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-   -   Satan vs Vanek (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1301649)

Christian Litscher 12-05-2012 11:38 AM

Satan vs Vanek
 
Who was the better Sabre?

Myllz 12-05-2012 12:01 PM

This isn't going to be at all close.

stokes84 12-05-2012 12:23 PM

Gotta go with Satan. We got to a cup final with him as our best scorer. We rarely make the playoffs with Vanek as one of our top forwards.

stokes84 12-05-2012 12:27 PM

Wow, I thought this was going to be lopsided in Satan's direction.

Christian Litscher 12-05-2012 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myllz (Post 56262425)
This isn't going to be at all close.

Looks that way. Sorry if this was a bad poll.

I thought it would be closer, they put up similar numbers, but Satan played on worse teams and in the DPE. He also led the Sabres in scoring 3 times to Vanek's 1.

kcoxsabresfan 12-05-2012 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColAvsFan (Post 56261719)
Who was the better Sabre?

This is tough. Vanek scores a lot, but Satan has all of those magical evil powers and fire and stuff...

Myllz 12-05-2012 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stokes84 (Post 56263043)
Gotta go with Satan. We got to a cup final with him as our best scorer. We rarely make the playoffs with Vanek as one of our top forwards.

That's a pretty bad argument. The main reason we got a cup final was Hasek. Put Vanek on that '99 team instead of Satan and they're a better squad.

Silence Of The Plams 12-05-2012 02:05 PM

Both are good players but I think Satan was better

all hail Satan

slip 12-05-2012 02:06 PM

Tough call. Very similar players. Edge Satan.

New Sabres Captain 12-05-2012 02:27 PM

Satan definitely wore out his welcome by the end. I wonder if that's a big reason why he's losing this one.

stokes84 12-05-2012 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myllz (Post 56265291)
That's a pretty bad argument. The main reason we got a cup final was Hasek. Put Vanek on that '99 team instead of Satan and they're a better squad.

No. Satan put up similar numbers to Vanek in the dead puck era. He was the better player.

Moskau 12-05-2012 02:58 PM

Satan by a slim margin for me. I had a long reply typed out but it was eaten.

Basically before Satan's disgusting 2003 season where he gave zero ****s and alienated himself from fans and teammates he was better at almost every facet of the game than Vanek. He molded himself into a above average two way player. Something I don't see Vanek ever doing. Vanek to me just has too much trouble meshing with his line mates, nothing is ever "right" for him. At some point you have to stop blaming Lindy Ruff and realize that Vanek is just not that versatile. Something I considered Satan to be.

With that said they're both fairly close. If I was doing an expansion draft I wouldn't touch either player though. Maybe that's just me.

SackTastic 12-05-2012 03:02 PM

Miro Satan didn't play one second of defensive hockey during his career.

Satan might have been a slightly more gifted offensive player than Vanek, although I'm not sure I'd agree with that, but I feel that Vanek is a better all around player.

Moskau 12-05-2012 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beechsack (Post 56268529)
Miro Satan didn't play one second of defensive hockey during his career.

Uhhh... what.

Duddy 12-05-2012 03:04 PM

You should'Ve made a Drury vs. Briere poll, but I doubt someone has the guts to do it.

It's close, but I add the ZOMG Vaneks Austrian bias and go with him.

SackTastic 12-05-2012 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moskau (Post 56268621)
Uhhh... what.

Maybe a smidge of hyperbole, but Satan was not very interested in playing defense most nights here. He started to develop that late in his career, but not so much in a Sabres uniform.

Myllz 12-05-2012 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moskau (Post 56268409)
Satan by a slim margin for me. I had a long reply typed out but it was eaten.

Basically before Satan's disgusting 2003 season where he gave zero ****s and alienated himself from fans and teammates he was better at almost every facet of the game than Vanek. He molded himself into a above average two way player. Something I don't see Vanek ever doing. Vanek to me just has too much trouble meshing with his line mates, nothing is ever "right" for him. At some point you have to stop blaming Lindy Ruff and realize that Vanek is just not that versatile. Something I considered Satan to be.

With that said they're both fairly close. If I was doing an expansion draft I wouldn't touch either player though. Maybe that's just me.

