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-   -   Leland Irving, why doesn't he play with the Heat ?? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1300735)

zrep 12-03-2012 02:40 AM

Leland Irving, why doesn't he play with the Heat ??
 
Is there an explanation ?

thanks

Skobel24 12-03-2012 08:59 AM

Because Taylor and Brust are the two of the top three goalies in the AHL right now.

We've got plenty of goalies in our system right now. Yeah, having Irving walk at FA would be a shame, but he's had the time to develop, and he's currently being outplayed DRASTICALLY by the other two goalies with the Heat.

Stewie Griffin 12-03-2012 11:32 AM

Because he'd be subject to waivers if hockey ever starts this year. If the season is officially cancelled, he'll see more games, since he'll be UFA at the end of this season.

He's signed to a professional tryout, which means he can't appear in more than a specific number of games. It does mean that he can continue to practice with the team indefinitely.

InfinityIggy 12-03-2012 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin (Post 56208429)
Because he'd be subject to waivers if hockey ever starts this year. If the season is officially cancelled, he'll see more games, since he'll be UFA at the end of this season.

He's signed to a professional tryout, which means he can't appear in more than a specific number of games. It does mean that he can continue to practice with the team indefinitely.

This is the correct answer. Combined with the prior answer that both Taylor and Brust have been stellar in the early going's this year.

This idea that Irving is being outplayed just is not true. They are just playing the hot hand right now, if the other two start to falter you will see Irving get more games. He has been good in the ones he has played thus far.

FLAMESFAN 12-03-2012 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfinityIggy (Post 56211035)
This is the correct answer. Combined with the prior answer that both Taylor and Brust have been stellar in the early going's this year.

This idea that Irving is being outplayed just is not true. They are just playing the hot hand right now, if the other two start to falter you will see Irving get more games. He has been good in the ones he has played thus far.

Why do some fans need to defend/make excuses for him? Not 1 person can honestly say they are happy with his progress this year. Taylor is faltering lately, and I'm sure Irving is getting another start soon - what's he going to do with it?

InfinityIggy 12-03-2012 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN (Post 56213425)
Why do some fans need to defend/make excuses for him? Not 1 person can honestly say they are happy with his progress this year. Taylor is faltering lately, and I'm sure Irving is getting another start soon - what's he going to do with it?

Have you watched the AHL games, I mean honestly have you? Brust has been the hot hand so far this season, they won't play anyone else until he starts to suck. Which games has Irving played poorly in then?

Why do some fans need to spout off when they haven't even watched the games?

TheHudlinator 12-03-2012 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN (Post 56213425)
Why do some fans need to defend/make excuses for him? Not 1 person can honestly say they are happy with his progress this year. Taylor is faltering lately, and I'm sure Irving is getting another start soon - what's he going to do with it?

Did you watch his last start where 2 goals were 3-1 ones and one was Kadri rapping around unchecked and snipping a shot top corner. The team played like **** and he ended up with bad numbers but he was easily the best Heat on the ice. He has looked as good as he did before his injury last season stop using a small game sample size to judge him and watch him play he looks just as good as he did in the nhl last year.

Stewie Griffin 12-03-2012 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN (Post 56213425)
Why do some fans need to defend/make excuses for him? Not 1 person can honestly say they are happy with his progress this year. Taylor is faltering lately, and I'm sure Irving is getting another start soon - what's he going to do with it?

I can honestly say that I am happy with his progress. However, I only think Irving won't be more than a #1B goalie in his career. I would have been happier if he played a season in Europe, I suppose.

kirant 12-03-2012 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN (Post 56213425)
Not 1 person can honestly say they are happy with his progress this year.

I'll just jump on the fact that you used an absolute there.

I'm fairly happy with Irving. To be honest, I'd put him above Taylor and Brust as goalies I'd like to see on the Flames after this year. Waivers seem to be the biggest issue.

Rolen 12-03-2012 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN (Post 56213425)
Why do some fans need to defend/make excuses for him? Not 1 person can honestly say they are happy with his progress this year. Taylor is faltering lately, and I'm sure Irving is getting another start soon - what's he going to do with it?

And I'm sure you haven't watched 1 game of his with Abby this year. I for one have watched nearly every Abby game and can tell you that in some games he has absolutely stood on his head. I can't remember which game but I remember him absolutely robbing a player with a Kiprusoffian like save.

The only worries for me about him is the early goal he usually gives up because of him being a little nervous. Which is something that can easily be fixed with some consistent starts. Ignorance is the only thing that can blind people of his potential.

