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-   -   Value of: Ryane Clowe (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1300971)

Ho Borvat 12-03-2012 04:43 PM

Ryane Clowe
 
So what kind of value would San Jose be looking for to make Clowe expendable?

Obviously they are set down the middle and in no way are they rebuilding.

I think Clowe would look great next to the Sedins (move Burrows down and roll Booth, Kesler, Burrows).


Interesting point is, pieces acquired in a Luongo trade could be used towards a potential Clowe trade

If Vancouver were to acquire MacArthur in a Luongo trade would San Jose be willing to do

Clowe for MacA and Raymond? (2 40-50 point wingers to give them depth)?

Something like Hansen + Raymond? Just spitballin

Vankiller Whale 12-03-2012 04:55 PM

Something to keep in mind: Don't offer pieces that are not actually on the team yet, it is likely to annoy fans of the other team.

Hansen + Raymond has been a decent basis in past discussions, but I don't think it's worth the risk imo. He's on an expiring contract and will likely want more than he's worth. And there's no guarantee that he's able to maintain his reckless style of play for much longer. Not that he shouldn't command that much from prospective teams, I just don't think we should be the highest bidder if the Sharks looked to shop Clowe.

Ho Borvat 12-03-2012 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 56216271)
Something to keep in mind: Don't offer pieces that are not actually on the team yet, it is likely to annoy fans of the other team.

Hansen + Raymond has been a decent basis in past discussions, but I don't think it's worth the risk imo. He's on an expiring contract and will likely want more than he's worth. And there's no guarantee that he's able to maintain his reckless style of play for much longer. Not that he shouldn't command that much from prospective teams, I just don't think we should be the highest bidder if the Sharks looked to shop Clowe.

While I get that it's risky to trade 2 40-50 point players for 1 50 point player (on an expiring deal), we can mitigate that risk by either acquiring that 2nd tweeter player in a Luongo trade or replacing a guy like Hansen/Higgins in a potential Luongo trade.

Also in regards to him maintaining his play, the same could be said about a guy like Kesler or Burrows but it doesn't necessarily detract from their value.

Vankiller Whale 12-03-2012 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kack zassian (Post 56216373)
While I get that it's risky to trade 2 40-50 point players for 1 50 point player (on an expiring deal), we can mitigate that risk by either acquiring that 2nd tweeter player in a Luongo trade or replacing a guy like Hansen/Higgins in a potential Luongo trade.

I think we're better off with 3 40-50 point players than 1 40-50 point and 1 50-60(maybe) point player.

Quote:

Also in regards to him maintaining his play, the same could be said about a guy like Kesler or Burrows but it doesn't necessarily detract from their value.

I don't know, do you think SJ would be willing to give, say, Pavelski + Clowe for Kesler? Only a rough approximation of value, but it's a legitimate question if a player is coming off a low season and there are questions about his ability to return to his peak.

TheJuxtaposer 12-03-2012 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 56216449)
I don't know, do you think SJ would be willing to give, say, Pavelski + Clowe for Kesler? Only a rough approximation of value, but it's a legitimate question if a player is coming off a low season and there are questions about his ability to return to his peak.

No frakkin' way. :laugh:

Sharks4Life 12-03-2012 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 56216449)
I think we're better off with 3 40-50 point players than 1 40-50 point and 1 50-60(maybe) point player.




I don't know, do you think SJ would be willing to give, say, Pavelski + Clowe for Kesler? Only a rough approximation of value, but it's a legitimate question if a player is coming off a low season and there are questions about his ability to return to his peak.

I can tell you exactly what they would say....HELL NO!!!! /thread

Vankiller Whale 12-03-2012 05:14 PM

I rest my case. If the Sharks asked for Kesler, we'd be justified in asking for that, but it doesn't mean they'd be willing to give up that much depth for him, when it's questionable that he returns to 40-goal selke calibre form.

TheJuxtaposer 12-03-2012 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 56216621)
I rest my case. If the Sharks asked for Kesler, we'd be justified in asking for that, but it doesn't mean they'd be willing to give up that much depth for him, when it's questionable that he returns to 40-goal selke calibre form.

