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-   -   Pound for Pound: Best Junior career (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1300057)

daver 12-01-2012 05:53 AM

Pound for Pound: Best Junior career
 
Wayne Gretzky - In his 16 year old season, challenged future NHL stars like Bobby Smith and Dino Ciccarelli for scoring title.

Mario - Incredible 16 year old season, record setting draft year season

Crosby - Best CHL player in 16 year old season, arguably dominated the Q like Mario did in his draft year season

daver 12-01-2012 05:59 AM

I voted Crosby factoring in that Mario played a full year in the Q before his 16 year old season.

Big Phil 12-01-2012 09:16 AM

Mario.

Honestly, how can it not be? 282 points in 70 games is 4 points a game. You can adjust until the cows come home and do everything that can possibly make Mario's numbers look less but in the end we are talking about 4 points on AVERAGE. This means a "bad" game saw Mario get 1 goal and an assist.

Crosby averaged 2.54 PPG which is incredible to say the least, but think back for a second, who was more highly regarded coming out of junior, Mario or Crosby? If you saw both, the hype surrounding Mario was bigger simply because he dominated better than Crosby did.

I am surprised Gretzky is on this poll and not Lindros. In all seriousness, Gretzky had one season in the OHL and that was it. Granted he racked up 182 points as a 16 year old but then he flew to the WHA. Lindros had a 149 point year in his draft year and won a Memorial Cup and two World Junior golds. He's got to be ahead of Gretzky here.

Ed Wood 12-01-2012 01:35 PM

While Denis Potvin only had 31 points in 42 games as a sixteen year old he absolutely dominated the ice. I voted for Mario but Potvin is still the most impressive junior player I ever saw.

jkrx 12-01-2012 01:57 PM

Potvins junior season is one of the strongest Ive seen on any 16 year old. Bobby Orr was better than both Lindros and Gretzky. Orr is up there with Potvin.

LeBlondeDemon10 12-01-2012 03:52 PM

Mario's 16 year old season was 81-82 and he had 30-66-96. His record setting year was when he was 18 and he scored 282 p. Gretzky turned 17 in the middle of his big season with the Greyhounds and Crosby's big year was when he was 17. Its hard to compare their great years because they occurred at different ages for each player.

Hardyvan123 12-02-2012 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Phil (Post 56159643)
Mario.

Honestly, how can it not be? 282 points in 70 games is 4 points a game. You can adjust until the cows come home and do everything that can possibly make Mario's numbers look less but in the end we are talking about 4 points on AVERAGE. This means a "bad" game saw Mario get 1 goal and an assist.

Crosby averaged 2.54 PPG which is incredible to say the least, but think back for a second, who was more highly regarded coming out of junior, Mario or Crosby? If you saw both, the hype surrounding Mario was bigger simply because he dominated better than Crosby did.

I am surprised Gretzky is on this poll and not Lindros. In all seriousness, Gretzky had one season in the OHL and that was it. Granted he racked up 182 points as a 16 year old but then he flew to the WHA. Lindros had a 149 point year in his draft year and won a Memorial Cup and two World Junior golds. He's got to be ahead of Gretzky here.

You have a point about Lindros being on this poll instead of Wayne.

Wood has a valid point about Potvin too but Dmen and forwards are hard to rate.

I took Crosby as he really dominated in both years before his draft more than Mario did overall IMO.

Lafontaine and to a lesser degree other players were closer to Mario in his year before the draft compared to Sid in his year before the draft.

The Q was also considered a better league (compared to the OHL and WHL) in the 00's than in the early 80's when it was the clear weak sister.

It will be very interesting to see how McDavids Jr career stacks up to the guys mentioned here.

tarheelhockey 12-02-2012 01:01 AM

4 points a game is just absurd. He scored more than a point per period... if he only scored once in a period, his average would slip.

I mean... jesus.

thom 12-02-2012 01:10 AM

The Canadian Hockey League named its all-time all star lineup a decade ago.It was called the mastercard all team.They started by naming the all time teams from q to ontario and whl and they ended with a ceremony in Ottawa.The team was at rw Guy Lafleur at Center Mario Lemieux and a left Brian Propp.Defense was Bobby Orr and Denis Potvin I can't think of the goalie but the ceremony was on tv and the chl published a magazine at the time in tribute

Rhiessan71 12-02-2012 01:12 AM

As dominant as Potvin was as a Junior. I think it's kinda jumping the gun to say he was as dominant as Orr.
Orr had 21 points in 34 games as a 14 year old.
72 points in 56 games as a 15 year old. Another 7 points in 6 PO games.
93 points in 56 games as a 16 year old. Another 6 points in 6 PO games.
94 points in 47 games as a 17 year old. Another 28 points in 17 PO games as well as scoring a whopping 36 points in just 12 games in that version of the M-Cup that year.

So while I agree Potvin was incredible, Orr was just ridiculous!


As for the poll...Lemieux looked like a man amongst boys in Junior, it was sick.
Crosby didn't come close to dominating on that kind of level.

Killion 12-02-2012 02:11 AM

Bobby Smith in Ottawa, 1978, chosen Top Jr. over Gretzky... also Lafleur, Clarke
with Flin Flon, Mike Bossy. Those three were beyond prolific goal & point setters.

jkrx 12-02-2012 06:38 AM

Is Crosbys junior seasons even better than Lafontaines?

TieClark 12-02-2012 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 (Post 56178467)
As dominant as Potvin was as a Junior. I think it's kinda jumping the gun to say he was as dominant as Orr.
Orr had 21 points in 34 games as a 14 year old.
72 points in 56 games as a 15 year old. Another 7 points in 6 PO games.
93 points in 56 games as a 16 year old. Another 6 points in 6 PO games.
94 points in 47 games as a 17 year old. Another 28 points in 17 PO games as well as scoring a whopping 36 points in just 12 games in that version of the M-Cup that year.