FLAMESFAN 12-04-2012 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfinityIggy (Post 56214373)
Have you watched the AHL games, I mean honestly have you? Brust has been the hot hand so far this season, they won't play anyone else until he starts to suck. Which games has Irving played poorly in then?

Why do some fans need to spout off when they haven't even watched the games?

Like most on here I have caught a few (about a half dozen actually), 1 for sure where he was in net. The majority of the games have been played by Taylor, and not Brust, so there goes your theory. And Taylor has not been the hot hand lately.

Fact is that Irving has been out played by 2 AHL vets so far this year. Sure they have posted some great numbers, but it still does not take away from the fact he is third fiddle.

Look I'm a die hard fan of our team, and I've been cheering for them longer than many of you combined. I've seen many prospects come & go, be highly hyped and fizzle out. If he was as good as many of you claim (many were saying he was one of the best goalie prospects in the league!), you'd think he'd be having a better year, and wouldn't be third fiddle on ANY team.

Some fans like to have blind optimism, and keep the hype machine going, others are more realistic. I've never bad mouthed the kid, and I've said before I hope he proves me wrong. I just find it funny that if anyone does not worship one of our prospects everyone comes out with the classic quotes like "do you even watch the games?"

Janko Unchained 12-04-2012 10:44 AM

Aren't you the same guy that said that Iginla is overrated or something along those lines?

kirant 12-04-2012 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN (Post 56231119)
Like most on here I have caught a few (about a half dozen actually), 1 for sure where he was in net.

1 or 2 games are hardly legitimate sample size. In statistics, the general concept of approaching a mean with samples is 25. Of course, we don't have the luxury of getting that many games. Let's say though that Irving played only 1 game and it was an off night for him, but the others played in some normal games, does that make Irving bad?

If let's say Irving was able to play every game (I'm not 100% sure on his contract status, see below), could make it up to the Flames again without waiver issue, but was benched in favour of Brust/Taylor, then there may be issues. At the moment though, I think there's significant legitimacy to that opposing line of though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN (Post 56231119)
Fact is that Irving has been out played by 2 AHL vets so far this year. Sure they have posted some great numbers, but it still does not take away from the fact he is third fiddle.

The first post you quoted by InfiniteIggy cites a contract issue which your posts do not address (and failed to address in this post) and still stands as a possibility against your argument. If Irving's contract is still on a certain games limitation, then they could be playing him out of contractual problems, not because he's being outplayed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN (Post 56231119)
I just find it funny that if anyone does not worship one of our prospects everyone comes out with the classic quotes like "do you even watch the games?"

Whole different topic then. In that case, this becomes merely a venting of that frustration.

FLAMESFAN 12-04-2012 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Brostopolous (Post 56233675)
Aren't you the same guy that said that Iginla is overrated or something along those lines?

nope, nothing along those lines.

FLAMESFAN 12-04-2012 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirant (Post 56234225)
1 or 2 games are hardly legitimate sample size. In statistics, the general concept of approaching a mean with samples is 25. Of course, we don't have the luxury of getting that many games. Let's say though that Irving played only 1 game and it was an off night for him, but the others played in some normal games, does that make Irving bad?

If let's say Irving was able to play every game (I'm not 100% sure on his contract status, see below), could make it up to the Flames again without waiver issue, but was benched in favour of Brust/Taylor, then there may be issues. At the moment though, I think there's significant legitimacy to that opposing line of though.


The first post you quoted by InfiniteIggy cites a contract issue which your posts do not address (and failed to address in this post) and still stands as a possibility against your argument. If Irving's contract is still on a certain games limitation, then they could be playing him out of contractual problems, not because he's being outplayed.


Whole different topic then. In that case, this becomes merely a venting of that frustration.

Kirant, we have what we have. Yes, the # of games are small, but if we go back to last year it has to be concerning the amount of game action he has been able to get into. You want your stud goalie to get alot of games, not a couple a month. AS for the question in you first paragragh, yes that would make him look bad. But hopefully he'd be able to show that was just a blip, and have a good game soon after.

AS far as the contract issues: what's worse, him not playing so he can't get claimed when there is no hockey, or him not playing? I for one do not like how we are managing this asset.

kirant 12-04-2012 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN (Post 56234845)
Kirant, we have what we have. Yes, the # of games are small, but if we go back to last year it has to be concerning the amount of game action he has been able to get into. You want your stud goalie to get alot of games, not a couple a month.

