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-   -   Mika Zibanejad is the real deal 2.0 (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1301913)

CanadianHockey 12-05-2012 08:40 PM

Continue here.

Senacus Maximus 12-05-2012 10:25 PM

Dat Zibanejad.

Xspyrit 12-05-2012 11:24 PM

What I really learn in life is :

Human being judges very quickly, understands slowly

I just got another proof today in the older thread. All that time invested and I'm sure no progression has been made. Bah anyway, at least there's people more open minded.

Just to be clear, my expectations for Zibanejad aren't sky high and certainly not out of bounds compared to what the majority of the hockey world thinks. I'm hoping for a 20-30/20-30 production per 82 games out of Zibanejad, if he pans out... a 40-60 pts producer is too much to hope from a 6th overall pick? (even if he busts, I don't care much anyway to be honest, I'm not a fanatic, hockey will always just be an entertainment)

I'm hoping for a different impact than just points from Zibanejad. A Fisher/Michalek like impact

But ya those lofty expectations are of the rose color glasses kool-aid drinking jerking camels posterboys prospects worshippers kind? No?

:sarcasm:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATdaisuki (Post 56279991)
or we could attribute it to muckler because murray wasn't a gm the season before the draft, so he had done no scouting work and had to rely on the scouting work of the mucklar regime.

edit: the noob is slow

Maybe you're a "noob" but you at least understand the basics...

hockeyalltheway 12-06-2012 08:33 AM

Zibanejad will get his points. He's getting chances - only a matter of time until he buries some.

John Holmes* 12-06-2012 09:56 AM

So it seems like the NHL is getting close to working things out. Does Zbad go to the pro camp or do you leave him in Bingo for the year?

Tuna99 12-06-2012 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Holmes (Post 56295395)

So it seems like the NHL is getting close to working things out. Does Zbad go to the pro camp or do you leave him in Bingo for the year?

Invite him to camp and then send him down, he has a lot of work to do on his game and maybe sending that message to him very clearly will be the best thing for him. Let him take on more of a leadership roll in Bingo with Boro, Silf and Stone in the NHL - this worked with Spezza, O'Brien - need to send a message to Zibby that his coddling time is coming to and end and it's time for him to take control of his game and his line

Suiteness 12-06-2012 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna99 (Post 56295613)
Invite him to camp and then send him down, he has a lot of work to do on his game and maybe sending that message to him very clearly will be the best thing for him. Let him take on more of a leadership roll in Bingo with Boro, Silf and Stone in the NHL - this worked with Spezza, O'Brien - need to send a message to Zibby that his coddling time is coming to and end and it's time for him to take control of his game and his line

Wouldn't it make more sense NOT to invite him to camp? It's quite clear he has no business being in the NHL so let's not waste everyone's time and let him work out his stuff down there.

Tyskie 12-06-2012 11:40 AM

Does anyone remember the rumors that NJ was interested in Zibanejad as a surprise pick at #4? Of course then Larsson fell to them and that was that. But at that point is Zib was the surprise riser in his draft, and taking at #6 was not a mistake imo.

We saw something similar this year with Anaheim taking Hampus Lindholm at#6.

LeTigre 12-06-2012 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeamRenzo (Post 56297641)
From my perspective it doesnt sound like Zib is going to be worth the 6th overall pick but I have faith in BM and his scouting team so I will remain patient.

Looking at the "Sens in 5 years" thread it is clear to me that the fans on this site seriously over value our prospects.

Depends on what the value of a 6th overall pick is. Perhaps fans on this site overvalue the 6th?

For example, the only forwards picked at 6 over the last decade to hit their stride were Mikko Koivu (roughly 20/50/solid two way at his peak) and Milan Michalek (roughly 30/30/solid two way at his peak).

Could Zibanejad perform like those two at his peak? I see no reason why not. He has the defensive acumen already, and the physicality as well. He has a quiver of offensive tools that admittedly need to be refined, but that are present (elite one timer, above average snapper/wrister, outside speed, ability to forecheck and turn over pucks). And remember, the kid is a teen, and has plenty of time to develop said tools in a development-friendly system.

