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-   -   Do these guys make the HHOF if their career ends (insert year) (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1300137)

Big Phil 12-01-2012 10:58 AM

Do these guys make the HHOF if their career ends (insert year)
 
Alright I'm going to do a poll here. Let's say certain players had their careers cut a little short. Do they still make the HHOF based on this? Here are your options and in the poll you can pick multiple players as to who you thought would still make it.

Selanne retiring in 2004

Pronger retiring in 2004

Niedermayer retiring in 2004

Yzerman retiring in 1996

Francis retiring in 1996

Murphy retiring in 1996 (just a half season before the Red Wings trade)

jkrx 12-01-2012 11:12 AM

Yzerman and Selšnne is the only two I can think will get in from that list and even Selšnne is a maybe.

Both Yzerman and Selšnne have some notorious seasons that the HHoF couldnt ignore.

I'd like to say yes to Murphy but he was a scapegoat in Toronto which doesnt help him.

Pronger, no. Even with that hart he's not even near Lindros who are stilla maybe. Without his playoff record there is no chance for him.

jigglysquishy 12-01-2012 11:13 AM

Selanne would have both under 500 goals and under 1000 points, but I just can't see him not getting in.

He still has the four All-Star team finishes, the 76 goal rookie season, and a Rocket Richard. Having a 34 year-old/880 game retiree with under 1000 points get in the Hall seems a little weird, but his peak really makes it difficult to keep him out.

He'd also miss out on his silver/bronze at the Olympics, and his Cup.

Still can't see him out of the Hall though.

And for Pronger, no way he doesn't get in after 04. Hell, I think if he retired after his Hart season he might still get in.

Big Phil 12-01-2012 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 56161253)
Yzerman and Selšnne is the only two I can think will get in from that list and even Selšnne is a maybe.

Both Yzerman and Selšnne have some notorious seasons that the HHoF couldnt ignore.

I'd like to say yes to Murphy but he was a scapegoat in Toronto which doesnt help him.

Pronger, no. Even with that hart he's not even near Lindros who are stilla maybe. Without his playoff record there is no chance for him.

Murphy would finish in 1995-'96. I don't think he was so much a scapegoat in Toronto until 1996-'97 when they booed him out of town and into the hands of two more Cups (never liked how we did that). So he still has two Cups as a #1 defender and three second team all-stars with some gaudy numbers to go with it that the HHOF might have a hard time ignoring.

No to Pronger huh? Hard to say with him, he'd have played 12 years at that time and we would definitely look at him in a much different light than we do today. Much different.

No one votes Niedermayer yet and I find that a little funny since the media is in love with him as much as anyone else. He's got three Cups, an Olympic gold, a Norris, a 1st and second team all-star, and a World Cup victory. That being said we all know that he really didn't blossom until 2003.

pdd 12-01-2012 11:43 AM

In 1996 Yzerman was fifth All-time in PPG behind only Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, and Bossy; 20th in GPG; 9th in APG, had over 500G and over 1200 points, was top-20 in points, top 20 in goals, and had played less than 1000 games.

Absolutely sick. Yzerman was a stone cold lock by maybe 1993. At that point, he was 5th in PPG behind the same players, and 5th in GPG behind only Lemieux, Bossy, Gretzky, and Robitaille; he was also 8th in APG.

He was 5th (GPG), 8th (APG), and 7th (PPG) after the 90-91 season.

Now remember all of this stuff when people tell you that Yzerman didn't have a high peak.

Hawkey Town 18 12-01-2012 11:46 AM

As C1958 said in the other thread...reason why they are retiring makes a big difference. Are we to believe that they stopped playing because they weren't good enough, got injured, lost the desire to play, or something else?

Big Phil 12-01-2012 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 56161833)
In 1996 Yzerman was fifth All-time in PPG behind only Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, and Bossy; 20th in GPG; 9th in APG, had over 500G and over 1200 points, was top-20 in points, top 20 in goals, and had played less than 1000 games.

Absolutely sick. Yzerman was a stone cold lock by maybe 1993. At that point, he was 5th in PPG behind the same players, and 5th in GPG behind only Lemieux, Bossy, Gretzky, and Robitaille; he was also 8th in APG.

He was 5th (GPG), 8th (APG), and 7th (PPG) after the 90-91 season.

Now remember all of this stuff when people tell you that Yzerman didn't have a high peak.

Have people actually said that? Yeah, pretty indefensible, Yzerman was mind boggling in his prime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 (Post 56161891)
As C1958 said in the other thread...reason why they are retiring makes a big difference. Are we to believe that they stopped playing because they weren't good enough, got injured, lost the desire to play, or something else?

