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-   -   Speculation: Luongo: the continuing saga ... (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1300863)

spiny norman 12-03-2012 12:47 PM

Luongo: the continuing saga ...
 
You know the drill. Get an infraction in here, get removed from the entire trade board.

previous thread

Vankiller Whale 12-03-2012 12:59 PM

Did anyone ever find the link to the Pierre McGuire thing? I want to know how the Bozak + Kadri thing came up in conversation. Was it like "Bozak + Kadri done deal" kind of thing, or "I'd expect players like Kadri or Bozak to be of interest", or what?

Liferleafer 12-03-2012 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 56209177)
Did anyone ever find the link to the Pierre McGuire thing? I want to know how the Bozak + Kadri thing came up in conversation. Was it like "Bozak + Kadri done deal" kind of thing, or "I'd expect players like Kadri or Bozak to be of interest", or what?

I don't have the link...i'm also not sure how much stock i pit in it.

sully1410 12-03-2012 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 56209177)
Did anyone ever find the link to the Pierre McGuire thing? I want to know how the Bozak + Kadri thing came up in conversation. Was it like "Bozak + Kadri done deal" kind of thing, or "I'd expect players like Kadri or Bozak to be of interest", or what?

What's all the hype with this Bozak character anyways? I know he preformed well in junior or college or whatever...but I've heard alot hot and cold about the guy.

My biggest issue with any trade surrounding Luongo is that every one always throws in the top ten protected. Does that mean if the team sucks even with Luongo...Vancouver loses out on part of the deal? Or does it just get carried over until the leafs make the playoffs?

Sypher04 12-03-2012 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sully1410 (Post 56209887)
What's all the hype with this Bozak character anyways? I know he preformed well in junior or college or whatever...but I've heard alot hot and cold about the guy.

My biggest issue with any trade surrounding Luongo is that every one always throws in the top ten protected. Does that mean if the team sucks even with Luongo...Vancouver loses out on part of the deal? Or does it just get carried over until the leafs make the playoffs?

When you talk about protected picks, it usually just mean it defers to another previously agreed upon year.

Vankiller Whale 12-03-2012 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sully1410 (Post 56209887)
What's all the hype with this Bozak character anyways? I know he preformed well in junior or college or whatever...but I've heard alot hot and cold about the guy.

My biggest issue with any trade surrounding Luongo is that every one always throws in the top ten protected. Does that mean if the team sucks even with Luongo...Vancouver loses out on part of the deal? Or does it just get carried over until the leafs make the playoffs?

It could either be changed to a 2nd if they miss the playoffs, or gets pushed off until the next time the Leafs make the playoffs. It doesn't matter too much to me, because I am positive the Leafs make the playoffs with Luongo.

Personally I'm not that interested in Bozak, but apparently there have been a lot of rumours about him being involved, so who knows?

NYVanfan 12-03-2012 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sully1410 (Post 56209887)
What's all the hype with this Bozak character anyways? I know he preformed well in junior or college or whatever...but I've heard alot hot and cold about the guy.

My biggest issue with any trade surrounding Luongo is that every one always throws in the top ten protected. Does that mean if the team sucks even with Luongo...Vancouver loses out on part of the deal? Or does it just get carried over until the leafs make the playoffs?

the former, i think
though not sure ive ever seen a pick trade stipulation like that in real life.
i think it's incredibly unlikely that the leafs finish in the bottom 3rd of nets w Luongo, so it's irrelevant...

the rumoured Bozak and Kadri deal would be palatable as long as the 1st is included.

but in truth I haven't watched much of either of these guys ...just loads and loads of type on these boards for the mostpart...

it strikes me that we'd be giving the best player in the deal by a country mile

DJOpus 12-03-2012 01:34 PM

Last thread I made a comment that the Leafs would be almost as good as Vancouver if they got the goaltending that Vancouver got.

Here's how I came to that conclusion.