Anyone remember the preseason last year when Zibanejad scored three NHL-calibre goals and had a fourth arbitrarily disallowed? The assertions that he can't score at the AHL level are very premature. He's stuck at one for now; then again Karlsson was stuck at one for the longest time last year, and look what happened. He figured it out and began to convert. I'm confident that Mika can open the floodgates and start putting his chances post and in rather than post and out.

All in all, he projects to be a real NHL player, and for a 6th, I'm content.

sg58 12-06-2012 12:22 PM

Zibanejad will most likely be a good pick as far as the average 6th-ish pick go, being a third liner or better is more than OK from that position.

The thing most are debating, however, is whether the guys passed on (Couturier, Hamilton) would've been better choices.

Agreed on the fact that people tend to have too high projections.

derriko 12-06-2012 01:06 PM

I wonder how many points Mika would have on a junior team. Nobody ever mentions Mark Scheifele as well. They had very similar stats in their NHL tryouts. Mika had one goal, and was minus three (we were terrible to start) in nine games. Scheifele had one assist and was even in 7 games (I believe the jets started out hot)

I seem to recall Scheifele getting a ton of praise for his stint, yet he only produced one point. Now he has 44 points in 27 games this year on Barrie.

The point im trying to make is that if Mika was in junior, he would probably be over a ppg to say the least. Hell...Culek is a ppg player in juniors. Assuming Mika ends up with about .5 ppg this season in the AHL, I would consider that a better season than 1.5 ppg in juniors. And I doubt anybody is complaining about Scheifele's production.

LeTigre 12-06-2012 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steffeG (Post 56300039)
Zibanejad will most likely be a good pick as far as the average 6th-ish pick go, being a third liner or better is more than OK from that position.

The thing most are debating, however, is whether the guys passed on (Couturier, Hamilton) would've been better choices.

Agreed on the fact that people tend to have too high projections.

I think our fanbase was expecting a top-3 pick for much of that dreadful season, and yet when we got Mika at 6th, he was, and still is being held against the standard of that top-3 ish pick that we all yearned for.

It could very well be that the players we passed over end up being gems. Maybe Couturier outscores Zibanejad over the course of their careers. Perhaps Dougie becomes the future captain of the Bruins and leads them to success from the blueline. Then again, half the league passed over Erik Karlsson. You win some, you lose some.

We can't change the past. But we can be patient with Mika and hope that once Karlsson, Cowen, Lehner, Silfverberg, and Turris, among others, really hit their collective stride, Mika is right there filling a need with this team. If that happens and we become a contender, individual Zibanejad vs. Couturier/Hamilton comparisons will mean less and less.

Minister of Offence 12-06-2012 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steffeG (Post 56300039)
Zibanejad will most likely be a good pick as far as the average 6th-ish pick go, being a third liner or better is more than OK from that position.

The thing most are debating, however, is whether the guys passed on (Couturier, Hamilton) would've been better choices.

Agreed on the fact that people tend to have too high projections.

Scouts get a lot of credit for bringing in talent that makes a different now. Just like cash on hand for a business is better than than cash later.

Couturier is cash now. It's hard to argue he would not have been the better pick. It also doesn't make sense to cling to your own guy til the death, it's normal in the draft. The important thing is even your worst picks in the first round become good players...and the odd one hits big. I'm not so concerned with one pick as I am with our scouting in general...and for that draft it appears we were very high on Strome. I'm pretty interested to see what comes of him in relation to other players although he's under different hands development-wise. Although the Isles have had some problems in the past that way, Travis Hamonic has turned out fine. Same with JT, although I'm not sure anyone could have messed that up.

sg58 12-06-2012 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minister of Offence (Post 56301423)
Scouts get a lot of credit for bringing in talent that makes a different now. Just like cash on hand for a business is better than than cash later.

Couturier is cash now. It's hard to argue he would not have been the better pick. It also doesn't make sense to cling to your own guy til the death, it's normal in the draft. The important thing is even your worst picks in the first round become good players...and the odd one hits big. I'm not so concerned with one pick as I am with our scouting in general...and for that draft it appears we were very high on Strome. I'm pretty interested to see what comes of him in relation to other players although he's under different hands development-wise. Although the Isles have had some problems in the past that way, Travis Hamonic has turned out fine. Same with JT, although I'm not sure anyone could have messed that up.

