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-   -   Greater redwing: Kelly or Fedorov (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1300845)

newfy 12-03-2012 11:10 AM

Greater redwing: Kelly or Fedorov
 
What do you guys thnik of that question?

Was Kelly in his time as a wing greater than Fedorov in is time with the wings?

I see Kelly as an all time great, won the first Norris and probably shouldve won 3 before that. A bunch of 1st team all stars, the number 1 dman on the greatest red wings teams ever ssembled and the versatility to play forward when his team needed him.

Fedorov had the versatility and a VERY high peak, but for the most part I see him as a consistent 65 point center that brought it in playoffs and coasted quite a bit through the season (part of the reason he got put on D).

What do you think?

jkrx 12-03-2012 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfy (Post 56207977)
What do you guys thnik of that question?

Was Kelly in his time as a wing greater than Fedorov in is time with the wings?

I see Kelly as an all time great, won the first Norris and probably shouldve won 3 before that. A bunch of 1st team all stars, the number 1 dman on the greatest red wings teams ever ssembled and the versatility to play forward when his team needed him.

Fedorov had the versatility and a VERY high peak, but for the most part I see him as a consistent 65 point center that brought it in playoffs and coasted quite a bit through the season (part of the reason he got put on D).

What do you think?

You probably know my stand on this. Right?

Dreakmur 12-03-2012 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfy (Post 56207977)
What do you guys thnik of that question?

Was Kelly in his time as a wing greater than Fedorov in is time with the wings?

I see Kelly as an all time great, won the first Norris and probably shouldve won 3 before that. A bunch of 1st team all stars, the number 1 dman on the greatest red wings teams ever ssembled and the versatility to play forward when his team needed him.

Fedorov had the versatility and a VERY high peak, but for the most part I see him as a consistent 65 point center that brought it in playoffs and coasted quite a bit through the season (part of the reason he got put on D).

What do you think?

Red Kelly and it's not even close.

Rhiessan71 12-03-2012 01:47 PM

Have to go with Kelly.

But I don't have either of them in my top 5 Redwings list.

#1) Howe
#2) Yzerman
#3) Lindsay
#4) Lidstrom
#5) Sawchuk

Hockey Outsider 12-03-2012 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfy (Post 56207977)
I see Kelly as an all time great, won the first Norris and probably shouldve won 3 before that. A bunch of 1st team all stars, the number 1 dman on the greatest red wings teams ever ssembled and the versatility to play forward when his team needed him.

Red Kelly was a unanimous all-star in each of 1951, 1952 and 1953. He was ahead of the next closest defensemen by solid margins (90-68, 90-71 and 90-56). I think it's safe to consider him a four-time Norris trophy winner.

newfy 12-03-2012 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 (Post 56211833)
Have to go with Kelly.

But I don't have either of them in my top 5 Redwings list.

#1) Howe
#2) Yzerman
#3) Lindsay
#4) Lidstrom
#5) Sawchuk

Thats about the same as my list as well. I was just curious because on the wings board theyre doing a vote for best wings all time and Fedorov is ahead of Kelly and I'm getting called out for saying thats ridiculous. jkrx is one of the few with sense on the subject

TheDevilMadeMe 12-03-2012 02:19 PM

Red Kelly is largely forgotten by Wings fans because he left the organization on bad terms, so they refused to retire his jersey. While there, he was a better and more important player than Ted Lindsay or Terry Sawchuk.

DanZ 12-03-2012 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 56212655)
Red Kelly is largely forgotten by Wings fans because he left the organization on bad terms, so they refused to retire his jersey. While there, he was a better and more important player than Ted Lindsay or Terry Sawchuk.

Sounds like Fedorov...

TheDevilMadeMe 12-03-2012 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanZ (Post 56213177)
Sounds like Fedorov...

Yes, but Fedorov is new enough to be remembered by anyone over the age of 25.

jkrx 12-03-2012 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanZ (Post 56213177)
Sounds like Fedorov...