Ideally, yes as long as the team he's on is aiding his development. At the same time, a coaches' job is to win games, so he'll try to win them instead of doing what may be best for an organization. Some teams (see: Sabres) basically make it a young man's team over attempting to win, sacrificing competitiveness in the process in order to ensure young players are getting ample play time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN (Post 56234845)
AS far as the contract issues: what's worse, him not playing so he can't get claimed when there is no hockey, or him not playing? I for one do not like how we are managing this asset.

It's an interesting question, no doubt. On that topic, I'd say that him not playing because of contract issues is a better situation to own than him not playing because he's not good enough.

But the point I was trying to make was different...that he could be benched because of this contract issue as opposed to being outplayed. This is a different explanation than you provided and one which punches a hole into the idea that he's benched because he's being beaten out by 2 AHL veterans, the notion people take exception to (some because, as you point out, they do have rose coloured glasses on, but some too because this is a, at least in my mind, legitimate reason).

With this in mind, you'd say that him not playing is a calculated gamble by the GMs and coaches so that he can be the backup if the season should resume.

FLAMESFAN 12-04-2012 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirant (Post 56235289)
Ideally, yes as long as the team he's on is aiding his development. At the same time, a coaches' job is to win games, so he'll try to win them instead of doing what may be best for an organization. Some teams (see: Sabres) basically make it a young man's team over attempting to win, sacrificing competitiveness in the process in order to ensure young players are getting ample play time.


It's an interesting question, no doubt. On that topic, I'd say that him not playing because of contract issues is a better situation to own than him not playing because he's not good enough.

But the point I was trying to make was different...that he could be benched because of this contract issue as opposed to being outplayed. This is a different explanation than you provided and one which punches a hole into the idea that he's benched because he's being beaten out by 2 AHL veterans, the notion people take exception to (some because, as you point out, they do have rose coloured glasses on, but some too because this is a, at least in my mind, legitimate reason).

With this in mind, you'd say that him not playing is a calculated gamble by the GMs and coaches so that he can be the backup if the season should resume.


Someone pointed out awhile ago that the PTO contract was for 25 games, with an option to sign for another 25. If that is infact the case, then there should be no worrying about saving games for him. The Heat are now 20 games into the season. If it is only for 25 games, why didn't they have him play in Europe? Why sign Brust at the same time (yes, I know he was Ward's goalie.....) when Irving & Taylor would have been a good 1-2 punch?

TheHudlinator 12-04-2012 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN (Post 56234845)
Kirant, we have what we have. Yes, the # of games are small, but if we go back to last year it has to be concerning the amount of game action he has been able to get into. You want your stud goalie to get alot of games, not a couple a month. AS for the question in you first paragragh, yes that would make him look bad. But hopefully he'd be able to show that was just a blip, and have a good game soon after.

AS far as the contract issues: what's worse, him not playing so he can't get claimed when there is no hockey, or him not playing? I for one do not like how we are managing this asset.

You are completing ignoring the fact that he was hurt after his first call up to the nhl and his numbers suffered, before his call up he had .922 Sv% and 1.95 GAA. So your argument is completely invalid as he was one of the top goalies in the AHL before his callup and his injury but I guess he must suck because he has a 1 bad game in the 4 he has played this year.

TheHudlinator 12-04-2012 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN (Post 56235531)
Someone pointed out awhile ago that the PTO contract was for 25 games, with an option to sign for another 25. If that is infact the case, then there should be no worrying about saving games for him. The Heat are now 20 games into the season. If it is only for 25 games, why didn't they have him play in Europe? Why sign Brust at the same time (yes, I know he was Ward's goalie.....) when Irving & Taylor would have been a good 1-2 punch?

Brust was signed well before the lockout when the flames thought there could be a season, so they should enter the season with potentially no goalie. Again the Flames most likely thought there would be a season so Irving stayed here to stay in shape now I doubt there is anyone looking for more than a backup for a guy that has only played 7 nhl games.

FLAMESFAN 12-04-2012 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGleninator (Post 56235587)
You are completing ignoring the fact that he was hurt after his first call up to the nhl and his numbers suffered, before his call up he had .922 Sv% and 1.95 GAA. So your argument is completely invalid as he was one of the top goalies in the AHL before his callup and his injury but I guess he must suck because he has a 1 bad game in the 4 he has played this year.

yes, you keep bringimg up this injury. What exactly was the injury? It didn't stop him from travling back & forth across the country while being called up and sent back down. He rarely saw action, in either league. And I already know what you are going to bring up next, so please don't say anything about having a baby. It's part of the sport, and all players go through it.