The reason I and others keep pointing to Couturier's rookie season when comparing the two is that Zibanejad will be hard-pressed to ever duplicate it, it was a hell of a season not even considering his rookie status, and I don't think there are any indication that would be his worst season or unsustainable for Couturier. Most signs point towards him being the far better player, despite how early some might think it is to say that.

And 20% of forwards in Ziba range turn out to be absolutely nothing, as in not NHLers, on average. A third of them become career bottom-6ers.

Xspyrit 12-06-2012 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steffeG (Post 56300039)
Zibanejad will most likely be a good pick as far as the average 6th-ish pick go, being a third liner or better is more than OK from that position.

The thing most are debating, however, is whether the guys passed on (Couturier, Hamilton) would've been better choices.

Agreed on the fact that people tend to have too high projections.

ANd it's ok to debate it... as long as people are aware that it is only speculation... but some people talk like they have a crystal ball and like it was all set in stone... which is utterly ridiculous to me.

Xspyrit 12-06-2012 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steffeG (Post 56302023)
The reason I and others keep pointing to Couturier's rookie season when comparing the two is that Zibanejad will be hard-pressed to ever duplicate it, it was a hell of a season not even considering his rookie status, and I don't think there are any indication that would be his worst season or unsustainable for Couturier. Most signs point towards him being the far better player, despite how early some might think it is to say that.

And 20% of forwards in Ziba range turn out to be absolutely nothing, as in not NHLers, on average. A third of them become career bottom-6ers.

I'm thinking Couturier go overated and brought to hero status but I'm not sure why... Yes, he's already a quality player but all the Flyers games I watched (only vs Habs & Sens since I don't pay for NHLCI anymore), I was not that impressed.

I remember Chris Kelly rookie season, he was very good defensively too and produced more points with LESS ice-time. Sure Chris was a bit older but Couturier wasn't close to Landeskog and Henrique status IMO. (Ok going to repeat for the slow people : IMO)

SixthSens 12-06-2012 02:13 PM

Please keep the discussion relevant to the subject of the thread title.

wubwubwubwub 12-06-2012 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steffeG (Post 56302023)
The reason I and others keep pointing to Couturier's rookie season when comparing the two is that Zibanejad will be hard-pressed to ever duplicate it, it was a hell of a season not even considering his rookie status, and I don't think there are any indication that would be his worst season or unsustainable for Couturier. Most signs point towards him being the far better player, despite how early some might think it is to say that.

And 20% of forwards in Ziba range turn out to be absolutely nothing, as in not NHLers, on average. A third of them become career bottom-6ers.

Mika Zibanejad will be hard pressed to ever have a season in which he is gets 31 points in 88 games while playing solid D.
Really.
That's what we're saying now?

Ok.

Mac wanted Zibanejad to remain as a 2/3 C last year, and if he had, almost by default he would have gotten 20-30 points just being on the ice that much. You know why Couturier is considered insurmountably better by a select few? Because he played in the NHL. Because he made the NHL. Couturier was NHL ready whereas Zibanejad was the biggest project in the top 9. The fact that some people expect him to develop at a rate that eclipses all other prospects is what upsets me. #6 is not drafted ahead of #7, 8 or 9 just because he's better right now. In fact he could be much worse. Yet we do not seem to consider this fact whatsoever.

PS, I'd much rather have Hamilton than Zibanejad but I also don't really give a crap.

Minister of Offence 12-06-2012 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steffeG (Post 56302023)
The reason I and others keep pointing to Couturier's rookie season when comparing the two is that Zibanejad will be hard-pressed to ever duplicate it, it was a hell of a season not even considering his rookie status, and I don't think there are any indication that would be his worst season or unsustainable for Couturier. Most signs point towards him being the far better player, despite how early some might think it is to say that.

And 20% of forwards in Ziba range turn out to be absolutely nothing, as in not NHLers, on average. A third of them become career bottom-6ers.

You're speaking on a site where people live and die by point totals and you have the audacity to say this?!?!?!?

Seriously though, I'm not so sure about that. There's not much indication that Z won't be a very good two-way player with the upside to put up more than 13 goals and 27 points...even if he doesn't put up outstanding numbers.

Can't fathom feeling crazy for suggesting that realistic possibility.

sg58 12-06-2012 02:59 PM

Minister of Offence: Was talking about his season as a whole, not his point totals. Obviously I think Zibanejad can score 27 points at some point. There's a difference playing in Couturier's role and in an offensive, sheltered role.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The OttoMan Lion (Post 56305297)
Mika Zibanejad will be hard pressed to ever have a season in which he is gets 31 points in 88 games while playing solid D.
Really.
That's what we're saying now?

