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-   -   Speculation: Jets - Free Agents, Trades, Rumors, Speculation - Off Season 2012-13 (Part X) (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1300785)

Guerzy 12-03-2012 09:36 AM

Jets - Free Agents, Trades, Rumors, Speculation - Off Season 2012-13 (Part X)
 
Continue on here.

Old thread (Part 9) can be found here.

truck 12-03-2012 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield
No really getting what you are trying to say here?

Brown does dive. Moreso he "goes down easy" rather than outright when nothing touches him, but I can see that people don't always draw a distinction. He has not done it nearly so much in the past two seasons though, and most importantly not once during the playoff run. Brown has always been the clean player more interested in hitting and drawing penalties (with his hitting, speed and mouth as well as going down easy) than being the toughest though, cares little about his reputation if it helps the team win.

You can say that about most divers, I suppose, but many of the worst are also dirty, which drives me nuts (ex Lapierre or Avery back in the day). The big difference for me, is that Brown never tossed his head back when a stick came close, never jumped and did a mid air pirouette, never went down without being touched. Just when he a stick was between his legs, he went down, or he was hooked, etc. There's a reason Brown does not draw nearly as many diving penalties as other famous divers.

Not gonna deny he does that though, no Kings fan will I would think.

Incorrect!!

http://i.imgur.com/Q17c5.gif

Not sure if these youtube vids are gonna work, so I put the links underneath.

Watch them.



http://youtu.be/TGL1cw0w7AE



http://youtu.be/WjtIeg3dnhg



http://youtu.be/oeXxkLhFgn4

...and Doughty for good measure.



http://youtu.be/CtyFWpEa-a4


Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathon Quick
"Maybe if I dive like they do, you get that call, but otherwise I guess you don't."


Also worth noting:

Dustin Brown has led the league in Drawn Penalties since the last lockout, and he did so by a wide margin. He dives a lot!!

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2012/...-aka-stats-the

sully1410 12-03-2012 10:24 AM

Sweet, I'm first.

Edit: Damn you, Truck!

Pavs used to be like my favourite player on the jets, and that DUI happened. The fact that he hid it, to me, showed that he had very little respect for the money and was more concerned about getting paid that having a good relationship with the management based on mutual respect.

I think HC is right on this one. There comes a point in time where you absolutely have to
make the necessary moves to compete.

It's all well and good to say that he might develop into a good goalie some day, but unfortunately that's not now, and the rest of team is ready to go. With the exception of RW depth.

I'd have no trouble giving him another season to see what he can do, but really at the end of that, I think it might be time to start looking.

The last thing I want to do is be in the same slot that Calgary is in. Eventually you have to do something, and upgrading our goaltending would be at least 2nd on my list.

DespoticNewt 12-03-2012 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sully1410 (Post 56207137)
Sweet, I'm first.

Edit: Damn you, Truck!

Pavs used to be like my favourite player on the jets, and that DUI happened. The fact that he hid it, to me, showed that he had very little respect for the money and was more concerned about getting paid that having a good relationship with the management based on mutual respect.

I think HC is right on this one. There comes a point in time where you absolutely have to
make the necessary moves to compete.

It's all well and good to say that he might develop into a good goalie some day, but unfortunately that's not now, and the rest of team is ready to go. With the exception of RW depth.

I'd have no trouble giving him another season to see what he can do, but really at the end of that, I think it might be time to start looking.

The last thing I want to do is be in the same slot that Calgary is in. Eventually you have to do something, and upgrading our goaltending would be at least 2nd on my list.

Did he actually hide it, or was he told to mind his mouth by Walsh? Walsh strikes me as the type of person to do that. I also remember a quote from another player (forgot who) who said the first person they're told to call when they get in trouble is their agent.

Holden Caulfield 12-03-2012 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truck (Post 56206935)
Incorrect!!

http://i.imgur.com/Q17c5.gif

Not sure if these youtube vids are gonna work, so I put the links underneath.

