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jkrx 11-29-2012 04:25 PM

ATD 2013 - Planning
 
I remember people talked about maybe moving the ATD from start of the year to another point. I think now would be the best time to do it. The MLD and AAA started later and is taking a long time to finish and I'm sure TDMM and Co wants to focus on the goalie ranking project.

If we move it to either later spring/early summer or next fall, I think that would give most GM's the time they need on these project plus we could still have the AA, A and undrafteds without feeling the stress of having to finish it before january.

What do you guys think?

seventieslord 11-29-2012 04:39 PM

Expect an uproar from the many GMs who don't want to wait more than a couple more months for their ATD.

TheDevilMadeMe 11-29-2012 04:44 PM

The majority of ATD GMs don't participate in the AA and A drafts, so I don't see why everyone should have to wait for them. A year between ATDs is enough in my opinion. Since the lower level drafts are low pressure, could they happen at the same time as the main ATD if you guys want to continue?

Thanks for thinking of the goalie list. It was really irritating to me personally that last year's ATD was pushed up a few weeks earlier than scheduled, which meant that I couldn't focus on the first few rounds of the ATD and ended up making cases for defensemen in the defensemen project at the same time they were being drafted by other people in the ATD.

I think there's less of a problem of overlap with goalies though, as nobody cares that much about backup goalies in the ATD.

This is a rough schedule for the goalie list. If we stick to a top 40, there will be 10 votes.

Vote 5: over Dec 6
Vote 6: over Dec 14
Vote 7: over Dec 23
Vote 8: over Jan 3 (extra time for the holiday)
Vote 9: over Jan 12
Vote 10: over Jan 24. (extra time because it's the last round)

There's a chance the goalie project will be extended to top 50 if there is interest, but not worth talking about that now. If it is, this is the rough schedule of the last 3 rounds.

Vote 10: over Jan 21
Vote 11: over Jan 30
Vote 12: over Feb 9

From the perspective of the goalie project, the last week in January would be a fine time to start the ATD I think. The last week of January is when ATDs 2010 and 2011 both started.

I don't mind pushing it back to February, but would not want to push it back any further.

TheDevilMadeMe 11-29-2012 04:45 PM

One thing that needs to be decided before the draft starts are the trading rules. The rules last time (no restrictions, rely on the good will of other GMs, trading committee veto in extreme cases) didn't work for a couple of reasons.

jkrx 11-29-2012 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 56123729)
The majority of ATD GMs don't participate in the AA and A drafts, so I don't see why everyone should have to wait for them. A year between ATDs is enough in my opinion. Since the lower level drafts are low pressure, could they happen at the same time as the main ATD if you guys want to continue?

Thanks for thinking of the goalie list. It was really irritating to me personally that last year's ATD was pushed up a few weeks earlier than scheduled, which meant that I couldn't focus on the first few rounds of the ATD and ended up making cases for defensemen in the defensemen project at the same time they were being drafted by other people in the ATD.

I think there's less of a problem of overlap with goalies though, as nobody cares that much about backup goalies in the ATD.

This is a rough schedule for the goalie list. If we stick to a top 40, there will be 10 votes.

Vote 5: over Dec 6
Vote 6: over Dec 14
Vote 7: over Dec 23
Vote 8: over Jan 3 (extra time for the holiday)
Vote 9: over Jan 12
Vote 10: over Jan 24. (extra time because it's the last round)

There's a chance the goalie project will be extended to top 50 if there is interest, but not worth talking about that now. If it is, this is the rough schedule of the last 3 rounds.

Vote 10: over Jan 21
Vote 11: over Jan 30
Vote 12: over Feb 9

From the perspective of the goalie project, the last week in January would be a fine time to start the ATD I think. The last week of January is when ATDs 2010 and 2011 both started.

I don't mind pushing it back to February, but would not want to push it back any further.

Thats why I made the thread to hear what all or most GMs had to say. Although its good to hear that the goalie project is most likely done by the time ATD starts.