Last year, the Sedins, Kesler, Booth, Raymond, and basically everyone of the Canucks except Hansen had an off year. Blame the short off-season, blame bad coaching, blame injuries but that's what happened. In terms of goals for, the Canucks were tied for 4th and the Leafs were 9th.

I think going forward the Canucks have a better offense but last year it was pretty close because while the Canucks slumped, Kessel, Lupul and Bozak put up their best seasons ever by significant margins. As a Leaf fan, if you think that Kessel, Lupul, and Bozak will continue to do well while the Canucks stars will continue to not preform at or near their peak, I think its safe to assume that the Leafs will have similar offensive numbers to the Canucks.

Defensively, the Canucks allowed basically the same amount of shots and same amount of chances (yes people actually keep that stat) as the Leafs. The Canucks finished 4th in goals against while the Leafs finished 29th. This is the biggest difference between the two teams. Switch this around and the Leafs are competing for home ice while the Canucks are likely missing the playoffs.

Add empty net goals to the equation and things get even closer for goal for and further apart for goals against.

That's why I was saying that switching goalies would basically switch the teams fortunes. The teams wouldn't be completely equal but let's be honest here, we are comparing a back to back President's trophy team to a team that hasn't made the playoffs in a while...one player isn't going to completely close the gap but a top goalie would make the gap pretty small (if you assume Lupul and Kessel can keep it up).

NOTE: As a Canucks fan, the reason I am not prepared to offer top 10 protection on a pick is that I wouldn't want to gamble on Kessel and Lupul putting up similar totals next year.

Luck 6 12-03-2012 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJOpus (Post 56210093)
Last thread I made a comment that the Leafs would be almost as good as Vancouver if they got the goaltending that Vancouver got.

Here's how I came to that conclusion.

Last year, the Sedins, Kesler, Booth, Raymond, and basically everyone of the Canucks except Hansen had an off year. Blame the short off-season, blame bad coaching, blame injuries but that's what happened. In terms of goals for, the Canucks were tied for 4th and the Leafs were 9th.

I think going forward the Canucks have a better offense but last year it was pretty close because while the Canucks slumped, Kessel, Lupul and Bozak put up their best seasons ever by significant margins. As a Leaf fan, if you think that Kessel, Lupul, and Bozak will continue to do well while the Canucks stars will continue to not preform at or near their peak, I think its safe to assume that the Leafs will have similar offensive numbers to the Canucks.

Defensively, the Canucks allowed basically the same amount of shots and same amount of chances (yes people actually keep that stat) as the Leafs. The Canucks finished 4th in goals against while the Leafs finished 29th. This is the biggest difference between the two teams. Switch this around and the Leafs are competing for home ice while the Canucks are likely missing the playoffs.

Add empty net goals to the equation and things get even closer for goal for and further apart for goals against.

That's why I was saying that switching goalies would basically switch the teams fortunes. The teams wouldn't be completely equal but let's be honest here, we are comparing a back to back President's trophy team to a team that hasn't made the playoffs in a while...one player isn't going to completely close the gap but a top goalie would make the gap pretty small (if you assume Lupul and Kessel can keep it up).

NOTE: As a Canucks fan, the reason I am not prepared to offer top 10 protection on a pick is that I wouldn't want to gamble on Kessel and Lupul putting up similar totals next year.

While I agree with you in theory, some things simply cannot be measured by looking at goals for and goals against stats. The Canucks are a far better team even if we had Reimer in net. I don't think many Leaf fans would argue that. But, with Luongo in net, I do sincerely believe the Leafs make the playoffs next season. The only protection I would give in the 1st is top 5 protection; if it's top 5 it is defered to the following year no exceptions.

Ho Borvat 12-03-2012 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJOpus (Post 56210093)
Last thread I made a comment that the Leafs would be almost as good as Vancouver if they got the goaltending that Vancouver got.

Here's how I came to that conclusion.

Last year, the Sedins, Kesler, Booth, Raymond, and basically everyone of the Canucks except Hansen had an off year. Blame the short off-season, blame bad coaching, blame injuries but that's what happened. In terms of goals for, the Canucks were tied for 4th and the Leafs were 9th.