It is hypothetical, so I don't know. I think we should just strictly look at their careers up to that point and assume they retire for a variety of reasons.

TheDevilMadeMe 12-01-2012 02:49 PM

Yzerman probably gets in.

Selanne might, but I'm leaning no. As of 2004, he was basically a less-hyped version of Kariya, right?

Pronger is tough because of the Hart, but probably not.

Niedermayer, Murphy, and Francis are very unlikely.

Wrath 12-01-2012 03:05 PM

Yzerman is a lock, Selanne and Pronger are maybes.

Neidermayer because of media hype? :sarcasm:

TAnnala 12-01-2012 03:27 PM

Yzerman is in without a doubt.

Selanne would probably go trough the same kind of questioning as Kariya does now. I would say he is a borderline case. High peak, but he lack's the awards and Cup. I would probably say no.

Pronger has an outside chance but likely no.

Other's stand basically no chance.

toob 12-01-2012 03:34 PM

Yzerman would be handed his 1st ballot lock guarantee during 93 when he reached 1000 points. That milestone along with his stature just several years back that was being revitalized in 93 was more than enough. 94-06 prolly consists of another weaker seperate hall of fame career.

I personally would put Selanne in myself due to his rookie year and then the late 90s, esp if he retired due to injury but i dont think the HHOF would take him in at that point.

Wrath 12-01-2012 03:43 PM

Well, 94-06 Yzerman might not be considered weaker in all respects, his two way (defensive) game definitely became much better, he also shook off the "choker" label by leading his team to 3 cups (and being in perennial contention for greatest NHL captains in history). He also garnered his only end-year all star team finish in 99-00 (mostly due to Gretz/Mario but still...).

Dissonance 12-01-2012 04:57 PM

Surprised Francis isn't getting many votes. He would almost certainly be a HOFer if he retired after the '95-96 season.

At that point, he was 9th all-time in assists and 19th all-time in points with 1,267. He'd been top-5 in scoring twice, top-10 in assists eight times, played a key role on two Cup champions, and won a Selke.

He might not have been a first-ballot guy but that's more than enough for the Hall.

DaveG 12-01-2012 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 56165485)
Yzerman probably gets in.

Selanne might, but I'm leaning no. As of 2004, he was basically a less-hyped version of Kariya, right?

Pronger is tough because of the Hart, but probably not.

Niedermayer, Murphy, and Francis are very unlikely.

I'd say Yzerman and Francis would have been locks. As Dissonance said Francis maybe waits a bit but that was after his two Cups, his Selke and 2nd in Selke voting, and he already had established huge offensive totals.

Actually looking at it, Joey Mullen and Denis Savard were inducted that year (2000). Francis gets in first ballot. He already had more points then Mullen had in his entire career by the end of the 95-96 season.

Murphy's a bit trickier as Detroit really helped his legacy. But still, #1 dman on two cup winning teams, and one of the top offensive dmen in the league even if it was a particularly strong era for dmen. He'd get in eventually.

TheDevilMadeMe 12-01-2012 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveG (Post 56168417)
I'd say Yzerman and Francis would have been locks. As Dissonance said Francis maybe waits a bit but that was after his two Cups, his Selke and 2nd in Selke voting, and he already had established huge offensive totals.

Actually looking at it, Joey Mullen and Denis Savard were inducted that year (2000). Francis gets in first ballot. He already had more points then Mullen had in his entire career by the end of the 95-96 season.

Interesting comparisons. I think a lot of people think Mullen's place of birth helped him get in. So Francis would have been 19th in career scoring in 1996. That's pretty crazy, considering he only would have had 2 top 10 finishes in points by then. But you're right, it's probably enough to get him in, though probably not first ballot.