Hawkey Town 18 11-29-2012 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 56123729)
From the perspective of the goalie project, the last week in January would be a fine time to start the ATD I think. The last week of January is when ATDs 2010 and 2011 both started.

I don't mind pushing it back to February, but would not want to push it back any further.

I agree with this

jkrx 11-29-2012 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 56123759)
One thing that needs to be decided before the draft starts are the trading rules. The rules last time (no restrictions, rely on the good will of other GMs, trading committee veto in extreme cases) didn't work for a couple of reasons.

I'd say no trades during the draft. Trades prior to draft should be allowed since some people dont like to choose in the top-3 and so on.

Hawkey Town 18 11-29-2012 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 56124523)
I'd say no trades during the draft. Trades prior to draft should be allowed since some people dont like to choose in the top-3 and so on.

When you say before the draft do you mean trades that are for full sets of picks only (basically switching draft positions) or would any type of trade be ok?

jkrx 11-29-2012 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 (Post 56125071)
When you say before the draft do you mean trades that are for full sets of picks only (basically switching draft positions) or would any type of trade be ok?

I guess any type of trade would be ok as long as it follows the guidelines we may or may not set. As long as we avoid the trade chaos of ATD2012 it will be a step forward.

seventieslord 11-29-2012 08:30 PM

There is trading because most people want trading. There can be another referendum though.

jkrx 11-30-2012 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 56128905)
There is trading because most people want trading. There can be another referendum though.

Well that majority can handle the draft thread then. Remember how it was last time? It's just becomes too crazy especially if there is one guy trying to make multiple trades within one round. I don't mind a few trades, it's not really the trades that become a problem, it's the volume of trades.

Hawkman 11-30-2012 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 56123627)
Expect an uproar from the many GMs who don't want to wait more than a couple more months for their ATD.

Include me in this group. I already have 4 different specialized draft lists for the 2013 & 2014 ATDs and MLDs that I've been working on since the first round playoffs of the ATD that I've spent about a 100 hours working on and even agreed to team up with a GM for the 2013 AAA. There are often specialized projects going on in the HoH and why should the majority (some of whom only do the ATD) suffer, because the drafts are running late this year? We don't even know how much interest there is in the AA & A drafts. If this happens, the bluebird of paradise will truly have crapped on my birthday cake. :cry: :help: :rant: :shakehead :amazed: :( :p:

Hawkey Town 18 11-30-2012 10:22 AM

I would not be in favor of eliminating trades during the draft. Sometimes there's a run on a certain type of player that is a key piece to your team and I think you should be able to trade up for stuff like that.

I would be ok with some kind of limit on the number of trades each GM can make like we did in 2011.

seventieslord 11-30-2012 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 (Post 56139067)
I would not be in favor of eliminating trades during the draft. Sometimes there's a run on a certain type of player that is a key piece to your team and I think you should be able to trade up for stuff like that.

I would be ok with some kind of limit on the number of trades each GM can make like we did in 2011.

That's fine, we can vote on that but last time we voted, it was for unlimited trades.

Hawkey Town 18 11-30-2012 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 56142815)
That's fine, we can vote on that but last time we voted, it was for unlimited trades.

Voting is the fairest way to do it. I'd definitely rather have unlimited trades than no trades at all....which brings up an idea...I don't remember how we did it last time, but I think when we vote we should have a few options and rank all of them. This would be similar to how we have been making decisions on the HOH board in regards to which ranking projects to do.