Watch them.



http://youtu.be/TGL1cw0w7AE



http://youtu.be/WjtIeg3dnhg



http://youtu.be/oeXxkLhFgn4

...and Doughty for good measure.



http://youtu.be/CtyFWpEa-a4





Also worth noting:

Dustin Brown has led the league in Drawn Penalties since the last lockout, and he did so by a wide margin. He dives a lot!!

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2012/...-aka-stats-the

You realize drawn penalties are a GOOD THING right? And he does so because of his speed and physicality, the "diving" is a very small part of it.

Only the first Dallas one is illegitimate. He was clearly off balance of the first gif, the last two videos you posted, I have no idea how you can say he dives, when Skrastins takes out his legs because he can't deal with Brown's speed and the last one was a blindside hit.

Yeah the first one was embellishment. There was really very little there. But really, is it his fault the refs make a terrible call?

garret9 12-03-2012 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield (Post 56211381)
You realize drawn penalties are a GOOD THING right? And he does so because of his speed and physicality, the "diving" is a very small part of it.

Only the first Dallas one is illegitimate. He was clearly off balance of the first gif, the last two videos you posted, I have no idea how you can say he dives, when Skrastins takes out his legs because he can't deal with Brown's speed and the last one was a blindside hit.

Yeah the first one was embellishment. There was really very little there. But really, is it his fault the refs make a terrible call?

Yes. Drawn penalties are a good thing, and his speed and physicality do help draw them...

But common. Brown is a diver and embellisher just like Luongo and Kessler. Doesn't make them bad players or ineffective players.

truck 12-03-2012 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield (Post 56211381)
You realize drawn penalties are a GOOD THING right? And he does so because of his speed and physicality, the "diving" is a very small part of it.

Only the first Dallas one is illegitimate. He was clearly off balance of the first gif, the last two videos you posted, I have no idea how you can say he dives, when Skrastins takes out his legs because he can't deal with Brown's speed and the last one was a blindside hit.

Yeah the first one was embellishment. There was really very little there. But really, is it his fault the refs make a terrible call?

Drawn penalties are a great thing, but there are two kinds of players on that list and Brown is definitely more Avery than Sid and Ovi. Obviously Brown is way better than Avery, but he draws penalties a similar way.

I have no idea how you can suggest any of those videos are Brown legitimately being wiped out. He is well known for his diving and embellishment. Everybody knows it. Every one of the announcers knows it Don Cherry knows it.



...and this...



...and this summary...


I like Brown. I like him a lot. I would love to have Brown on my team, but the idea that some people dive in an acceptable way and others don't is silly. A dive is a dive. Brown known as one of the biggest divers in the league yet people call out his opponents in Van and Phx. Silly silly stuff IMO.

Grind 12-03-2012 02:32 PM

When the Jets left the Kings were my B team (A team was Philly). I love Brown, i love those kinds of players, but i'm willing to see the light when he's questioned. Dustin Brown is a diver, and there's no difference between a good diver and a bad diver, a divers a divers a diver. He's good at it, and he's a good hockey player, they aren't two mutually exclusive things, and i still love him despite this frowned upon quality.

It's just like pronger, Pronger is a dirty, nasty, hockey player, and by a lot of accounts, not a very nice human being, but he's damn good at hockey either way. His methods may not be commendable but they work.

I'm not gonna cover up or try and wash it out because their two of my favorite players, i know when i like someone unlikable.

truck 12-03-2012 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grind (Post 56213017)
When the Jets left the Kings were my B team (A team was Philly). I love Brown, i love those kinds of players, but i'm willing to see the light when he's questioned. Dustin Brown is a diver, and there's no difference between a good diver and a bad diver, a divers a divers a diver. He's good at it, and he's a good hockey player, they aren't two mutually exclusive things, and i still love him despite this frowned upon quality.

It's just like pronger, Pronger is a dirty, nasty, hockey player, and by a lot of accounts, not a very nice human being, but he's damn good at hockey either way. His methods may not be commendable but they work.

