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-   -   20 Greatest Red Wings (#10) (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1299987)

pdd 11-30-2012 10:32 PM

20 Greatest Red Wings (#10)
 
1) Gordie Howe 52%
2) Steve Yzerman 78%
3) Nicklas Lidstrom 86%
4) Ted Lindsay 39%
5) Terry Sawchuk 33% (Tiebreaker 52%)
6) Sergei Fedorov 56%
7) Alex Delvecchio 56%
8) Red Kelly 50%
9) Sid Abel 24% (Tiebreaker 61%)

Who is your vote for the 10th greatest Red Wing ever?

irishock 11-30-2012 11:01 PM

Gonna be a close one between Datsyuk and Zetterberg. For now it's Datsyuk but assuming Zetterberg plays the rest of his career here as captain, he'll be above Datsyuk by then.

The Nose 11-30-2012 11:38 PM

Datsyuk for now

The Zetterberg Era 12-01-2012 03:26 AM

projecting here but I think it will be Zetterberg when all is said and done.

pdd 12-01-2012 11:40 AM

Shanahan above Zetterberg? Disagree.

Heaton 12-01-2012 11:54 AM

Basically neck and neck between Datsyuk and Z for me, but Z has been the best Wings playoff performer as a forward since Datsyuk and Z had played together. That puts him over the top, Datsyuk has had some awesome playoff runs as well, but never hit Z's peak.

Sentinel 12-01-2012 02:13 PM

Actually, while Z was more steady in PO, Datsyuk far higher PO peaks.

The Zetterberg Era 12-01-2012 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sentinel (Post 56163657)
Actually, while Z was more steady in PO, Datsyuk far higher PO peaks.



He has not outperformed Z's Conn Smythe run, not for a moment. If you are going with a couple years ago, yes he helped crush Phoenix, but really who turned around the San Jose series from 3-0 was Zetterberg getting healthier as it went along and he had 8 points in 7 games on a bum knee.

newfy 12-01-2012 04:24 PM

Fedorov above Kelly= Joke

jkrx 12-01-2012 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfy (Post 56166229)
Fedorov above Kelly= Joke

Its what the kids want.

sarcastro 12-02-2012 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 56160771)
Shanahan above Zetterberg? Disagree.

Shanahan was one of the best power forwards of all time. Goal scoring, ass kicking, even PKing late in his career. Z has been very good but his resume isn't close to Shanny's at this point.

People seem to forget the physically intimidating force that Shanny provided when he was on the ice. He would throw down with anybody and he never got whooped as far as I can remember. And when he got mad, he became a better scorer. Instead of going Lapointe and just getting himself thrown in the box for nothing, he'd channel it into an overwhelming offensive push. Dude was money.

pdd 12-02-2012 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarcastro (Post 56178043)
Shanahan was one of the best power forwards of all time. Goal scoring, ass kicking, even PKing late in his career. Z has been very good but his resume isn't close to Shanny's at this point.

And peaked with the Blues. Z's Detroit resume is far better.

Quote:

People seem to forget the physically intimidating force that Shanny provided when he was on the ice. He would throw down with anybody and he never got whooped as far as I can remember. And when he got mad, he became a better scorer. Instead of going Lapointe and just getting himself thrown in the box for nothing, he'd channel it into an overwhelming offensive push. Dude was money.
He wasn't as effective or as consistent as Zetterberg offensively, and he wasn't within Zetterberg's universe defensively even from the moment Z stepped on NHL ice. Shanahan has this mystical aura about him because of "the trade" that makes people see him as more than he was.

And if you want a physically intimidating force, Chelios, Konstantinov, and Probert are all also up on the poll...

RedWingsNow* 12-02-2012 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 56179067)
And peaked with the Blues. Z's Detroit resume is far better.



He wasn't as effective or as consistent as Zetterberg offensively, and he wasn't within Zetterberg's universe defensively even from the moment Z stepped on NHL ice. Shanahan has this mystical aura about him because of "the trade" that makes people see him as more than he was.