No you wouldn't.

Ho Borvat 12-03-2012 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharks4Life (Post 56216577)
I can tell you exactly what they would say....HELL NO!!!! /thread

That's kind of off topic.

What kind of return would Shark fans be looking for for Clowe?

Ho Borvat 12-03-2012 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 56216621)
I rest my case. If the Sharks asked for Kesler, we'd be justified in asking for that, but it doesn't mean they'd be willing to give up that much depth for him, when it's questionable that he returns to 40-goal selke calibre form.

I doubt Shark fans would have done that even when Kesler did win the Selke...

Vankiller Whale 12-03-2012 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer (Post 56216653)
No you wouldn't.

Well, that's the point. If we assume Kesler will return to 2011-Kesler, we certainly would. If he ends up being simply marginally better than Pavelski, then we wouldn't.

Similarly, if Clowe bounces back, he would command more than Hansen + Raymond. But if he simply ends up being a slower, older, but slightly more physical/talented version of Hansen, then we would be right to not go through with this trade, especially given Clowe's contract status.

TheJuxtaposer 12-03-2012 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kack zassian (Post 56216695)
That's kind of off topic.

What kind of return would Shark fans be looking for for Clowe?

This thread has been rehashed over an over again, but here it is:

1. A different top-6 forward with different attributes. Ie someone who is faster and better defensively, but not physical or mean like Clowe.

2. A 2nd/3rd line tweener and a solid third line player. No, Mason Raymond doesn't count as either of those.

Sharks4Life 12-03-2012 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kack zassian (Post 56216695)
That's kind of off topic.

What kind of return would Shark fans be looking for for Clowe?

Off topic like a vancouver fan turning what was already a joke of a proposal into an even bigger joke of a proposal on a thread about a potential trade between vancouver and sj where clowe was involved....to answer your question i don't know about other sharks fans but i'm not thrilled about the idea of trading clowe unless its more a 1 for 1 deal with even value.

TheJuxtaposer 12-03-2012 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 56216783)
Well, that's the point. If we assume Kesler will return to 2011-Kesler, we certainly would. If he ends up being simply marginally better than Pavelski, then we wouldn't.

Similarly, if Clowe bounces back, he would command more than Hansen + Raymond. But if he simply ends up being a slower, older, but slightly more physical version of Hansen, then we would be right to not go through with this trade, especially given Clowe's contract status.

No, you wouldn't. 2011-Kesler was an anomaly. He's a marginally better player than Pavelski, I'd say only because of size and speed, who benefitted from Malhotra and some good percentages.

Bourne Endeavor 12-03-2012 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 56216271)
Something to keep in mind: Don't offer pieces that are not actually on the team yet, it is likely to annoy fans of the other team.

Hansen + Raymond has been a decent basis in past discussions, but I don't think it's worth the risk imo. He's on an expiring contract and will likely want more than he's worth. And there's no guarantee that he's able to maintain his reckless style of play for much longer. Not that he shouldn't command that much from prospective teams, I just don't think we should be the highest bidder if the Sharks looked to shop Clowe.

Problem is what we get from other teams is likely what we would end up giving up. Kadri comes to mind for instance. Otherwise, I feel the cost wouldn't be worth the gain.

Ho Borvat 12-03-2012 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer (Post 56216805)
This thread has been rehashed over an over again, but here it is:

1. A different top-6 forward with different attributes. Ie someone who is faster and better defensively, but not physical or mean like Clowe.

2. A 2nd/3rd line tweener and a solid third line player. No, Mason Raymond doesn't count as either of those.

So what about something along the lines of

San Jose
Clarke MacArthur
Chris Higgins

Toronto
Roberto Luongo

Vancouver
Ryane Clowe
+ some combo Canucks/Leafs fans won't agree on ever

Ho Borvat 12-03-2012 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharks4Life (Post 56216845)
Off topic like a vancouver fan turning what was already a joke of a proposal into an even bigger joke of a proposal on a thread about a potential trade between vancouver and sj where clowe was involved....to answer your question i don't know about other sharks fans but i'm not thrilled about the idea of trading clowe unless its more a 1 for 1 deal with even value.