Again, I never once said he sucks. I agree he was a top AHL goalie, and looked very promising. All I am saying is that some of that shine has worn off over the past year due to a host of reasons.

kirant 12-04-2012 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN (Post 56235531)
Someone pointed out awhile ago that the PTO contract was for 25 games, with an option to sign for another 25. If that is infact the case, then there should be no worrying about saving games for him.

I'm not comfortable speaking to the details of the tryout. Is that truly the # of games signed for? It seems a bit high for a PTO. If that indeed the # though, then that within itself isn't a concern.

But I'm not familiar enough with the details. How does this interact with reentry waivers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN (Post 56235531)
If it is only for 25 games, why didn't they have him play in Europe? Why sign Brust at the same time (yes, I know he was Ward's goalie.....) when Irving & Taylor would have been a good 1-2 punch?

As mentioned by TheGleninator, it's because Brust was signed beforehand.

FLAMESFAN 12-04-2012 01:00 PM

What ever the PTO is, if I were a betting man (which I am), I'd bet that he'd be starting again today or Wed.
Looking at the games he played/backed up he has already been dressed 10 times this season:
-Back up game 4 & 5, starter game 6
-Back up game 8, starter game 9
-Back up games 12 & 13, starts games 14 & 15
-Back up game 20

InfinityIggy 12-04-2012 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN (Post 56231119)
Like most on here I have caught a few (about a half dozen actually), 1 for sure where he was in net. The majority of the games have been played by Taylor, and not Brust, so there goes your theory. And Taylor has not been the hot hand lately.

Fact is that Irving has been out played by 2 AHL vets so far this year. Sure they have posted some great numbers, but it still does not take away from the fact he is third fiddle.

Look I'm a die hard fan of our team, and I've been cheering for them longer than many of you combined. I've seen many prospects come & go, be highly hyped and fizzle out. If he was as good as many of you claim (many were saying he was one of the best goalie prospects in the league!), you'd think he'd be having a better year, and wouldn't be third fiddle on ANY team.

Some fans like to have blind optimism, and keep the hype machine going, others are more realistic. I've never bad mouthed the kid, and I've said before I hope he proves me wrong. I just find it funny that if anyone does not worship one of our prospects everyone comes out with the classic quotes like "do you even watch the games?"

So as I said, which games did he play poorly in then?

TherapyforGlencross 12-04-2012 02:27 PM

As said before, Irving will get more starts near the end of the year, since he'll be a UFA. Though, I won't be surprised if he walks.

TheHudlinator 12-04-2012 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN (Post 56236279)
yes, you keep bringimg up this injury. What exactly was the injury? It didn't stop him from travling back & forth across the country while being called up and sent back down. He rarely saw action, in either league. And I already know what you are going to bring up next, so please don't say anything about having a baby. It's part of the sport, and all players go through it.

Again, I never once said he sucks. I agree he was a top AHL goalie, and looked very promising. All I am saying is that some of that shine has worn off over the past year due to a host of reasons.

I believe he had a pulled grown that got worse with more starts but given a game once ever few weeks for the Flames it didn't bother him until he was returned the Heat and was expected to play more frequently and aggravated it which lead to Taylor being given the starting role. I never once brought up his kid that is part of the business but look at his starts this year other than the last game when he was left out to dry by his team he has a SV% of .928 and a GAA of 2.33, I simply don't see how those are poor numbers. Why is he not getting as many starts as Taylor, because Taylor was simply on fire last year and to start this year, and while he has had 2 bad games Ward is a big believer in trusting your goalies and so he is willing to bet that Taylor will bounce back. Not to mention while Taylor was playing the same way as last year Brust broke a 55 year old record for longest shut out if you don't think it is hard to get playing time between those two you are sorrily mistaken.

You said and I quote "Why do some fans need to defend/make excuses for him? Not 1 person can honestly say they are happy with his progress this year. Taylor is faltering lately, and I'm sure Irving is getting another start soon - what's he going to do with it? "

Other than his last game this part isn't even true, you ask why do we need to defend him, well we wouldn't if you didn't make up facts about how he is playing.

Irving has played great when he has played and that is all he can control, he doesn't choose playing time if your so worried about email Troy Ward its his call not Irving's.


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