You're describing Satan with that? Really? The only way describing Satan as a two-way player works is if the offensive zone is one way and the bench is the other. In that case, yes, Satan was a fantastic two-way player.

stokes84 12-05-2012 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beechsack (Post 56269015)
Maybe a smidge of hyperbole, but Satan was not very interested in playing defense most nights here. He started to develop that late in his career, but not so much in a Sabres uniform.

Problem is, we are comparing him to Vanek who plays even less defensive hockey.

SackTastic 12-05-2012 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stokes84 (Post 56269311)
Problem is, we are comparing him to Vanek who plays even less defensive hockey.

Very much disagree with that, but not worth starting an argument over.

New Sabres Captain 12-05-2012 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stokes84 (Post 56269311)
Problem is, we are comparing him to Vanek who plays even less defensive hockey.

No one is going to confuse Vanek with any sort of defensive genius...but if we were to measure Forward Defensive Aptitude in Satans, Vanek is at least 3 Satans (Hecht maybe a few thousands for comparison).

Woodhouse 12-05-2012 06:01 PM

I gave the slight edge to Satan, but I could easily flip-flop on this one. Miro edges him in skill, got more minutes, way more PK time and had a lesser supporting cast in a defensive system during the dead puck era; meanwhile Vanek does have the greater offensive numbers (TGF, PGF) despite less TOI and also has less TGA despite no Hasek or dead puck era.

(Hockey-Reference: Satan's stats and Vanek's stats.)

whiplash 12-05-2012 11:01 PM

Objectively, Vanek but absence makes the heart grow fonder and my nostalgia says Satan. I abstain from voting until a viable third party is introduced

HiddenInLight 12-06-2012 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcoxsabresfan (Post 56263273)
This is tough. Vanek scores a lot, but Satan has all of those magical evil powers and fire and stuff...

Satan would probably melt the ice....=/

Corto 12-06-2012 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beechsack (Post 56268529)
Miro Satan didn't play one second of defensive hockey during his career.

Satan was part of an excellent PK unit for most of his Buffalo career, paired for large parts of it with Curtis Brown.

He was also VERY responsible at ES, and his entire reputation as a lazy mofo came from his last season in Buffalo.

Watching games > hearing something from a random person about a player.

dire wolf 12-06-2012 05:42 PM

There is no way to know if Satan was actually a good penalty killer or not, since he was backstopped by Hasek. I certainly don't remember him for his defense, and I doubt he was any better defensively than Vanek. Both of these guys are valuable for one thing only - scoring.

Satan and Vanek each played 7 full seasons for the Sabres (I'm not counting the 12 games Satan played in '96-97).

Here are Satan's rankings in the league for Goals and Points for each year (I think that's the best way to compare offensive players across eras, since scoring changes over time):

'97-'98:
Goals: tied for 55th
Points: tied for 84th

98-99:
Goals: tied for 25th
Points: tied for 7th

99-00:
Goals: tied for 32nd
Points: tied for 16th

00-01:
Goals: tied for 45th
Points: tied for 61st

01-02:
Goals: tied for 9th
Points: tied for 17th

02-03:
Goals: tied for 45th
Points: 23rd

03-04:
Goals: tied for 21st
Points: tied for 41st

AVERAGE:
Goals: 33rd
Points: 36th


Here are Vanek's rankings:

05-06
Goals: tied for 69th
Points: tied for 137th

06-07:
Goals: tied for 5th
Points: tied for 19th

07-08:
Goals: 13th
Points: 52nd

08-09:
Goals: tied for 5th
Points: tied for 51st

09-10:
Goals: tied for 31st
Points: tied for 78th

10-11:
Goals: tied for 14th
Points: tied for 15th

11-12:
Goals: tied for 45th
Points: tied for 49th

AVERAGE:
Goals: 26
Points: 57

However, if you throw out Vanek's rookie year, which was easily his worst, his rankings improve to:
Goals: 18.8
Points: 44

Throwing out Satan's worst year (which isn't as relevant since it wasn't his rookie year), doesn't change his numbers much.

I understand this isn't scientific, but it suggests that: (a) Vanek is a better goal scorer; (b) Satan got more assists; (c) the numbers are closer than I would have thought; and (d) Vanek is more inconsistent than Satan but is capable of being one of the elite scorers in the league. i.e., his best is better than Satan's best.


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