Well Fedorov left on bad terms while Red Kelly was dishonored. They didnt play fair back then. Just read about the whole Lindsay ordeal.

newfy 12-03-2012 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 56213431)
Well Fedorov left on bad terms while Red Kelly was dishonored. They didnt play fair back then. Just read about the whole Lindsay ordeal.

Yep back then leaving on bad terms because he told a reporter he may have been playing worse because he had a sore ankle months after (when he played playoffs with a broken ankle) is not the same as holding out for a bigger contract from one of the most player friendly owners in sports like Fedorov

tarheelhockey 12-03-2012 03:12 PM

I'm going with the crowd here and saying Kelly.

Rhiessan71 12-03-2012 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfy (Post 56213939)
Yep back then leaving on bad terms because he told a reporter he may have been playing worse because he had a sore ankle months after (when he played playoffs with a broken ankle) is not the same as holding out for a bigger contract from one of the most player friendly owners in sports like Fedorov

Not to mention that when he became an UFA, he signed with the Ducks for less money than the Wings offered.

Nothing like just a little more spit in the eye on his way out the door eh.

And now, there's the more recent Russian articles with him badmouthing the Wings, Bowman and many of his teammates.

tarheelhockey 12-03-2012 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 (Post 56214205)
Not to mention that when he became an UFA, he signed with the Ducks for less money than the Wings offered.

And the offer sheet he signed from the Hurricanes, knowing perfectly well what he was doing to Ilitch in the process.

Big Phil 12-03-2012 03:38 PM

Kelly.............rather easily. A top 10 defenseman on more than 50% of lists, including mine

jkrx 12-03-2012 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 (Post 56214205)
Not to mention that when he became an UFA, he signed with the Ducks for less money than the Wings offered.

Nothing like just a little more spit in the eye on his way out the door eh.

And now, there's the more recent Russian articles with him badmouthing the Wings, Bowman and many of his teammates.

At the same time, this is a different era where players leaving teams is much more acceptable. But I agree, Fedorov was a bit of ******* in the way he handled things. Just, let us not pretend that leaving as an UFA now is the same thing as leaving a team in the O6 era.

Actually, my grandson went through some old magazines he had and showed me an article about the Roenick trade. Bobby Hull made a big point about how players were loyal to their teams back then while now its all about the money.

On a side note. Just think that Wirtz interfered with the Hawks - Blues trade. According to the article Blues offered Hull, Corson and another player for Roenick but Wirtz said no due to the history with Bobby Hull.

tarheelhockey 12-03-2012 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 56214657)
At the same time, this is a different era where players leaving teams is much more acceptable. But I agree, Fedorov was a bit of ******* in the way he handled things. Just, let us not pretend that leaving as an UFA now is the same thing as leaving a team in the O6 era.

Actually, my grandson went through some old magazines he had and showed me an article about the Roenick trade. Bobby Hull made a big point about how players were loyal to their teams back then while now its all about the money.

From what I understand, Kelly did not choose to leave the Red Wings. He was blackballed off the team for what even at that time was a ridiculously petty reason.

Kelly's only contribution was to assert himself and change his destination from New York to Toronto. I don't hold that against him at all, though I might have a different perspective if I were a Rangers fan back then.

vadim sharifijanov 12-03-2012 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 56214657)
At the same time, this is a different era where players leaving teams is much more acceptable. But I agree, Fedorov was a bit of ******* in the way he handled things. Just, let us not pretend that leaving as an UFA now is the same thing as leaving a team in the O6 era.

Actually, my grandson went through some old magazines he had and showed me an article about the Roenick trade. Bobby Hull made a big point about how players were loyal to their teams back then while now its all about the money.

On a side note. Just think that Wirtz interfered with the Hawks - Blues trade. According to the article Blues offered Hull, Corson and another player for Roenick but Wirtz said no due to the history with Bobby Hull.

yeah, pretty ironic that bobby hull of all people would say that. he's not exactly orr in terms of loyalty. (not to begrudge hull for the decisions that he made; makes no sense to be loyal to some of those 06 GMs when they'd just as soon harvest your kidneys and leave you in a bathtub of ice.)

jkrx 12-03-2012 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov (Post 56214959)
yeah, pretty ironic that bobby hull of all people would say that. he's not exactly orr in terms of loyalty. (not to begrudge hull for the decisions that he made; makes no sense to be loyal to some of those 06 GMs when they'd just as soon harvest your kidneys and leave you in a bathtub of ice.)