My main beef with unlimited trades was that it was too time consuming...I know the easy solution is don't participate in the trade market, but I just can't help myself. In other words, the limit would really be for my own good, a way to restrain myself and force myself to spend more time researching players instead of negotiating deals. :)

Rob Scuderi 11-30-2012 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Made Me (Post 56136765)
Include me in this group. I already have 4 different specialized draft lists for the 2013 & 2014 ATDs and MLDs that I've been working on since the first round playoffs of the ATD that I've spent about a 100 hours working on and even agreed to team up with a GM for the 2013 AAA. There are often specialized projects going on in the HoH and why should the majority (some of whom only do the ATD) suffer, because the drafts are running late this year? We don't even know how much interest there is in the AA & A drafts. If this happens, the bluebird of paradise will truly have crapped on my birthday cake. :cry: :help: :rant: :shakehead :amazed: :( :p:

Pushing the ATD back for a lower draft would pretty much be the worst idea ever, luckily no one really seems into it.

TheDevilMadeMe 11-30-2012 03:38 PM

Okay, so there were basically 2 problems with trading last time that I remember

1) A pair of GMs consistently trying to push through lopsided trades. Basically, one GM drafted Vladimir Lutchenko, got obsessed with the idea of reuniting him with his real-life partner Valeri Vasiliev, and kept trying to trade Slava Fetisov (a much better player than Vasiliev) for Vasiliev and scraps.

Possible solution: 3 strikes and you're out. If you have 3 vetoed trades, you can't trade for the rest of that ATD. Period. Considering that last ATD was the first time that we even reached 3 vetoed trades between every GM combined, I don't think this will put an unfair burden on anyone.

2) GMs making controversial megatrades multiple times right before their turn, which held up the draft.

Hypothetical example:

A hypothetical GM (we'll just call him "LeafsAlways") has pick 82. The draft is now on pick 80. He makes a controversial megatrade that trades away pick 82 and it holds up the draft as we wait for it to be reviewed. Both GMs say no picks until they know if the trade is approved. Finally the trade goes through. Right after pick 82 is made (by the guy who traded for it), LeafsAlways makes another controversial megatrade to trade up, this time for pick 84. Again, the draft is held up.

The result: LeafsAlways traded from pick 82 to pick 84 (with a lot of later picks exchanged) and the draft got held up twice, once for each trade that resulted in him moving back 2 spots in the end.

Tougher to think of a solution for this one, but I have a few ideas:

a) Cap the number of trades but make it really high. An 8 trade maximum shouldn't affect most GMs but would put a damper on megatrades that serve no real purpose other than for the sake of trading.

b) This is something that I've thought should happen for a long time, but never gets much support. No more than 4 picks/player per side in a trade. Trades involving 2 or 3 picks are easy to evaluate. Trades involving 4 picks are tougher but not crazy tough. Trades involving 5 picks going to each way often have to be discussed. The vast majority of controversial trades in ATDs are these megatrades with 5 or more picks going each way, and maybe it's time to get rid of them.

A softer version of this rule: If you want to trade 5 or more picks/players at once, you must complete the trade and submit it to the trade committee at least 1 full round before the first pick of the trade is to be selected. (Or for trades involving 1st round picks, you need to complete it before the clock officially starts running for anyone).

seventieslord 11-30-2012 05:25 PM

What about you are done trading once you have made 4 trades or traded 10 assets, whichever comes first.

Keep in mind that 9 assets would satisfy the rule too, since another trade would put you at 11. It might need to be better worded; "you can not make more than 4 trades or trade more than 10 assets during the draft."via if "leaderless" does something like you said, it happens twice, at most. Maybe less work and red tape that way.

TheDevilMadeMe 11-30-2012 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 56148257)
What about you are done trading once you have made 4 trades or traded 10 assets, whichever comes first.

Keep in mind that 9 assets would satisfy the rule too, since another trade would put you at 11. It might need to be better worded; "you can not make more than 4 trades or trade more than 10 assets during the draft."via if "leaderless" does something like you said, it happens twice, at most. Maybe less work and red tape that way.

Something like this could work, although the 4 trades/10 asset numbers are way too low I think. (remember all the complaining about the 3 trade max?)

Maybe 8 trades / 25 assets max. The goal wouldn't be to limit legitimate trading to help your team, it would be to limit making megatrades just for the sake of making megatrades.