Quote:

Murphy's a bit trickier as Detroit really helped his legacy. But still, #1 dman on two cup winning teams, and one of the top offensive dmen in the league even if it was a particularly strong era for dmen. He'd get in eventually.
I consider Paul Coffey the #1 on 1991 Penguins. Was Murphy more important than Ulf Samuelsson on either of the Cup wins? His stats were sure better. Murphy is often considered the weakest defenseman to be inducted into the HHOF in the last decade or so, not that he doesn't deserve it, but that the standards for defensemen are that high. I just don't see him getting in without the Cups and stats he got in Detroit.

vadim sharifijanov 12-01-2012 06:24 PM

if murphy retires at the end of the '96 season, having never played in detroit, these are his career stats:

1234 games, 245 goals, 761 assists, 1006 points

his playoff stats:

148 games, 30 goals, 88 assists, 118 points

good for 6th all time in defenseman games played in the RS (up to '96, so he'd only be 26th all time today), 4th all time in defenseman RS points (only the fourth d-man to hit 1,000; only housley, lidstrom, leetch, and macinnis would pass him), 11th all time in defenseman games played in the playoffs (up to '96, so he'd eventually fall behind lidstrom, stevens, niedermayer, and others), 6th all time in defenseman playoff points (lidstrom, chelios, macinnis, and pronger would all pass him, stevens will eventually tie him).

on paper, that's a hall of fame career, especially when you also consider that he was the #1 defenseman on two cup winners and was a part of the second most famous goal in canadian international history (as gretzky's decoy).

i think detroit pushed murphy to first ballot, and in my opinion undeservedly so. but it's hard to say a defenseman who played that many games and finished with 1,000 points and two cups is not a hall of famer. with the high standard for defensemen, i actually think murphy is borderline, but i can't imagine the actual people who make these decisions not eventually inducting him even if he'd called it quits after his first toronto year.

other than yzerman, i think murphy is probably the most slam dunk of the guys on that list if he'd retired early. everyone else has at least one question mark-- selanne, cups and longevity; pronger, playoffs and longevity; niedermayer, longevity and very short peak; francis, lack of wow factor without the crazy longevity and 4th all time in points/2nd in assists to make up for it. that said, i still think francis is comfortably in (he retires 19th all time in points with two cups and a selke), and selanne is a very good bet. the two younger defensemen would be a harder sell. at least niedermayer has the ridiculous trophy case, minus a fourth cup and his smythe. pronger, especially with the injuries between his hart season and the lockout, would be a huge "what if" case.

Hardyvan123 12-01-2012 08:16 PM

I actually think that all of the guys would make it in as they all would have a pretty good case by the proposed retirement dates and none have the baggage, either real or perceived that Lindros does.

pdd 12-02-2012 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Phil (Post 56161745)
Murphy would finish in 1995-'96. I don't think he was so much a scapegoat in Toronto until 1996-'97 when they booed him out of town and into the hands of two more Cups (never liked how we did that). So he still has two Cups as a #1 defender

Coffey was the #1 for the 91 Cup. He wasn't sent packing until the middle of the 91-92 season. That said, Murphy was a Norris finalist multiple times and a key member of those Pittsburgh teams. He was still considered a top-flight defenseman in Toronto in 1995-96, as well.

Quote:

No to Pronger huh? Hard to say with him, he'd have played 12 years at that time and we would definitely look at him in a much different light than we do today. Much different.
He was a Hart winner and Norris winner. He had been a Norris finalist three times. If you had put 2007, he's guaranteed as no 4-time finalist has been denied entry. But with a Hart, a Norris, and three finalist appearances he's almost certainly a lock.

Quote:

No one votes Niedermayer yet and I find that a little funny since the media is in love with him as much as anyone else. He's got three Cups, an Olympic gold, a Norris, a 1st and second team all-star, and a World Cup victory. That being said we all know that he really didn't blossom until 2003.
And even then, he won the Norris in 2004 more on a combination of taking over the #1 job in New Jersey and Lidstrom having a down offensive year. Realistically, it should have been a tight three-way race between Lidstrom, Chara, and Pronger. Pick one, all would be the "correct" answer.

And again in 2007, Niedermayer finished ahead of Pronger, when Pronger rightfully deserved the Norris. The 2007 selection wouldn't count for this poll, but over his entire career he has a Norris and three first-team selections; he should just have four second-team selections. If he retires in 2004, he's a maybe who probably falls on the "yes" side, but he likely has to wait a while.

And Ron Francis was 19th all-time in points and 9th in assists, with a Selke. It would be pretty hard to argue that he doesn't belong at that point.

pdd 12-02-2012 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toob (Post 56166423)
Yzerman would be handed his 1st ballot lock guarantee during 93 when he reached 1000 points. That milestone along with his stature just several years back that was being revitalized in 93 was more than enough. 94-06 prolly consists of another weaker seperate hall of fame career.

You could probably split Yzerman' career into 1983-84 to 1991-92 and 1992-93 through 2005-06 and he's in the Hall for each set of years. Splitting in 1993 leave too few games for the "second" career.