I think going forward the Canucks have a better offense but last year it was pretty close because while the Canucks slumped, Kessel, Lupul and Bozak put up their best seasons ever by significant margins. As a Leaf fan, if you think that Kessel, Lupul, and Bozak will continue to do well while the Canucks stars will continue to not preform at or near their peak, I think its safe to assume that the Leafs will have similar offensive numbers to the Canucks.

Defensively, the Canucks allowed basically the same amount of shots and same amount of chances (yes people actually keep that stat) as the Leafs. The Canucks finished 4th in goals against while the Leafs finished 29th. This is the biggest difference between the two teams. Switch this around and the Leafs are competing for home ice while the Canucks are likely missing the playoffs.

Add empty net goals to the equation and things get even closer for goal for and further apart for goals against.

That's why I was saying that switching goalies would basically switch the teams fortunes. The teams wouldn't be completely equal but let's be honest here, we are comparing a back to back President's trophy team to a team that hasn't made the playoffs in a while...one player isn't going to completely close the gap but a top goalie would make the gap pretty small (if you assume Lupul and Kessel can keep it up).

NOTE: As a Canucks fan, the reason I am not prepared to offer top 10 protection on a pick is that I wouldn't want to gamble on Kessel and Lupul putting up similar totals next year.

A ways back someone was arguing that Schneider = Reimer and the difference was Reimer faced tougher shots.

Well they faced nearly an identical number of shots over an identical number of games so shot quality should normalize over time. Schneider had a significantly better save percentage,

The canucks leaned heavily on their goaltending because they could.

Henrik To Daniel 12-03-2012 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJOpus (Post 56210093)
Last thread I made a comment that the Leafs would be almost as good as Vancouver if they got the goaltending that Vancouver got.

Here's how I came to that conclusion.

Last year, the Sedins, Kesler, Booth, Raymond, and basically everyone of the Canucks except Hansen had an off year. Blame the short off-season, blame bad coaching, blame injuries but that's what happened. In terms of goals for, the Canucks were tied for 4th and the Leafs were 9th.

I think going forward the Canucks have a better offense but last year it was pretty close because while the Canucks slumped, Kessel, Lupul and Bozak put up their best seasons ever by significant margins. As a Leaf fan, if you think that Kessel, Lupul, and Bozak will continue to do well while the Canucks stars will continue to not preform at or near their peak, I think its safe to assume that the Leafs will have similar offensive numbers to the Canucks.

Defensively, the Canucks allowed basically the same amount of shots and same amount of chances (yes people actually keep that stat) as the Leafs. The Canucks finished 4th in goals against while the Leafs finished 29th. This is the biggest difference between the two teams. Switch this around and the Leafs are competing for home ice while the Canucks are likely missing the playoffs.

Add empty net goals to the equation and things get even closer for goal for and further apart for goals against.

That's why I was saying that switching goalies would basically switch the teams fortunes. The teams wouldn't be completely equal but let's be honest here, we are comparing a back to back President's trophy team to a team that hasn't made the playoffs in a while...one player isn't going to completely close the gap but a top goalie would make the gap pretty small (if you assume Lupul and Kessel can keep it up).

NOTE: As a Canucks fan, the reason I am not prepared to offer top 10 protection on a pick is that I wouldn't want to gamble on Kessel and Lupul putting up similar totals next year.

This is ridiculous. I will bet money that Lupul and Kessel had career years last year and will not replicate their seasons.

Also the Canucks would still win their division if they had Reimer in net. The Leafs probably squeak into the playoffs with Luongo.

Spazmatic Dan 12-03-2012 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJOpus (Post 56210093)
Last thread I made a comment that the Leafs would be almost as good as Vancouver if they got the goaltending that Vancouver got.

Here's how I came to that conclusion.