Dwight 12-01-2012 04:49 PM

I wouldn't push the draft too far back. Not too many people participate in the AA and A drafts so as mentioned above, it wouldn't necessarily be fair to "punish" the majority because of what a minority is asking for. I know there are some GMs who are chomping at the bit to get going again, and it's been almost a year since ATD 2012 began. I think the timing is good in these 1 year cycles. Pushing it back to spring/summer 2013 would not be productive, IMO. February should be an absolute latest start time.

As far as trades are concerned, I honestly don't care. As you guys know, I usually don't make trades, but I don't see why others couldn't. Yes it's confusing, but perhaps if we made a separate trades thread (as we have in the past, IIRC), it can help clear up the clutter and the confusion.

Either way, whenever ATD 2013 gets up and running, I will be ready to join :).

Jafar 12-02-2012 01:05 PM

Couple of points:

- With the cold and the snow arriving earlier this year , hockey season is in the air.The lack of NHL activities is leaving a void that I hope the ATD can fill.This is why I look forward to see the ATD starting as soon as possible , somewhere middle-to-end of January.

- If there's a referandum concerning trading , I would vote for trades to be banned.Last year was a complete circus with LeafsForever and Mr.Bugg making huge trades every single round.

- The number of team was perfect last year , it was more agreable than in 2011.

- The Montreal Canadiens GMed by BenchBrawl will return for a 3rd consecutive ATD.

TheDevilMadeMe 12-02-2012 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenchBrawl (Post 56183955)

- If there's a referandum concerning trading , I would vote for trades to be banned.Last year was a complete circus with LeafsForever and Mr.Bugg making huge trades every single round.

There will be a vote and believe me, I'd be very happy with no trading after the nonsense that went on last time. But don't you think that if we make the following rules, it will cut back on the nonsense considerably?

1) You can make a maximum of 8 trades and trade a maximum of 25 assets over the course of the draft.
2) If you have 3 vetoed trades, you can't trade anymore for the rest of the draft.

MadArcand 12-03-2012 01:43 AM

Dear god, 8 trades is still a truckload. I mean, that's 1/3rd of your picks. And aren't 25 assets like ALL your picks? If/when there'll be a vote, I'll vote for no trades like Reen.

TheDevilMadeMe 12-03-2012 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadArcand (Post 56203435)
Dear god, 8 trades is still a truckload. I mean, that's 1/3rd of your picks. And aren't 25 assets like ALL your picks? If/when there'll be a vote, I'll vote for no trades like Reen.

Yeah it's a lot. I know there were a lot of GMs during and after ATD2011 complaining about the 3 trade limit in that draft. 8 trades / 25 assets is basically unlimited trading for most GMs. Maybe 8 trades totalling 20 assets would make more sense?

I just checked and after swapping all his picks starting at 5 for all of someone else's picks starting at 8, Leafs Forever made 11 trades totalling 29 assets.

I would be interested in exploring jkrx's idea that all trades need to happen before the draft clock starts, also.

Jafar 12-03-2012 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 56189697)
There will be a vote and believe me, I'd be very happy with no trading after the nonsense that went on last time. But don't you think that if we make the following rules, it will cut back on the nonsense considerably?

1) You can make a maximum of 8 trades and trade a maximum of 25 assets over the course of the draft.
2) If you have 3 vetoed trades, you can't trade anymore for the rest of the draft.

I don't know , 8 trades seems like such a high number that it's in ''might as well just don't have any limit'' territory.It would also be annoying to calculate how many trades people made.

Allowing trades BEFORE the draft is pointless , for trades to be relevant you have to see the picture of the draft appearing in front of your eyes.

One thing is sure , trades can be fun and useful for a GM , I know my team got better last year because of them , but it can also becomes a pain in the ass in the hand of a unreasonable person.

Finally , I would suggest 5 trades maximum , keep the 3 vetoed rule but be prepare to the possibility of losing a GM because of egos if it happens , 16 assets total.


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