And if you want a physically intimidating force, Chelios, Konstantinov, and Probert are all also up on the poll...

Give it a rest.
While I think Shanny was a big overrated later in his career here, there is no denying 1) his importance to this team in 3 cups, 2) His popularity in Detroit.

Saying he peaked in St. Louis is kind of misleading, too, as NHL scoring took a nosedive while Shanny was in Detroit

RedWingsNow* 12-02-2012 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfy (Post 56166229)
Fedorov above Kelly= Joke

What's a joke is people like you acting as if you have some knowledge of Red Kelly when you never saw him play.

How many games did Kelly play at D vs F?
Why did Kelly's stats go down in the playoffs?
How did Kelly do in the big games?
What was his defensive game like?
How did he play when he got hit?

All questions you can't answer and I can't answer because we never watched.

It's very tough comparing players from different eras. It's even tougher when you never saw the players --- which is the reason why this poll is silly -- and your anger about so and so over so and so is sillier

RedWingsNow* 12-02-2012 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedWings19405 (Post 56166011)


He has not outperformed Z's Conn Smythe run, not for a moment. If you are going with a couple years ago, yes he helped crush Phoenix, but really who turned around the San Jose series from 3-0 was Zetterberg getting healthier as it went along and he had 8 points in 7 games on a bum knee.

It wasn't so much that Z turned it around as much as it was as it gave us two viable lines

Heaton 12-02-2012 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarcastro (Post 56178043)
Shanahan was one of the best power forwards of all time. Goal scoring, ass kicking, even PKing late in his career. Z has been very good but his resume isn't close to Shanny's at this point.

People seem to forget the physically intimidating force that Shanny provided when he was on the ice. He would throw down with anybody and he never got whooped as far as I can remember. And when he got mad, he became a better scorer. Instead of going Lapointe and just getting himself thrown in the box for nothing, he'd channel it into an overwhelming offensive push. Dude was money.

I'd still take Z over Shanahan. Shanny is a hall of famer and one of the greatest goal scorers ever, but Z has done things in the playoffs that Shanahan never did or could do.

ProPAIN 12-02-2012 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bob (Post 56181553)
It's very tough comparing players from different eras. It's even tougher when you never saw the players --- which is the reason why this poll is silly -- and your anger about so and so over so and so is sillier

Agreed. Exactly what I said in the first poll. I'm sure some of these players should be ranked above the current ones, but how I am supposed to judge someone when I've never seen them play?

jkrx 12-02-2012 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bob (Post 56181553)
What's a joke is people like you acting as if you have some knowledge of Red Kelly when you never saw him play.

How many games did Kelly play at D vs F?
Why did Kelly's stats go down in the playoffs?
How did Kelly do in the big games?
What was his defensive game like?
How did he play when he got hit?

All questions you can't answer and I can't answer because we never watched.

It's very tough comparing players from different eras. It's even tougher when you never saw the players --- which is the reason why this poll is silly -- and your anger about so and so over so and so is sillier

I've watched Kelly and I think you are pretty silly. Kelly didnt play that much at forward until '56.

How exactly do you mean that his stats went down in the playoffs?

Anyways heres a bio by BenchBrawl

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...19&postcount=6

Edit: I also recommend that you read round 2 of the defensemen ranking project in the history section for more detailed information on Kelly before you trash someone.

RedWingsNow* 12-02-2012 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 56185755)
I've watched Kelly and I think you are pretty silly. Kelly didnt play that much at forward until '56.

How exactly do you mean that his stats went down in the playoffs?

Anyways heres a bio by BenchBrawl

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...19&postcount=6

Edit: I also recommend that you read round 2 of the defensemen ranking project in the history section for more detailed information on Kelly before you trash someone.

I mean compare his regular season stats vs playoff stats (IN DETROIT--the team we are talking about.

By the way, I'm not trashing Kelly.]
You should learn to read one's words before criticizing someone for things they never said

pdd 12-02-2012 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bob (Post 56181497)
Give it a rest.
While I think Shanny was a big overrated later in his career here, there is no denying 1) his importance to this team in 3 cups, 2) His popularity in Detroit.