I'm not gonna cover up or try and wash it out because their two of my favorite players, i know when i like someone unlikable.

Agreed. I really like Brown too. Would love to have him on the Jets, but he is still a diver.

The media story lines and the public perception of players is something that I always find to be very intriguing.
  • Two players can dive repeatedly, but people perceive them to be very different types of players.
  • Two players can repeatedly make the same dirty dirty hits, one is a leader that plays on the edge, the other is a rat and a dirty player.
  • Two players can repeatedly stink in the post season. One is now incapable of post season success, the other is a clutch player that had a bad year (5 times).
  • Two players can have the exact same levels of success in the playoffs as they do in the regular season, one is clutch and the other can't rise to the occasion.

What people see and what people remember isn't always what happened, and that amuses me as much as anything in sports.

Grind 12-03-2012 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truck (Post 56213673)
Agreed. I really like Brown too. Would love to have him on the Jets, but he is still a diver.

The media story lines and the public perception of players is something that I always find to be very intriguing.
  • Two players can dive repeatedly, but people perceive them to be very different types of players.
  • Two players can repeatedly make the same dirty dirty hits, one is a leader that plays on the edge, the other is a rat and a dirty player.
  • Two players can repeatedly stink in the post season. One is now incapable of post season success, the other is a clutch player that had a bad year (5 times).
  • Two players can have the exact same levels of success in the playoffs as they do in the regular season, one is clutch and the other can't rise to the occasion.

What people see and what people remember isn't always what happened, and that amuses me as much as anything in sports.

Amuses and CONFOUNDS me at the same time. It's interesting to note, and funny to point out. Confounding for it to have no effect on some fans already-made-up-my-mind notion of "who" that player is. No amount of stats or continuing failures will change a mass view of Luongo or MAF- and don't get me started on Clutch again...

It's basic psychology, if something is memorable, we exponentially increase the importance of it in our memory, regardless if it had any effect what so ever.

Holden Caulfield 12-03-2012 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truck (Post 56213673)
Agreed. I really like Brown too. Would love to have him on the Jets, but he is still a diver.

The media story lines and the public perception of players is something that I always find to be very intriguing.
  • Two players can dive repeatedly, but people perceive them to be very different types of players.
  • Two players can repeatedly make the same dirty dirty hits, one is a leader that plays on the edge, the other is a rat and a dirty player.
  • Two players can repeatedly stink in the post season. One is now incapable of post season success, the other is a clutch player that had a bad year (5 times).
  • Two players can have the exact same levels of success in the playoffs as they do in the regular season, one is clutch and the other can't rise to the occasion.

What people see and what people remember isn't always what happened, and that amuses me as much as anything in sports.

Meh if you guys can't see the difference between a dive and an embellishment, whatever.

Brown is a diver by your standards then, fine. I admitted that above, he does go down easy.

But what you said in this quote is part of what I am talking about. People talked a little about Brown diving, now he is the worst diver in the league, partly due to the fact that he had success recently (people are envious of success). He is nowhere near the level of Kesler, Luongo, Avery (:shakehead: ANY comparison between Avery and Brown is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard). If you went through the season watching all Kings games, I would bet even if you took out all of Brown's "dives" he still leads the league in drawn penalties, it's the style he plays, it's incredibly hard to contain.

But believe what you want. S'all good. I am done talking about this, I have had this very same conversation too many times. Take the last word if you want.

Sweech 12-03-2012 09:41 PM

What do some of you guys think we could get if we dealed Pavelec?

/who would we start in that scenario?

Paradise 12-03-2012 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweech (Post 56224033)
What do some of you guys think we could get if we dealed Pavelec?

/who would we start in that scenario?

It would depend on which team we were dealing him to. Edmonton, Toronto and Chicago would be the most likely teams that would show interest IMO. I think it's a counter productive idea, since we don't have someone better or equal to him in our system. If we're getting a starting goalie back as part of the trade, then that would effect the overall value coming back as a return. Based on my points, I don't do the deal.