Big Phil 12-02-2012 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 56178499)
Coffey was the #1 for the 91 Cup. He wasn't sent packing until the middle of the 91-92 season. That said, Murphy was a Norris finalist multiple times and a key member of those Pittsburgh teams. He was still considered a top-flight defenseman in Toronto in 1995-96, as well.

Well, Coffey missed the last two rounds of the postseason in 1991. Murphy was there the whole time and Coffey wasn't around for the 1992 championship while Murphy was. I think that puts him as the #1 d-man on back to back winners.

I noticed Francis isn't getting a lot of love. He ends 1996 with a 119 point season. It would be quite the note to retire on. It wasn't until later in his career that he finally started to get appreciated and removed the tag of "underrated". Do people think that him retiring in 1996 would never have given people the chance to appreciate his talents? He'd have played 15 years at that time and personally I don't see a lot of case against him being inducted.

tony d 12-03-2012 08:57 AM

Yzerman's the only person who would have made the Hall if those guys retired early.

pdd 12-03-2012 09:12 AM

I'm surprised that two people out of 21 have voted against Yzerman.

He had 517 goals and 1255 points in 942 games, and had been nominated for the Selke. He had more points than any other player during his career except for Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux. By the end of 2000 he would pass Lemieux for 2nd, and add a Selke and 1st team selection (although that isn't relevant to this discussion).

He had posted the best non-Gretzky/Lemieux season ever seen in 1988-89.

He had been a top-5 and top-10 scorer many times.

Guaranteed HHOFer.

tarheelhockey 12-03-2012 10:29 AM

This is a great set of questions. Puts a lot of different things into perspective.

Selanne - I don't think he makes it. There's been a pretty vivid increase in respect for him since the lockout, especially since 2007. Not many players get such a large end-of-career boost. In 2004 he was just another 90s player who had a huge rookie year and gradually faded away. Bure might have nudged the door open for him, but I think Bure would have been seen as a better candidate if not for Selanne's post lockout surge. At most he would be one of those 5th-ballot guys that everyone complains about.

Pronger - the playoffs are a huge part of his legacy, but he still had a pretty solid career compared to nearly everyone else in his cohort (especially if we count the career-shortened version of Niedermayer). The Hart win would be played up, as would his general dominance in the early 2000s. I think he'd make it for lack of better peer candidates, and be received as a Sundin type induction with some people ranting about watering down the standards and others raving about how much he deserves it.

Niedermayer - I lol'ed. But no, he would have been a one-Norris guy who happened to win some team awards. It wasn't till 2007 that the media really started riding his jock.

Yzerman - Yes, easily, and in much the same manner that Thornton will have no problem getting in. Cup rings or not, he was one of the very best players in the league for a while and put up huge career numbers even just through 1996. Don't forget he scored that iconic goal against the Blues that spring. Compared to some of his generation's compilers who were inducted, Yzerman is a shoo-in. You couldn't look at the Hall with a straight face if it had Andreychuk and Dino but not Yzerman.

Francis - I dunno. Phil, as you said it wasn't until later that he was really seen as a stand-alone legend rather than a bad-team star and a supporting player with the Pens. It's a little like how I think of Jordan Staal (which is pretty ironic now that I think of it). What has he done by himself? I think his argument would honestly be based almost entirely around stats, which suggests he'd get in eventually and we'd all hate it.

Murphy - This is probably the trickiest. All I know is I would have laughed at the thought of it in 1996. Murphy got a whole lot more respect after he won those Cups and continued to be a solid player into his twilight. I mean, if HF were around in 1996 and someone put up a "Murphy for HOF" poll, would it even remain unlocked for a whole day?

GuineaPig 12-03-2012 10:29 AM

I have a hard time imagining Pronger wouldn't make it. The prestige alone of being the first d-man Hart winner since Orr would probably be enough.

DisgruntledGoat 12-03-2012 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuineaPig (Post 56207247)
I have a hard time imagining Pronger wouldn't make it. The prestige alone of being the first d-man Hart winner since Orr would probably be enough.

I'm not as sure. Hart or no, Pronger in 2004 was considered injury-prone, overpaid and a horrific

If he retires in 2004... Does his Hart get lumped in and written off with Theodore's as a result of voters getting tired of always giving it to forwards?

I think he gets remembered as a promising blueliner who took ages to develop, then had a couple years as a top-flight guy, then had the serious wrist injury and a number of playoff flameouts. Is that legacy as good as Rob Blake's? I'd say no... Because Blake was clutch guy. And Blake appears to be a borderline HHOF candidate in some corners.


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