that Lafleur was high up you ask people like Howie Meeker or Yvon Pednault they will tell you Lafleur was the best hab ever.Potvin Bourque Robinson and coffey were high up.But why did Bowman have Coffey so down the list considering his high record braking pts totals?

overpass 11-28-2012 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 56102373)
I considered picking it up.
Is there some worthy "text" in the magazine?

Because....geez, Keon and Richard at 11 and 12 seems like turbo madness.

It's 168 pages. Most is taken up by write ups on the top 100. Each voter also has a page or two with their list and some thoughts on their criteria and individual players, and it highlights some of their high and low rankings.

There's also some analysis by age, geography, hall of fame status, etc.

It also shows the aggregate list past 100 of all players who received a vote.

I don't know if there's a lot of groundbreaking new information presented, but it is interesting to read Red Fisher on Bobby Orr, Kerry Fraser on Wayne Gretzky, Jacques Demers on Steve Yzerman, Terry Crisp on Phil Esposito, etc.

Bowman wasn't the only one to have Henri Richard high. Red Fisher put him at 14. The overall list compiled by the 10 voters had him at 24.

Reds4Life 11-28-2012 07:50 PM

That's a pretty bad list IMHO.

TheDevilMadeMe 11-28-2012 07:52 PM

What's Bowman's explanation for ranking Maurice Richard over Lemieux and Gretzky? Also, what's his explanation for ranking Gretzky down in 5th?

wolfgaze 11-28-2012 07:53 PM

Dick Duff?

:laugh:

Killion 11-28-2012 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thom (Post 56102615)
Actually you ask old timers about Mapleleafes they will tell you Dave Keon is right up there for mapleleaf players.

"Oldtimers" huh? Why I oughtta..... but ya, Keon was/is my favourite Leaf players of All Time. Saw him play right through his career in Toronto. He and Henri Richard as you can see from Bowmans rankings Frick & Frack, side x side really, both excellent players, smart, savvy, reliable, could be spectacular, serious two way guys who could shut down the opponents top line & put the game away in the process, Keon in particular more than capable of filling the net.

Interesting selections on the goaltenders as well, Plante, Sawchuk, Hall, Roy & Dryden. Did I miss Hasek in there or is he noticeable by his absence? Then theres the top 5, Gretzky in last top spot. That in and of itself "unusual" unless one considers that old schoolers, many of us, either do indeed rate #99 lower in the rung or just dont rate him at all. Take him out of the equation altogether as so unique, unusual, and almost completely anathema to what a proto-typical player consists of, even the enormously gifted ones like Orr, Lemieux & Richard.

overpass 11-28-2012 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 56103037)
"Oldtimers" huh? Why I oughtta..... but ya, Keon was/is my favourite Leaf players of All Time. Saw him play right through his career in Toronto. He and Henri Richard as you can see from Bowmans rankings Frick & Frack, side x side really, both excellent players, smart, savvy, reliable, could be spectacular, serious two way guys who could shut down the opponents top line & put the game away in the process, Keon in particular more than capable of filling the net.

Interesting selections on the goaltenders as well, Plante, Sawchuk, Hall, Roy & Dryden. Did I miss Hasek in there or is he noticeable by his absence? Then theres the top 5, Gretzky in last top spot. That in and of itself "unusual" unless one considers that old schoolers, many of us, either do indeed rate #99 lower in the rung or just dont rate him at all. Take him out of the equation altogether as so unique, unusual, and almost completely anathema to what a proto-typical player consists of, even the enormously gifted ones like Orr, Lemieux & Richard.

Hasek is Czech, not Canadian.

TDMM, Bowman provided only a short write up on Guy Lafleur with his list. No comment on Maurice Richard, Gretzky, or on the criteria he used. The other voters all wrote more, some quite a bit more.

reckoning 11-28-2012 08:24 PM

For everyone saying his list would be heckled here, I don't think (or at least I hope not) that would necessarily be the case. Everybody is going to have a minority opinion of some sort, and most of us are willing to consider it if they explain the reasons behind it.

But in this case (as much as I'd love to hear Bowman's reasoning behind some of the choices), no explanation should be required because he's Scotty Bowman and he knows more about the game and the players in it than all of us combined. Doesn't mean I agree with everything he listed, but I certainly respect it. If I see a player on there way higher than I would've expected, it would give me reason to think that perhaps the player was better than I thought, rather than just saying "this list sucks".

Several interesting points on the list. Maurice Richard ahead of both Gretzky and Lemieux is a fascinating choice, and maybe a reminder to us fans who never saw him of how widely respected he was at the time. I've noticed a lot that the two players who seem to be repeatedly named by their contemporaries as better than they ever got credit for are Henri Richard and Serge Savard. Their high ratings here concur with that. Paul Coffey seems way lower than expected, but Bowman coached him twice and obviously knows all about his good and bad qualities.

Highest non-Hall of Famers are J.C. Tremblay and Eric Lindros. I wonder if Bowman has advocated inductions for them at the board's meetings?

Killion 11-28-2012 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by overpass (Post 56103123)
Hasek is Czech, not Canadian.