Last year, the Sedins, Kesler, Booth, Raymond, and basically everyone of the Canucks except Hansen had an off year. Blame the short off-season, blame bad coaching, blame injuries but that's what happened. In terms of goals for, the Canucks were tied for 4th and the Leafs were 9th.

I think going forward the Canucks have a better offense but last year it was pretty close because while the Canucks slumped, Kessel, Lupul and Bozak put up their best seasons ever by significant margins. As a Leaf fan, if you think that Kessel, Lupul, and Bozak will continue to do well while the Canucks stars will continue to not preform at or near their peak, I think its safe to assume that the Leafs will have similar offensive numbers to the Canucks.

Defensively, the Canucks allowed basically the same amount of shots and same amount of chances (yes people actually keep that stat) as the Leafs. The Canucks finished 4th in goals against while the Leafs finished 29th. This is the biggest difference between the two teams. Switch this around and the Leafs are competing for home ice while the Canucks are likely missing the playoffs.

Add empty net goals to the equation and things get even closer for goal for and further apart for goals against.

That's why I was saying that switching goalies would basically switch the teams fortunes. The teams wouldn't be completely equal but let's be honest here, we are comparing a back to back President's trophy team to a team that hasn't made the playoffs in a while...one player isn't going to completely close the gap but a top goalie would make the gap pretty small (if you assume Lupul and Kessel can keep it up).

NOTE: As a Canucks fan, the reason I am not prepared to offer top 10 protection on a pick is that I wouldn't want to gamble on Kessel and Lupul putting up similar totals next year.


I don't know about almost as good as Vancouver, but I do think it would make a major difference which is why Leafs fans (some I guess) are willing to give up assets despite contractual concerns which have been beaten to death endlessly.

The bolded part is exactly why the Leafs would want the pick protection. If we as fans were confident enough that the only way it would become a problem was by freak accident I don't think you'd see us asking for it. The uncertainty surrounding the team (especially depending on what we would need to give up) is why you see it requested.

doorman 12-03-2012 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel (Post 56212431)
This is ridiculous. I will bet money that Lupul and Kessel had career years last year and will not replicate their seasons.

Also the Canucks would still win their division if they had Reimer in net. The Leafs probably squeak into the playoffs with Luongo.

Ok, i could see your point with Lupul, sorta, but it isn't like he hasn't scored 20+ goals before, but point taken. But Kessel, seriously? Now I am not saying he is the best player in the league or anything like that, but he has averaged 34 goals a season. How do you not see him repeating his previous season?

Bourne Endeavor 12-03-2012 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel (Post 56212431)
This is ridiculous. I will bet money that Lupul and Kessel had career years last year and will not replicate their seasons.

Also the Canucks would still win their division if they had Reimer in net. The Leafs probably squeak into the playoffs with Luongo.

In fairness, we would win the division because there is virtually no one that can challenge us. Minnesota has the best shot but even that is unlikely. I'd take that bet though because I see both Kessel and Lupul having comparable seasons. Perhaps, not exact but hardly a huge drop off. It is why I want Lupul.

Fogelhund 12-03-2012 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel (Post 56212431)
This is ridiculous. I will bet money that Lupul and Kessel had career years last year and will not replicate their seasons.

Get them a real C, and they most certainly should.

Co Ho* 12-03-2012 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor (Post 56213035)
In fairness, we would win the division because there is virtually no one that can challenge us. Minnesota has the best shot but even that is unlikely. I'd take that bet though because I see both Kessel and Lupul having comparable seasons. Perhaps, not exact but hardly a huge drop off. It is why I want Lupul.

You never know when Edmonton will break out. Edmonton and Minnesota both have pretty decent chances at the playoffs. Colorado could be a bubble team (personally I don't see them making the playoffs, but I could be wrong).

bcjonny 12-03-2012 03:52 PM

Oh My ... Why does this thread keep sucking me back in...

I just do not believe that the TML's are a good trading partner for the playing services of Roberto Luongo. The compensation package would be significant and the TML's do not have the "expendable assets" to make it work.