DespoticNewt 12-03-2012 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paradise (Post 56224567)
It would depend on which team we were dealing him to. Edmonton, Toronto and Chicago would be the most likely teams that would show interest IMO. I think it's a counter productive idea, since we don't have someone better or equal to him in our system. If we're getting a starting goalie back as part of the trade, then that would effect the overall value coming back as a return. Based on my points, I don't do the deal.

That, and regardless of our defensive system we had last year, Pavs was easily in the bottom third of goalies for SV%. His European stint did nothing to increase his stock, either. We're likely going to have him until UFA.

truck 12-03-2012 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paradise (Post 56224567)
It would depend on which team we were dealing him to. Edmonton, Toronto and Chicago would be the most likely teams that would show interest IMO. I think it's a counter gproductive idea, since we don't have someone better or equal to him in our system. If we're getting a starting goalie back as part of the trade, then that would effect the overall value coming back as a return. Based on my points, I don't do the deal.

If any of those teams wanted Pav, they would be looking for him to start. That would put their starter on the table and make the trades workable IMO.

Edmonton
Pav for Dubnyk and Paajarvi or Harikainen or Smid would make me very very very happy.

Chicago
Pav for Crawford and Saad or K Hayes or Pirri or McNeill or Teravainen

Toronto
Pav for Reimer and Finn or Kadri or a real roster player, depends how desperate they are.

Sweech 12-03-2012 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truck (Post 56226535)
If any of those teams wanted Pav, they would be looking for him to start. That would put their starter on the table and make the trades workable IMO.

Edmonton
Pav for Dubnyk and Paajarvi or Harikainen or Smid would make me very very very happy.

Chicago
Pav for Crawford and Saad or K Hayes or Pirri or McNeill or Teravainen

Toronto
Pav for Reimer and Finn or Kadri or a real roster player, depends how desperate they are.

This is along the lines of what I've been thinking could become a really great deal for us.

DespoticNewt 12-03-2012 11:08 PM

Dubnyk and Reimer have potential in a trade, to be sure. I'm sure Reimer would welcome getting out of the TO pressure cooker, and he'd love to be playing close to home on a regular basis. I haven't seen enough of Dubnyk to make a judgement, but Edmonton seems to be grooming him as their starter.

sully1410 12-04-2012 12:23 AM

That being said, there is also a few goalies that could be acquired via trade elsewhere. Its plausible that Washington could be considering trading Neuvrith(sp) after his comments supporting Hamrlik. Apparently Bernier could be up for grabs.

If I was Mike Gillis, I'd be actively shopping both of my goalies and seeing which return benefitted the team most. That being said, Something around Pavelec could possibly be worked out for Schneider. I know most vancouver fans would recoil at this, but I actually think it would be fairly even TBH. Schneider may have a higher ceiling, but Pavelec is more proven, showing that he can preform fairly well on a much worse team. I would imagine his numbers would improve loads with a better overall team.

I also wouldn't mind the Reimer deal. He was looking very good before he got clobbered.

All that being said though, I don't think this is something I would be willing to risk. Any single one of these deals could put us in the exact same position that we are currently in. I think I would only trade Pavs if we had a proven starter coming in(like the Luongo scenario, don't think it will happen, but it'd be funny to see Jet's face melt if it did lol). Alot of these guys have proven the exact same amount as Pavelec, sometimes less. Schneider, though good, could end up being a flop once he actually starts to play 65 games a year. Thats a huge jump, and it will result in him being constantly scouted by opposing teams. Same thing happened to Lu.

Maybe Carey Price is available....

Paradise 12-04-2012 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truck (Post 56226535)
If any of those teams wanted Pav, they would be looking for him to start. That would put their starter on the table and make the trades workable IMO.

Edmonton
Pav for Dubnyk and Paajarvi or Harikainen or Smid would make me very very very happy.