Oops. Right you are. ;)

Hawkey Town 18 11-28-2012 08:29 PM

Interesting to see how he ranks players that he actually coached. For example, he has Serge Savard over Larry Robinson. Henri Richard over both of them. Gainey over Cournoyer.

The general trend with these players and with his whole list is a high value put on defensive play, which isn't too surprising considering his style.

livewell68 11-28-2012 08:32 PM

Crosby at # 15 sticks out like a sore thumb.

There is no way he is ahead of the likes of Clarke, Sakic, Bourque, Yzerman, Roy, Plante, Brodeur, Bossy and Trottier.

Hawkey Town 18 11-28-2012 08:32 PM

Just saw Wendel Clark at #87...that's the most puzzling of them all for me.

MXD 11-28-2012 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 56102933)
What's Bowman's explanation for ranking Maurice Richard over Lemieux and Gretzky? Also, what's his explanation for ranking Gretzky down in 5th?

I'm not Scotty, I haven't picked up the magazine yet, but I can guess it...

Bowman saw them both and couldn't resolve to split them apart in his rankings, cause they were so close (not my words).

Killion 11-28-2012 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfgaze (Post 56102955)
Dick Duff? :laugh:

:laugh: Why does everyone around here laugh when Dickie Duff's names mentioned? I mean c'mon here. The guy won the Memorial Cup and then like what, 6 Stanley Cups, 2 with Toronto and 4 with Montreal? In his prime, Hell of a tenacious player. Left it all out there on the ice.

Hawkey Town 18 11-28-2012 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 56103861)
I'm not Scotty, I haven't picked up the magazine yet, but I can guess it...

Bowman saw them both and couldn't resolve to split them apart in his rankings, cause they were so close (not my words).

Are you talking about Lemieux and Gretzky or Howe and Richard?

MXD 11-28-2012 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 (Post 56104123)
Are you talking about Lemieux and Gretzky or Howe and Richard?

Howe and Richard, but could've been both.

overpass 11-28-2012 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reckoning (Post 56103593)
For everyone saying his list would be heckled here, I don't think (or at least I hope not) that would necessarily be the case. Everybody is going to have a minority opinion of some sort, and most of us are willing to consider it if they explain the reasons behind it.

But in this case (as much as I'd love to hear Bowman's reasoning behind some of the choices), no explanation should be required because he's Scotty Bowman and he knows more about the game and the players in it than all of us combined. Doesn't mean I agree with everything he listed, but I certainly respect it. If I see a player on there way higher than I would've expected, it would give me reason to think that perhaps the player was better than I thought, rather than just saying "this list sucks."

I wanted to post something along the same lines, but you just said it better.

I certainly don't think I have it all figured out to the point that I have nothing to learn from the greatest coach of all time.

Dennis Bonvie 11-28-2012 09:21 PM

Red Kelly at 42?

BraveCanadian 11-28-2012 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reckoning (Post 56103593)
For everyone saying his list would be heckled here, I don't think (or at least I hope not) that would necessarily be the case. Everybody is going to have a minority opinion of some sort, and most of us are willing to consider it if they explain the reasons behind it.

But in this case (as much as I'd love to hear Bowman's reasoning behind some of the choices), no explanation should be required because he's Scotty Bowman and he knows more about the game and the players in it than all of us combined. Doesn't mean I agree with everything he listed, but I certainly respect it. If I see a player on there way higher than I would've expected, it would give me reason to think that perhaps the player was better than I thought, rather than just saying "this list sucks".

Several interesting points on the list. Maurice Richard ahead of both Gretzky and Lemieux is a fascinating choice, and maybe a reminder to us fans who never saw him of how widely respected he was at the time. I've noticed a lot that the two players who seem to be repeatedly named by their contemporaries as better than they ever got credit for are Henri Richard and Serge Savard. Their high ratings here concur with that. Paul Coffey seems way lower than expected, but Bowman coached him twice and obviously knows all about his good and bad qualities.

Highest non-Hall of Famers are J.C. Tremblay and Eric Lindros. I wonder if Bowman has advocated inductions for them at the board's meetings?

Quote:

Originally Posted by overpass (Post 56104867)
I wanted to post something along the same lines, but you just said it better.

I certainly don't think I have it all figured out to the point that I have nothing to learn from the greatest coach of all time.

Yeah, I have a lot of respect for Scotty Bowman and would certainly say that he knows a lot more about hockey than anyone here.

That being said, a single list by a single person is going to have some of their preferences biasing that list. Scotty Bowman included. He seems to favour older players and players that are two-way. That explains players like Gretzky, Coffey and Esposito being lower than most people would put them here.

He also seems to favour goal scorers quite a bit more than playmakers.

Why he has Bryan Trottier on spot above Toews at 62 I can't imagine since Trottier is practically a prototypical Scotty Bowman player. If anything he's too physical for Bowman's type of club hahaha.. who knows..

Anyways, it would be the same for any of us creating a list. Some people prefer offensive artistry, some bone crushing defense etc... and that will end up tie breaking or knocking players down a few notches depending on those preferences.


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