On a selfish note I do not want to turn on the TV every Saturday to see #1 Luongo raising his arms and head butting the TML's after another victory. To make it worse will be to look at the dregs we were lucky to get ...

If we are going to take a haircut on this deal then Luongo will not be traded to a high visibilty market like Toronto where he will stand as a constant reminder of this.

And once again I am saddened by the disrespect shown to Luongo by the large number of posters on this board who quite frankly for the most part do not deserve to have him in the Blue and White. No one player alone has the potential to shift your teams fortunes more than Luongo yet you continue to offer crap.

If I were GMMG I would only make a deal that improves the team ... Komisarek, MacArthur, Connolly, Lombardi, Bozak, Frattin, Blacker, Liles, Franson, Ashton, Crabb, Kadri are not upgrades at any position over the person they may be displacing.

Cogburn 12-03-2012 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fogelhund (Post 56213129)
Get them a real C, and they most certainly should.

Grabovski is paid like a real C. :sarcasm:

In all seriousness though Colborne or Kadri were traded for and drafted respectively to be a top six center, and simply "getting" one that is ready is going to hurt short term if an option is even available. I'd say the same for a goalie, but one is available that can help change the team futures, and all we seem to hear is "his contract/age makes him useless".

(Naturally not you specifically, but I really don't think a lot of Leafs poster understand the situation we were in prior to getting Luongo...bare prospect cupboard, thanks Burke, and basically all offense and defense with no goal tending. He made our team successful when after the last season prior to getting him, we were lost.)

Jerkini 12-03-2012 04:16 PM

Quote:

On a selfish note I do not want to turn on the TV every Saturday to see #1 Luongo raising his arms and head butting the TML's after another victory. To make it worse will be to look at the dregs we were lucky to get ...
I think this is why any deal is unlikely to happen.

Fogelhund 12-03-2012 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerkini (Post 56214025)
I think this is why any deal is unlikely to happen.

Thankfully GM's don't operate this way, they just seek ways to improve their teams.

Spazmatic Dan 12-03-2012 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor (Post 56213035)
In fairness, we would win the division because there is virtually no one that can challenge us. Minnesota has the best shot but even that is unlikely. I'd take that bet though because I see both Kessel and Lupul having comparable seasons. Perhaps, not exact but hardly a huge drop off. It is why I want Lupul.

And also probably why Burke would want to keep him :laugh:.

Without him our scoring situation looks bleak unless we see a bounce back from Kulemin and a surge from Van Reimsdyk. Optimistic at best.

Spazmatic Dan 12-03-2012 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fogelhund (Post 56213129)
Get them a real C, and they most certainly should.

Get them a real C and I'd hope for improvement to be honest. ;)

Ho Borvat 12-03-2012 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan (Post 56214293)
And also probably why Burke would want to keep him :laugh:.

Without him our scoring situation looks bleak unless we see a bounce back from Kulemin and a surge from Van Reimsdyk. Optimistic at best.

This is why I dont see Lupul/Bozak as players Gillis would target.

Paying a premium on guys who just had career years.

I see him trying to buy low on guys like Kadri/Kulemin.

Bourne Endeavor 12-03-2012 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan (Post 56214293)
And also probably why Burke would want to keep him :laugh:.

Without him our scoring situation looks bleak unless we see a bounce back from Kulemin and a surge from Van Reimsdyk. Optimistic at best.

Oh, I don't doubt that and he should. Although, one has to believe Kulemin can rebound passed seven goals. :laugh:

Betting man that I am, I see it more likely Kadri++ happens for this very reason.

Bleach Clean 12-03-2012 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fogelhund (Post 56214173)
Thankfully GM's don't operate this way, they just seek ways to improve their teams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan (Post 56214305)
Get them a real C and I'd hope for improvement to be honest. ;)



What do you guys think Bozak is? 2C? 3C? Tweener? I'm surprised he can turn in a career year in points and people still see him as the weak link dragging that line down... What more do you think he could do?


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