So while I agree Potvin was incredible, Orr was just ridiculous!


As for the poll...Lemieux looked like a man amongst boys in Junior, it was sick.
Crosby didn't come close to dominating on that kind of level.

This was posted in the contraction thread but I think it definitely applies here too. The level of play from the non-stars of hockey has drastically improved... I don't think it's incorrect to state Crosby was playing against far better talent in junior than Lemieux was.

livewell68 12-02-2012 08:30 AM

Lafleur and Lafontaine should be in this discussion as well as should Orr.

tony d 12-02-2012 08:46 AM

Going with Lemieux here. Over 4 points a game for a 16 year old is mighty impressive.

jack mullet 12-02-2012 09:28 AM

Mario

Irato99 12-02-2012 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony d (Post 56180287)
Going with Lemieux here. Over 4 points a game for a 16 year old is mighty impressive.

You didn't read LeBlondeDemon10's post, Lemieux did that as a 18 year old, his third year in juniors. On his 16 year old season he got 96 pts and he wasn't even close to lead the league.

jkrx 12-02-2012 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TieClark (Post 56180161)
This was posted in the contraction thread but I think it definitely applies here too. The level of play from the non-stars of hockey has drastically improved... I don't think it's incorrect to state Crosby was playing against far better talent in junior than Lemieux was.

I doubt that theory, Lemieux's record season was in a league that included Robitaille, Damphousse, Claude, Richer, Roy and ironically Sids dad. I dont think the standard players has improved so much as it offsets Marios dominance.

TieClark 12-02-2012 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 56181555)
I doubt that theory, Lemieux's record season was in a league that included Robitaille, Damphousse, Claude, Richer, Roy and ironically Sids dad. I dont think the standard players has improved so much as it offsets Marios dominance.

The point wasn't that the top end is better or worse, but rather the depth is far better now than it was before. The third and 4th liners are far better than they were.

jkrx 12-02-2012 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TieClark (Post 56181601)
The point wasn't that the top end is better or worse, but rather the depth is far better now than it was before. The third and 4th liners are far better than they were.

Of course they are better but are they so much better that they offset Lemieux? Extension of that being Crosby being better in the NHL now because 3rd and 4th liners are better too right?

LeBlondeDemon10 12-02-2012 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony d (Post 56180287)
Going with Lemieux here. Over 4 points a game for a 16 year old is mighty impressive.

He wasn't 16; he was 18 when he scored at that pace.

Ed Wood 12-02-2012 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 (Post 56178467)
As dominant as Potvin was as a Junior. I think it's kinda jumping the gun to say he was as dominant as Orr.
Orr had 21 points in 34 games as a 14 year old.
72 points in 56 games as a 15 year old. Another 7 points in 6 PO games.
93 points in 56 games as a 16 year old. Another 6 points in 6 PO games.
94 points in 47 games as a 17 year old. Another 28 points in 17 PO games as well as scoring a whopping 36 points in just 12 games in that version of the M-Cup that year.

So while I agree Potvin was incredible, Orr was just ridiculous!


Orr may have had better numbers offensively but Potvin terrified people. The open ice hits I saw him level as a junior were incredible. I saw him play dozens of times and have never seen another junior player as physically domiment. I never actually got to see Orr play at the junior level so that may would prevent me from making as informed a judgement as I would like.

Long Duk Dong 12-02-2012 06:58 PM

Lemieux. Each year, his point totals increased by about 100 compared to the previous season. That's freaking sick.

Big Phil 12-02-2012 11:31 PM

The polls are going the way I think they should. Mario was just too dominant as a junior. He was also more hyped up than anyone else I have ever seen enter the NHL. More than Crosby for sure, no doubt.

Crosby might even have a tough time winning a poll against a junior Lindros. Then again, maybe not since Lindros sat out half of his rookie year. But at their draft day I think the idea was that Lindros was supposed to be more dominant than Crosby. That is my perception at least.

Rhiessan71 12-03-2012 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Wood (Post 56193101)
Orr may have had better numbers offensively but Potvin terrified people. The open ice hits I saw him level as a junior were incredible. I saw him play dozens of times and have never seen another junior player as physically domiment. I never actually got to see Orr play at the junior level so that may would prevent me from making as informed a judgement as I would like.

Oh for sure, of that I have no doubt.
There's far too many posters that don't realise how punishing and really, downright nasty Potvin was on top of his great talent.

My father, who used to take me to a ton of Guelph Platers and Kitchener Rangers games when I was a kid, did see both Orr and Potvin in their Junior days.
I gave him a call earlier today and asked him about it.
He said that while Potvin was extremely dominant, Orr was just out of this world and he's never seen better.
Just some back ground on my pop so you know it's not just the opinion of an average fan.
He played Junior himself, has coached hockey at every level up to Junior C and even did some minor scouting part time here and there. His late father, my grandfather, was a goalie that played professionally in the 30's and 40's. He met my grandmother in Sask on a western road trip actually ;)

Anyway, suffice to say, my father has seen a hell of a lot of hockey over the years and more importantly, he understands what he was watching.
He taught me to skate when I was 4 and I became a goalie at 7 because of my grandfather and Ken Dryden of course ;)
I always listen closely to what he says, even when we argue about who was better, Yzerman or Sakic. Although I think that has more to do with his hatred of the Redwings. His love is the Blackhawks and he actually cried in '10.


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