It looks like a lack of hockey has made you mad/irritable.

Sharks4Life 12-03-2012 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 56216621)
I rest my case. If the Sharks asked for Kesler, we'd be justified in asking for that, but it doesn't mean they'd be willing to give up that much depth for him, when it's questionable that he returns to 40-goal selke calibre form.

No you wouldn't be justified in saying that at any point cause that is a crazy overpayment so your point really has no grounds as you haven't given a comparable situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 56216783)
Well, that's the point. If we assume Kesler will return to 2011-Kesler, we certainly would. If he ends up being simply marginally better than Pavelski, then we wouldn't.

Similarly, if Clowe bounces back, he would command more than Hansen + Raymond. But if he simply ends up being a slower, older, but slightly more physical/talented version of Hansen, then we would be right to not go through with this trade, especially given Clowe's contract status.

So you seem to think that trades should only be made based off of knowing the future which is so backwards.

Sharks4Life 12-03-2012 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kack zassian (Post 56216981)
It looks like a lack of hockey has made you mad/irritable.

I will give you that good sir. :handclap:

jpchabby 12-03-2012 05:38 PM

Personnally i'd like a big guy like Clowe on the habs.

What are SJ's needs?

Vankiller Whale 12-03-2012 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer (Post 56216911)
No, you wouldn't. 2011-Kesler was an anomaly. He's a marginally better player than Pavelski, I'd say only because of size and speed, who benefitted from Malhotra and some good percentages.

My point is that imo the odds Kesler returns to peak for is similar to the odds that Clowe returns to peak form, which is why I'm loathe to give up that much value, just like you would be to try to get Kesler.

I'm not saying Kesler right now would garner that return; he wouldn't. But the reason is because it's highly unlikely he reaches his peak again, and I feel similarly about Clowe.

Factor in contracts and it's a solid no to the OP, imo.

Ho Borvat 12-03-2012 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 56217247)
My point is that imo the odds Kesler returns to peak for is similar to the odds that Clowe returns to peak form, which is why I'm loathe to give up that much value, just like you would be to try to get Kesler.

I'm not saying Kesler right now would garner that return; he wouldn't. But the reason is because it's highly unlikely he reaches his peak again, and I feel similarly about Clowe.

Factor in contracts and it's a solid no to the OP, imo.

I know his last season wasn't amazing by any stretch, but really its not like the season was terrible.

If he plays like he did last season, he still is te best option for the final top-6 winger spot.

And thats worst case scenario.

DuckEatinShark 12-03-2012 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 56216449)
I think we're better off with 3 40-50 point players than 1 40-50 point and 1 50-60(maybe) point player.




I don't know, do you think SJ would be willing to give, say, Pavelski + Clowe for Kesler? Only a rough approximation of value, but it's a legitimate question if a player is coming off a low season and there are questions about his ability to return to his peak.

No way. Kesler is a little better than Pavelski but he's getting paid more. Their difference in value certainly isn't Clowe. Also we need wingers, not centers, and Pavelski has been a good 1st line winger despite playing out of his natural position. Not sure if Kesler can play wing, so why take the chance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpchabby (Post 56217227)
Personnally i'd like a big guy like Clowe on the habs.

What are SJ's needs?

See below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer (Post 56216805)
This thread has been rehashed over an over again, but here it is:

1. A different top-6 forward with different attributes. Ie someone who is faster and better defensively, but not physical or mean like Clowe.

2. A 2nd/3rd line tweener and a solid third line player. No, Mason Raymond doesn't count as either of those.

Sums it up quite nicely, although I prefer someone with more goal-scoring ability than defense, just in case Havlat gets hurt and the top-line goes cold in the scoring dept.

I don't think there is a Clowe-to-Habs deal that is feasible for both sides.

Kitten Mittons 12-03-2012 08:02 PM

Pavelski+Clowe for Kesler = Kesler+Burrows for Pavelski

Ridiculous both ways.

WTFetus 12-04-2012 12:28 AM

I'd be fine with any of the two proposals in the OP (MacA and Raymond or Raymond and Hansen). I'm not a huge fan of Clowe anyway.


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