It's not really ironic. Hawks never offered him a contract so he bolted to the WHA. For more money, yes but who knows what would have happened if it wasnt for hawks managements pride?

vadim sharifijanov 12-03-2012 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx (Post 56214997)
It's not really ironic. Hawks never offered him a contract so he bolted to the WHA. For more money, yes but who knows what would have happened if it wasnt for hawks managements pride?

huh, i did not know that.

but maybe it's still ironic in that bobby hull had seen firsthand that most players' loyalty had not been reciprocated by the franchises they played for. so it kind of doesn't make sense for roenick to display an 06 kind of loyalty to the hawks, especially when their owner was wirtz, who was the worst kind of owner on those grounds.

jkrx 12-03-2012 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov (Post 56215139)
huh, i did not know that.

but maybe it's still ironic in that bobby hull had seen firsthand that most players' loyalty had not been reciprocated by the franchises they played for. so it kind of doesn't make sense for roenick to display an 06 kind of loyalty to the hawks, especially when their owner was wirtz, who was the worst kind of owner on those grounds.

No, no, Ive wrote it a bit clumsy. He was in the opinion that Hawks did a mistake and he wasnt attacking Roenick at all.

pdd 12-03-2012 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 (Post 56214205)
Not to mention that when he became an UFA, he signed with the Ducks for less money than the Wings offered.

Nothing like just a little more spit in the eye on his way out the door eh.

Fedorov had been offered a 5year, $50m deal by the Wings. He was going through a divorce, and asked for some time to deal with his personal issues. When he was ready to sign, the offer was for 4 years, $40m. The Wings weren't willing to put the 5th year back on. Fedorov wanted the security of 5 years, and signed a 5 year, $40m deal with Anaheim.

To date, I consider that Ken Holland's biggest mistake.

Quote:

And now, there's the more recent Russian articles with him badmouthing the Wings, Bowman and many of his teammates.
Source? Fedorov still maintains a home in the Detroit area and the only things I've ever read regarding him commenting on Detroit are positive.

Rhiessan71 12-03-2012 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 56223165)
Fedorov had been offered a 5year, $50m deal by the Wings. He was going through a divorce, and asked for some time to deal with his personal issues. When he was ready to sign, the offer was for 4 years, $40m. The Wings weren't willing to put the 5th year back on. Fedorov wanted the security of 5 years, and signed a 5 year, $40m deal with Anaheim.

To date, I consider that Ken Holland's biggest mistake.



Source? Fedorov still maintains a home in the Detroit area and the only things I've ever read regarding him commenting on Detroit are positive.

There was a thread around here talking about it not that long ago.

Here... http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=704691

If you follow the story, it even garners a response from Bowman himself about it all.

Reds4Life 12-03-2012 11:55 PM

Red Kelly, but I think it's closer than most people in this thread imply.

Sergei Fedorov at his best was a gamebreaker and a playoff monster. Wings would not have won all those Cups without him.

I hope both of these guys get their number retired eventually.

newfy 12-04-2012 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 56223165)
Fedorov had been offered a 5year, $50m deal by the Wings. He was going through a divorce, and asked for some time to deal with his personal issues. When he was ready to sign, the offer was for 4 years, $40m. The Wings weren't willing to put the 5th year back on. Fedorov wanted the security of 5 years, and signed a 5 year, $40m deal with Anaheim.

To date, I consider that Ken Holland's biggest mistake.



Source? Fedorov still maintains a home in the Detroit area and the only things I've ever read regarding him commenting on Detroit are positive.

I think Fedorovs great but that really seems like a cop out. He wanted the security of a 5 year deal instead of a 4 year deal making the same money? Even if he signed on for a 5th year at league minimum with the wings after his 4th year was done he would make more money than the deal he signed with the ducks. Not to mention he would have more freedoms to go after another big contract a year earlier and not have to deal with relocating to a new city.

That 5 year deal offers much less security


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