Saying he peaked in St. Louis is kind of misleading, too, as NHL scoring took a nosedive while Shanny was in Detroit

Zetterberg's best offensive years in Detroit are better than anything Shanahan did in Detroit. And Z did that while playing elite defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bob (Post 56181553)
What's a joke is people like you acting as if you have some knowledge of Red Kelly when you never saw him play.

How many games did Kelly play at D vs F?

Kelly was only very rarely used at F in Detroit; he was a full-time center in Toronto because the Leafs converted him to match him against Beliveau.

Quote:

It's very tough comparing players from different eras. It's even tougher when you never saw the players --- which is the reason why this poll is silly -- and your anger about so and so over so and so is sillier
If you don't like the nature of the poll, you don't have to participate. I think that was established before when you complained.

sarcastro 12-02-2012 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heaton (Post 56181781)
I'd still take Z over Shanahan. Shanny is a hall of famer and one of the greatest goal scorers ever, but Z has done things in the playoffs that Shanahan never did or could do.

There are too many factors in play to say which one I'd take over which. Do we get them from age 22? For their whole career? In the run and gun early 90s, the trap-happy late 90s and early 00s, the more open late 00s, the re-trapped early 10s? Do we have a lot of centers to go with them? Do we have a lot of scoring wingers? Do we have anybody that can take and give a hit and a punch? Shanny was a better player for longer, at least so far. Who you'd take is dependent on what else you have to work with and what you're missing.

Shanny's a Hall of Famer, Z's not there yet. Even if you compare just their Detroit years, Shanny's 9 Wing years were better than Z's first 9. 57 more goals. 9 more points. 2 more Cups.

The Zetterberg Era 12-02-2012 06:58 PM

Red Kelly is very high especially considering it can be argued his best years were in my least favorite rivals teams jersey. A part of this is the Wings specific for some of us and that is weighted. I mean there is a reason Adam Oates isn't an option in the poll.

jkrx 12-02-2012 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedWings19405 (Post 56192819)
Red Kelly is very high especially considering it can be argued his best years were in my least favorite rivals teams jersey. A part of this is the Wings specific for some of us and that is weighted. I mean there is a reason Adam Oates isn't an option in the poll.

His best years as a defenseman was in Red Wings. Hes best year as an shadowing forward was in Toronto.

RedWingsNow* 12-02-2012 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarcastro (Post 56192519)
There are too many factors in play to say which one I'd take over which. Do we get them from age 22? For their whole career? In the run and gun early 90s, the trap-happy late 90s and early 00s, the more open late 00s, the re-trapped early 10s? Do we have a lot of centers to go with them? Do we have a lot of scoring wingers? Do we have anybody that can take and give a hit and a punch? Shanny was a better player for longer, at least so far. Who you'd take is dependent on what else you have to work with and what you're missing.

Shanny's a Hall of Famer, Z's not there yet. Even if you compare just their Detroit years, Shanny's 9 Wing years were better than Z's first 9. 57 more goals. 9 more points. 2 more Cups.

Without Shanny helping lead the charge in those brawls...I'm not sure Detroit ever gets over the hump and wins a cup.

Who knows if any of this success happens without the first one.

Until the first one happened, it seemed like it might never happen.

Sadekuuro 12-02-2012 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedWings19405 (Post 56192819)
Red Kelly is very high especially considering it can be argued his best years were in my least favorite rivals teams jersey. A part of this is the Wings specific for some of us and that is weighted. I mean there is a reason Adam Oates isn't an option in the poll.

I never saw Kelly, but that's not really fair. He played nearly 13 seasons in Detroit and just over 7 in Toronto. Had his Hart runner-up season in the D in '54. Would've won ~4 straight Norrises in the early 50s had they been given out before that. Wasn't competitive for All-Star nods or individual awards in Toronto.

Personally, I'd take an elite defenseman over a good center in any era.


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