Chicago
Pav for Crawford and Saad or K Hayes or Pirri or McNeill or Teravainen

Toronto
Pav for Reimer and Finn or Kadri or a real roster player, depends how desperate they are.

I'm not really interested in downgrading our goalie IMO. I still have faith in Pavs to improve in the future. Adding those types of prospects is too much fantasy for me to consider realistically.

Bring back NHL hockey please!

garret9 12-04-2012 12:40 AM

Can we just get a cloning machine and clone Roy or Hasek in their primes?

Paradise 12-04-2012 12:50 AM

Most of Pavs value is based on his potential. The teams that were listed aren't going to give up good prospects plus their starter for Pavs. Lets be realistic here. Do people think those other goalies wouldn't be ridiculed here either?

Paradise 12-04-2012 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garret9 (Post 56228617)
Can we just get a cloning machine and clone Roy or Hasek in their primes?

How about Hasek or Brodeur? I can't stand Roy at all.

Holden Caulfield 12-04-2012 12:56 AM

Yeah agreed with Paradise. We won't get the big value for Pavelec. For example a Pavelec for Dubnyk swap would basically be nothing more than a lateral move for both teams, not sure why Edmonton would add any value to the trade? Crawford is a step backwards for Winnipeg in terms of age and skill level, something Winnipeg cannot afford. Reimer for Pavelec is basically another lateral swap, with Reimer maybe having little less proven. At least from the other teams perspectives, why would they add anything significant onto a potential for potential trade?

As much as I'd love to add a top flight goalie, I think he best move right now is to ride out Pavelec's career swing. Sure keep looking in the draft/via trade for younger guy that might still away Pav's spot soon if Pavelec does not continue to develop, but right now we have little choice but to chain all our hopes on Pavelec.

Hopefully he can take that next step. If he can't, well, we'll cross that bridge when we get there, IMO.

truck 12-04-2012 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sully1410 (Post 56228381)
That being said, there is also a few goalies that could be acquired via trade elsewhere. Its plausible that Washington could be considering trading Neuvrith(sp) after his comments supporting Hamrlik. Apparently Bernier could be up for grabs.

If I was Mike Gillis, I'd be actively shopping both of my goalies and seeing which return benefitted the team most. That being said, Something around Pavelec could possibly be worked out for Schneider. I know most vancouver fans would recoil at this, but I actually think it would be fairly even TBH. Schneider may have a higher ceiling, but Pavelec is more proven, showing that he can preform fairly well on a much worse team. I would imagine his numbers would improve loads with a better overall team.

I also wouldn't mind the Reimer deal. He was looking very good before he got clobbered.

All that being said though, I don't think this is something I would be willing to risk. Any single one of these deals could put us in the exact same position that we are currently in. I think I would only trade Pavs if we had a proven starter coming in(like the Luongo scenario, don't think it will happen, but it'd be funny to see Jet's face melt if it did lol). Alot of these guys have proven the exact same amount as Pavelec, sometimes less. Schneider, though good, could end up being a flop once he actually starts to play 65 games a year. Thats a huge jump, and it will result in him being constantly scouted by opposing teams. Same thing happened to Lu.

Maybe Carey Price is available....

I don't agree with any of this...

Corey has nothing to prove relative to Pav. Pav has handled a boat load of starts and all Pav has proven is that he is a terrible starting goalie.

Corey is considered the concensus #1 goalie in the world that hasn't had a starting NHL gig. Zero scouts think Pav is better now or will be in the future.

No idea what you mean about people figuring out Lu either. That hasn't happened.

truck 12-04-2012 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paradise (Post 56228589)
I'm not really interested in downgrading our goalie IMO. I still have faith in Pavs to improve in the future. Adding those types of prospects is too much fantasy for me to consider realistically.

Bring back NHL hockey please!

IMO Dubnyk would be a lateral move or possibly an upgrade. Dubnyk was more consistent than Pav last year. Sure, Pav has more upside, but I don't believe he will get there and I don't think he cares to try.


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