Ok.

PS, I'd much rather have Hamilton than Zibanejad but I also don't really give a crap.

Couturier was the #1 defensive forward, i.e. played the toughest minutes on that team. He put up 31 points with low-level skill and little-to-none PP time. It's damn impressive, and "hard-pressed" might've been excessive but if one of our prospects would go on to do that in his career we should be damn happy wherever he was picked.

Zibanejad was considered one of the most NHL-ready prospects in the draft. I don't know what is meant by "raw" and "project" here, because being more physically developed should mean he's less of a project, and closer to where he should be.

Minister of Offence 12-06-2012 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steffeG (Post 56305809)
Couturier was the #1 defensive forward, i.e. played the toughest minutes on that team. He put up 31 points with low-level skill and little-to-none PP time. It's damn impressive, and "hard-pressed" might've been excessive but if one of our prospects would go on to do that in his career we should be damn happy wherever he was picked.

Zibanejad was considered one of the most NHL-ready prospects in the draft. I don't know what is meant by "raw" and "project" here, because being more physically developed should mean he's less of a project, and closer to where he should be.

He was ready to play defensive hockey in the NHL last year. That's what NHL ready meant. If you wanted offense, he needed time to see if that would come.

Once again, he was rotating with Spezza in his last game into OT in the regular season. Can't think MacLean had Smith on the bench just to boost Zibanejad's confidence in the regular season when he may have already known he was going back regardless. MacLean wanted to keep him.

BK201 12-06-2012 03:02 PM

Starting to believe the most overrated prospect on this board is Sean Couturier.

Still not in love with him as much as you guys..

sg58 12-06-2012 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minister of Offence (Post 56305991)
He was ready to play defensive hockey in the NHL last year. That's what NHL ready meant. If you wanted offense, he needed time to see if that would come.

Once again, he was rotating with Spezza in his last game into OT in the regular season. Can't think MacLean had Smith on the bench just to boost Zibanejad's confidence in the regular season when he may have already known he was going back regardless. MacLean wanted to keep him.

Either that or they wanted to test him out in key situations before a decision had to be made, or he just felt at the time Zibanejad would give them a better chance to win. I don't know if Paul MacLean telling the media that he wanted him to stay means that he would've been a key player for the Sens, as Couturier was for the Flyers.

And, sorry for people getting tired of Couturier vs. Zibanejad discussion, but if the discussion is there, I want to chime in. ;)

wubwubwubwub 12-06-2012 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steffeG (Post 56305809)
Minister of Offence: Was talking about his season as a whole, not his point totals. Obviously I think Zibanejad can score 27 points at some point. There's a difference playing in Couturier's role and in an offensive, sheltered role.



Couturier was the #1 defensive forward, i.e. played the toughest minutes on that team. He put up 31 points with low-level skill and little-to-none PP time. It's damn impressive, and "hard-pressed" might've been excessive but if one of our prospects would go on to do that in his career we should be damn happy wherever he was picked.

Zibanejad was considered one of the most NHL-ready prospects in the draft. I don't know what is meant by "raw" and "project" here, because being more physically developed should mean he's less of a project, and closer to where he should be.

Couturier had a very impressive season. I never said anything else.
As for Zibanejad being one of the most NHL ready prospects - sure, maybe physically, but he was a guy who jumped 20 spots in a matter of months due to a new found offensive flair. His offensive skill was so incredibly raw and he was most definitely referred to as a project. I sense a little revisionist history here. Couturier was supposed to go #1 overall, largely because of his NHL readiness. Zibanejad had just jumped 20 spots because he displayed a flash of raw offensive ability.
If you can't distinguish the difference there I have nothing left to say. Hell, at this point I expect Couturier to be a bit better but your side of this argument is equally ludicrous as saying Zibanejad will definitely be better than Sean.

BK201 12-06-2012 03:14 PM

Yes thank you guys i now know Couturier was Key player for the flyers it's too bad we don't already have 27 points 3rd liner rookies with strong defensive games....

O wait that style of player is about all we have. :0

Edit: not to come off as a jerk haha just saying.


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